Garak, I believe there may be some "cultural difference" regarding law enforcement between Canada and the U.S.? Police in urban U.S. cities like Baltimore, Newark, Chicago, Miami, Detroit, St Louis, ect... need to get the guns out of the criminals hands.
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Why good cops can't turn in bad cops
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Originally Posted By: qwerty1234
Garak, I believe there may be some "cultural difference" regarding law enforcement between Canada and the U.S.? Police in urban U.S. cities like Baltimore, Newark, Chicago, Miami, Detroit, St Louis, ect... need to get the guns out of the criminals hands.
Cleveland here, and every year or so they have a gun buy back program for working guns. It's a decent amount of money per gun. I think it's even more for rifles iirc.
edit: $100 Shell card.
http://www.clevelandpolicefoundation.org/handgun-buyback/
Garak, I believe there may be some "cultural difference" regarding law enforcement between Canada and the U.S.? Police in urban U.S. cities like Baltimore, Newark, Chicago, Miami, Detroit, St Louis, ect... need to get the guns out of the criminals hands.
Cleveland here, and every year or so they have a gun buy back program for working guns. It's a decent amount of money per gun. I think it's even more for rifles iirc.
edit: $100 Shell card.
http://www.clevelandpolicefoundation.org/handgun-buyback/
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: qwerty1234
Garak, I believe there may be some "cultural difference" regarding law enforcement between Canada and the U.S.? Police in urban U.S. cities like Baltimore, Newark, Chicago, Miami, Detroit, St Louis, ect... need to get the guns out of the criminals hands.
Let's not forget they need to get the cars out of the hands of drunks.
Garak, I believe there may be some "cultural difference" regarding law enforcement between Canada and the U.S.? Police in urban U.S. cities like Baltimore, Newark, Chicago, Miami, Detroit, St Louis, ect... need to get the guns out of the criminals hands.
Let's not forget they need to get the cars out of the hands of drunks.
Back to the original post. Cops and criminals have a lot more in common than people realize. In the hood, it's a "no snitching" mentality. Similar to the "thin blue line" or whatever. I think police are taught to always support each other & will often look the other way when abuse happens.
Varies department by department. A friend of mine works for a department where officers who violate are very quickly forced into unemployment or worse. It's a good policy because even though some really messed up stuff has gone on, decisive action, open disclosure, and denouncement of such activity has prevented such things from blowing up in the media over controversy. News stories about the police doing the right thing in an expedient manner are very unsexy to the media, and instills confidence that justice is indeed for all.
This is true, we only hear about the poorly run departments in the media today, even though I would bet that the majority are run in a professional manner, not only that if other officers are violating department procedures and policies (or even criminal actions) other officers will quickly report it and have the issue dealt with.
Being in law enforcement can be one of the toughest jobs you can find. Often times you are [censored] if you do and [censored] it you don't.
One thing is true though, many of these folks that despise the PD are the first ones to call for the smallest issues and will complain to no end if things don't go their way, even if legally they are wrong.
Being in law enforcement can be one of the toughest jobs you can find. Often times you are [censored] if you do and [censored] it you don't.
One thing is true though, many of these folks that despise the PD are the first ones to call for the smallest issues and will complain to no end if things don't go their way, even if legally they are wrong.
I've been to many nations in the world, and seen the result of an ineffective police force. That I can pull over in a rest stop , rack my seat back for a nap, and not wake up to a roving gang of armed bandits definitely says alot for the contribution of our police forces. I don't hate them as a whole.
However, there are too many police agencies that are not doing enough to punish their own violators as much as they do the ones on the street. Worse are the ones that actually stand behind the bad behavior and declare it sanctioned or correct. This sends a hypocritical message that police are exempt from justice, enforces the belief that police are corrupt elitist xenophobes, and interested only in assuaging sadistic desires.
The other side of the coin is my friend's brother, who has been a cop for 13 years. He hates his job and wants to get out, because he constantly has to walk the blue line. His department is more like a cult than anything else. He was once reprimanded by a superior for missing too many off-duty police nights at their local preferred bar. The insinuation was that if he wanted to be left alone in his daily life, he'd be on his own in other, more critical situations. The things he has told me sound more like a prison gang than a police department.
My hope is that more police agencies will come to the rational conclusion that they do in fact need the public, and act accordingly.
However, there are too many police agencies that are not doing enough to punish their own violators as much as they do the ones on the street. Worse are the ones that actually stand behind the bad behavior and declare it sanctioned or correct. This sends a hypocritical message that police are exempt from justice, enforces the belief that police are corrupt elitist xenophobes, and interested only in assuaging sadistic desires.
The other side of the coin is my friend's brother, who has been a cop for 13 years. He hates his job and wants to get out, because he constantly has to walk the blue line. His department is more like a cult than anything else. He was once reprimanded by a superior for missing too many off-duty police nights at their local preferred bar. The insinuation was that if he wanted to be left alone in his daily life, he'd be on his own in other, more critical situations. The things he has told me sound more like a prison gang than a police department.
My hope is that more police agencies will come to the rational conclusion that they do in fact need the public, and act accordingly.
doublewasp, it's "professional courtesy". If you work at a hospital or doctors office you can rest assured you will be seen as soon as possible. Heck, my grandson works at the local Subway and gives his co-workers and friends good subs. I worked for IL Department Of Corrections for many years and always appreciated a minor break.
Originally Posted By: qwerty1234
Garak, I believe there may be some "cultural difference" regarding law enforcement between Canada and the U.S.? Police in urban U.S. cities like Baltimore, Newark, Chicago, Miami, Detroit, St Louis, ect... need to get the guns out of the criminals hands.
Again with the cultural differences. Check the statistics on causes of death and get back to me.
This city, cultural differences or not, has some of the worst crime in Canada and definitely is worse than some American cities. No, it's not Detroit, but we have medium cities and small cities here that are much worse than comparable places in the States. And, drunk driving (and poor driving in general) is the real deal.
I also find it ironic how you don't like to be pulled over and checked when out at odd hours, level of toastiness notwithstanding. Yet, how do you think police officers find guns, people with warrants, drugs, and stolen property? They check people who are driving and are doing something else they shouldn't be doing, like weaving, not signalling, speeding, running stop signs, and so forth. If they pull them over and they find guns or stolen property, they deal with it. If they just didn't signal, that can be dealt with, too. Same if they're drunk.
They don't say to them that they're free to go because they're not committing an actual felony.
Garak, I believe there may be some "cultural difference" regarding law enforcement between Canada and the U.S.? Police in urban U.S. cities like Baltimore, Newark, Chicago, Miami, Detroit, St Louis, ect... need to get the guns out of the criminals hands.
Again with the cultural differences. Check the statistics on causes of death and get back to me.
This city, cultural differences or not, has some of the worst crime in Canada and definitely is worse than some American cities. No, it's not Detroit, but we have medium cities and small cities here that are much worse than comparable places in the States. And, drunk driving (and poor driving in general) is the real deal.
I also find it ironic how you don't like to be pulled over and checked when out at odd hours, level of toastiness notwithstanding. Yet, how do you think police officers find guns, people with warrants, drugs, and stolen property? They check people who are driving and are doing something else they shouldn't be doing, like weaving, not signalling, speeding, running stop signs, and so forth. If they pull them over and they find guns or stolen property, they deal with it. If they just didn't signal, that can be dealt with, too. Same if they're drunk.
They don't say to them that they're free to go because they're not committing an actual felony.
The "odd hour" you describe could be the late night shift worker getting off at 2AM. The U.S. prison system only has so much room. Violent criminal offenders will always take priority over traffic offenses.
Yes, a late shift worker getting off at 02:00 is disproportionately likely to be stopped. I'm always out late at night, too. I know how it is. Tough bananas. And yes, violent offenders take priority in prison space. But, like I said, the "routine traffic stop" is what tends to catch the violent criminal, or even the average property crime type offender.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Yes, a late shift worker getting off at 02:00 is disproportionately likely to be stopped. I'm always out late at night, too. I know how it is. Tough bananas. And yes, violent offenders take priority in prison space. But, like I said, the "routine traffic stop" is what tends to catch the violent criminal, or even the average property crime type offender.
Thank goodness for an intelligent guy like Garak.
Many violent criminals are also drug addicts and much of any income they receive is going to drugs. They may well be driving a car that has a tail light out or a headlight out, or some other mechanical issue that would result in a traffic stop.
Some robbers who break into homes are not professionals. A professional will try to determine when people are not at home and will often break into a house during daylight hours. If the police see somebody walking around at 3:00 AM it makes sense to stop and investigate that individual/individuals. If they were going to break into a home they might have something like a pry bar or they may have knives. A good police officer cannot afford to assume that two guys walking down the street at 3:00 AM are just going for a stroll in the Moonlight.
Now of course for some people this has to be explained in greater detail. Yes, it is not a crime to stroll down the street at 3:00 AM. But the police must be allowed to check out individuals roaming around at some strange hour of the night. And the police are better than some here think. They may know the individuals because of prior arrests. Or there may have been several recent robberies in the area. There are several reasons the police might want to check out the two guys walking down the street. And the police checking out those two guys just might prevent a robbery at YOUR HOUSE!
Yes, a late shift worker getting off at 02:00 is disproportionately likely to be stopped. I'm always out late at night, too. I know how it is. Tough bananas. And yes, violent offenders take priority in prison space. But, like I said, the "routine traffic stop" is what tends to catch the violent criminal, or even the average property crime type offender.
Thank goodness for an intelligent guy like Garak.
Many violent criminals are also drug addicts and much of any income they receive is going to drugs. They may well be driving a car that has a tail light out or a headlight out, or some other mechanical issue that would result in a traffic stop.
Some robbers who break into homes are not professionals. A professional will try to determine when people are not at home and will often break into a house during daylight hours. If the police see somebody walking around at 3:00 AM it makes sense to stop and investigate that individual/individuals. If they were going to break into a home they might have something like a pry bar or they may have knives. A good police officer cannot afford to assume that two guys walking down the street at 3:00 AM are just going for a stroll in the Moonlight.
Now of course for some people this has to be explained in greater detail. Yes, it is not a crime to stroll down the street at 3:00 AM. But the police must be allowed to check out individuals roaming around at some strange hour of the night. And the police are better than some here think. They may know the individuals because of prior arrests. Or there may have been several recent robberies in the area. There are several reasons the police might want to check out the two guys walking down the street. And the police checking out those two guys just might prevent a robbery at YOUR HOUSE!
Unfortunately, that's what law enforcement faces all the time. "Go after the real criminals," is the cry of the uninformed. First off, we know that motor vehicle collisions have a huge human and property cost. They're as "real" as it gets. And, the "real criminals" also happen to be driving around. They're not robbing banks on horseback, or selling drugs through a natural gas pipeline or by drone delivery. Amber Alerts are also aimed at vehicles, while having nothing to do with motor vehicle offences per se.
Heck, even the anti-police literature out there, all the way back into the 1970s, stated that those who are up to no good and don't want to get caught should spend as little time as they can on the street and follow traffic laws faithfully and watch the times they're out and about.
I get pulled over on the highway reasonably often, because I'm out late, all the time. I'm not driving "toasty," I don't have stolen goods in the car, I'm not doing drugs, and I'm not breaking traffic laws. My insurance and license are valid. I have no concern about being pulled over.
The only issue I have is that some of the newer officers are exhibiting terribly poor officer safety techniques that will get them into serious trouble one of these days.
Heck, even the anti-police literature out there, all the way back into the 1970s, stated that those who are up to no good and don't want to get caught should spend as little time as they can on the street and follow traffic laws faithfully and watch the times they're out and about.
I get pulled over on the highway reasonably often, because I'm out late, all the time. I'm not driving "toasty," I don't have stolen goods in the car, I'm not doing drugs, and I'm not breaking traffic laws. My insurance and license are valid. I have no concern about being pulled over.
The only issue I have is that some of the newer officers are exhibiting terribly poor officer safety techniques that will get them into serious trouble one of these days.
Originally Posted By: Garak
I get pulled over on the highway reasonably often, because I'm out late, all the time. I'm not driving "toasty," I don't have stolen goods in the car, I'm not doing drugs, and I'm not breaking traffic laws. My insurance and license are valid. I have no concern about being pulled over.
.
They never give you a reason? In a free country that's illegal. Is Canada a free country?
There are certain racist people who are all too happy the cops harass black people. Come on. Aren't you getting that?
I get pulled over on the highway reasonably often, because I'm out late, all the time. I'm not driving "toasty," I don't have stolen goods in the car, I'm not doing drugs, and I'm not breaking traffic laws. My insurance and license are valid. I have no concern about being pulled over.
.
They never give you a reason? In a free country that's illegal. Is Canada a free country?
There are certain racist people who are all too happy the cops harass black people. Come on. Aren't you getting that?
Garak, and it's okay with you to get pulled over for no reason? Wow, I'm glad I don't live in Canada. Nor do I think I will ever visit. And, people in general, do not need a car to get around in cities like; Chicago, NYC, Philidelphia, ect....They have excellent public transportation.
Originally Posted By: qwerty1234
Garak, and it's okay with you to get pulled over for no reason? Wow, I'm glad I don't live in Canada. Nor do I think I will ever visit. And, people in general, do not need a car to get around in cities like; Chicago, NYC, Philidelphia, ect....They have excellent public transportation.
Some people are COMFORTABLE with that boot on their neck...
Garak, and it's okay with you to get pulled over for no reason? Wow, I'm glad I don't live in Canada. Nor do I think I will ever visit. And, people in general, do not need a car to get around in cities like; Chicago, NYC, Philidelphia, ect....They have excellent public transportation.
Some people are COMFORTABLE with that boot on their neck...
I believe that even in Canada there must be
"reasonable suspicion" to pull road vehicles over.
I don't know it is the term is exactly the same but the requirements are about the same as in the USA.
"reasonable suspicion" to pull road vehicles over.
I don't know it is the term is exactly the same but the requirements are about the same as in the USA.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Unfortunately, that's what law enforcement faces all the time. "Go after the real criminals," is the cry of the uninformed. First off, we know that motor vehicle collisions have a huge human and property cost. They're as "real" as it gets. And, the "real criminals" also happen to be driving around. They're not robbing banks on horseback, or selling drugs through a natural gas pipeline or by drone delivery. Amber Alerts are also aimed at vehicles, while having nothing to do with motor vehicle offences per se.
Heck, even the anti-police literature out there, all the way back into the 1970s, stated that those who are up to no good and don't want to get caught should spend as little time as they can on the street and follow traffic laws faithfully and watch the times they're out and about.
I get pulled over on the highway reasonably often, because I'm out late, all the time. I'm not driving "toasty," I don't have stolen goods in the car, I'm not doing drugs, and I'm not breaking traffic laws. My insurance and license are valid. I have no concern about being pulled over.
The only issue I have is that some of the newer officers are exhibiting terribly poor officer safety techniques that will get them into serious trouble one of these days.
I don't like driving at night and now that I am retired I pretty much drive only in the daytime. I don't get stopped by the police very often. I got stopped a while back by Colorado State Patrol because one of my turn signal lights was out. It was a completely valid stop. I realized that the turn signal light had gone back. It had just barely happened and I had not had time to get it repaired. The Colorado State Patrol officer had every right to stop me and let me know about my turn signal light being out.
When I did drive late at night in the past and whenever I do drive now late at night I have not been stopped by the police for any reason.
I can't believe you have been attacked for what you have said. I don't think you said anything wrong.
Unfortunately, that's what law enforcement faces all the time. "Go after the real criminals," is the cry of the uninformed. First off, we know that motor vehicle collisions have a huge human and property cost. They're as "real" as it gets. And, the "real criminals" also happen to be driving around. They're not robbing banks on horseback, or selling drugs through a natural gas pipeline or by drone delivery. Amber Alerts are also aimed at vehicles, while having nothing to do with motor vehicle offences per se.
Heck, even the anti-police literature out there, all the way back into the 1970s, stated that those who are up to no good and don't want to get caught should spend as little time as they can on the street and follow traffic laws faithfully and watch the times they're out and about.
I get pulled over on the highway reasonably often, because I'm out late, all the time. I'm not driving "toasty," I don't have stolen goods in the car, I'm not doing drugs, and I'm not breaking traffic laws. My insurance and license are valid. I have no concern about being pulled over.
The only issue I have is that some of the newer officers are exhibiting terribly poor officer safety techniques that will get them into serious trouble one of these days.
I don't like driving at night and now that I am retired I pretty much drive only in the daytime. I don't get stopped by the police very often. I got stopped a while back by Colorado State Patrol because one of my turn signal lights was out. It was a completely valid stop. I realized that the turn signal light had gone back. It had just barely happened and I had not had time to get it repaired. The Colorado State Patrol officer had every right to stop me and let me know about my turn signal light being out.
When I did drive late at night in the past and whenever I do drive now late at night I have not been stopped by the police for any reason.
I can't believe you have been attacked for what you have said. I don't think you said anything wrong.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
They never give you a reason? In a free country that's illegal. Is Canada a free country?
Yes, they do. They're checking for license and registration, which has been endorsed by the Supreme Court of Canada decades ago. They can also state they are checking for impaired drivers, as that has been deemed acceptable, though it's a little more dodgy, and the case law on the license and registration checks is well entrenched.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
There are certain racist people who are all too happy the cops harass black people. Come on. Aren't you getting that?
That may be, but that also doesn't change certain facts. A police offer pulling me over at 02:00 doesn't have a clue as to my race until he comes up to me.
qwerty1234: See what I wrote above. I don't get pulled over for "no reason." I suppose if the public transit systems are so great in those cities, there is even less of an excuse for impaired driving.
GiveMeAVowel: Also, read above. Reasonable suspicion isn't a meaningful phrase in Canadian law, except when it comes to roadside screening for alcohol consumption, and I'm not going to explain that entire mess unless someone is really interested. There is little interest outside of legal circles.
As it stands, if you're violating the traffic laws of any sort in Canada, you certainly can get pulled over for that. You can also be pulled over for a license and registration check, as I mentioned above. And, no, that doesn't mean they can search the vehicle or me unless, of course, something else crops up. If I've got a bag of weed sitting on the dash, well, the vehicle and I are going to be searched, but that will be the least of my problems.
They never give you a reason? In a free country that's illegal. Is Canada a free country?
Yes, they do. They're checking for license and registration, which has been endorsed by the Supreme Court of Canada decades ago. They can also state they are checking for impaired drivers, as that has been deemed acceptable, though it's a little more dodgy, and the case law on the license and registration checks is well entrenched.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
There are certain racist people who are all too happy the cops harass black people. Come on. Aren't you getting that?
That may be, but that also doesn't change certain facts. A police offer pulling me over at 02:00 doesn't have a clue as to my race until he comes up to me.
qwerty1234: See what I wrote above. I don't get pulled over for "no reason." I suppose if the public transit systems are so great in those cities, there is even less of an excuse for impaired driving.
GiveMeAVowel: Also, read above. Reasonable suspicion isn't a meaningful phrase in Canadian law, except when it comes to roadside screening for alcohol consumption, and I'm not going to explain that entire mess unless someone is really interested. There is little interest outside of legal circles.
As it stands, if you're violating the traffic laws of any sort in Canada, you certainly can get pulled over for that. You can also be pulled over for a license and registration check, as I mentioned above. And, no, that doesn't mean they can search the vehicle or me unless, of course, something else crops up. If I've got a bag of weed sitting on the dash, well, the vehicle and I are going to be searched, but that will be the least of my problems.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Some people are COMFORTABLE with that boot on their neck...
If you give the police the authority to check vehicles in a more routine fashion without having to articulate that an actual offence occurred, and without subjecting the motorist to unreasonable search and seizure, you have eliminated the temptation that a law enforcement officer might have to fabricate a traffic offence as a reason for the stop.
People being pulled over on the sole basis of a fabricated failure to signal, for example, simply don't happen up here, since there's no need to do that.
Some people are COMFORTABLE with that boot on their neck...
If you give the police the authority to check vehicles in a more routine fashion without having to articulate that an actual offence occurred, and without subjecting the motorist to unreasonable search and seizure, you have eliminated the temptation that a law enforcement officer might have to fabricate a traffic offence as a reason for the stop.
People being pulled over on the sole basis of a fabricated failure to signal, for example, simply don't happen up here, since there's no need to do that.
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