Boosting Old Half-Used-Up Oil to Go Longer

[spasm3]

Quote:
=fredfactory
Changing oil has been guessing and conjecture for 120 years now.

The Oil Life Monitor in recent engines do a lot for us these days. They tell us when acid or thermal stress is breaking down additives too much.


Your post is contradicting.

No they don't tell us when acids or thermal stress break down oil. They tell us based on factory research and uoa testing how the oil might be based on previous data from factory driving tests and uoas. The oil monitor has no idea what condition the oil actually is. Its based on data and testing by the engine/ auto manufacturer.

DO the experiemnts you talk about and post some data.

 

[fredfactory]

Originally Posted By: spasm3
No they don't tell us when acids or thermal stress break down oil. They tell us based on factory research and uoa testing how the oil might be based on previous data from factory driving tests and uoas. The oil monitor has no idea what condition the oil actually is. Its based on data and testing by the engine/ auto manufacturer.


Look at oil monitors using google and you will find technical papers on it which show they are accurate. Most of them look at temperature profiles first to determine chemical breakdown and acid formation conditions. Thats a known predictor of chemical breakdown they use. Oil life monitors also track other variables such as high speed high temp operation to predict chemical breakdown. Other oil monitors actually monitor the condition of the oil through changes in the capacitance and resistance electrical sensed parameters which does change as the oil degrades.

Conclusion is oil life monitor algorithms do work to tell us when oil additives are depleted with more accuracy than a total wag.

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted By: fredfactory


Conclusion is oil life monitor algorithms do work to tell us when oil additives are depleted with more accuracy than a total wag.


I agree that oil life monitors are useful and with accuracy, because they are based on data collected by the oems.

Thats why i'm saying that your ideas are interesting but not based on any data at all.
You need uoas like i suggested to back up what you are suggesting.

With out that, you posts are starting to sound like veiled spam for a product like oil extreme concentrate.

 

[fredfactory]

Originally Posted By: spasm3
Originally Posted By: fredfactory
Conclusion is oil life monitor algorithms do work to tell us when oil additives are depleted with more accuracy than a total wag.


I agree that oil life monitors are useful and with accuracy, because they are based on data collected by the oems. Thats why i'm saying that your ideas are interesting but not based on any data at all.You need uoas like i suggested to back up what you are suggesting.


Oil life monitors tell us when the additives are getting depleted. Its simple. Monitors can be used to known when to put in booster additives. It is known that acids degrade engine oil, thats all I've ever said, no data required to prove that besides years of engineering studies. Additives do work to soak up acid and lower wear and friction from years of data.

Originally Posted By: spasm3
With out that, you posts are starting to sound like veiled spam for a product like oil extreme concentrate.

I don't sell any additives of any kind.

I'm asking for any input from people who have insight into how to recharge the additives to avoid always dumping the sump to save cost, etc. Some fleets have done something like this for years. The oil companies by the way love it when we dump our sump.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I'd be very careful about playing formulator in an effort to extend OCIs.
If the subject engine is one that you have little concern for, then by all means experiment.


+1. Way back from page one.

 

[fredfactory]

Question to all for comments on Liqui Moly saying "Motor Protect is for people who don't want solid particles in their oil and Ceratec is the one for people who like the micro ceramic particles" paraphrased, not an exact qoute, from: http://www.liqui-moly.com/liquimoly/web.nsf/id/li_en_domb9p8jf2.html

I can't find if Motor Protect has all the things in it that EngineMaxx does. Both seem like they might work as a booster.

My goal is to find a 6 oz mix that would boost TBN first and foremost, and maybe zddp, and then round out the other additive categories in small amounts.

 

[Pontual]

The best filter for used oil is gravity decantation (settling) for a few months (about 5 - 6). Most of the Polymerized (oxidized and fuel related dirt) contaminants and solids will go to the bottom of the container. You can put a magnet in the bottom to collect the ferrous particles and reuse it mixing it with a new oil.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: fredfactory
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
.
"Dosing" the oil doesn't put it back to "new" condition. And there is depletion of other additives that you are not replenishing with your dosing process. On top of that, additives don't deplete together in parallel; some are going to deplete faster than others so when topping up with a "booster" you inflate some levels above their original blend point and others remain below it, unbalancing the formula. It no longer is a "fully formulated lubricant" but instead is now just a mix of base oils, additives, contaminants and whatever you've put in it, which may or may not meet the original fully formulated product's performance characteristics.
.


It is true motor oil naturally depletes its original additives at different rates as you'd expect, based on driving conditions, temperature profiles, cycles, etc. For example, an engine might have low TBN, meaning very little acid buffering, and then have fully 3/4 of its ZDDP not destroyed yet. Its always "unbalanced" anyway. Putting in a guess of a small measured boost of ZDDP up to the historical limits of around 1200 ppm total (not counting unknown breakdown), and restoring a few small points of TBN is not going to unbalance anything. And one can't do this forever of course.


But you'd need to know how much of each has been depleted and be able to top up those additives individually to keep the formula somewhere close to where it was intended to be. Normally, you change the oil, which takes everything out (including the contaminants) and you start anew. In this case, you aren't re-establishing that initial performance baseline but rather propping up particular parts of it with 3rd party products. In order to ensure that the levels are at least somewhat reasonable, you'll then be doing frequent and expensive UOA's which may, depending on the vehicle, cost more than just changing the oil

And then there are the non-metallic additives that don't show up in UOA's.....

The issue I was alluding in my earlier post is that if it isn't just ZDDP that's reduced, say it is Boron or something else, and you plan on propping it back up with one of the bottled additive "packages", it would certainly be possible to elevate the levels of other additives well above their virgin levels and if you do this multiple times throughout your OCI, I'd be curious if some of those levels could be pushed past the point of benefit and into the range of toxic

 

[fredfactory]

Sending an email to [email protected] about Motor Protect: Does it have Viscosity Index Improvers,
Extreme Pressure/Anti Wear additives,
Detergents and Dispersants,
Seal Conditioners,
Oxidation Inhibitors and Acid Neutralizers,
Rust and Corrosion Inhibitors?
I'm comparing to EngineMaxx http://maryninternational.com/index.php/products-and-services/powerup

 

[fredfactory]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
.
The issue I was alluding in my earlier post is that if it isn't just ZDDP that's reduced, say it is Boron or something else, and you plan on propping it back up with one of the bottled additive "packages", it would certainly be possible to elevate the levels of other additives well above their virgin levels and if you do this multiple times throughout your OCI, I'd be curious if some of those levels could be pushed past the point of benefit and into the range of toxic

We can't keep adding these 6 oz additive boosts forever and we both agree on that! I think once is reasonable to substitute for an oil change either at the end of OLM monitor or 6 months according to what the owner thinks is right. Going with two shots of boost might work to go for a 2-year oil change if using the Mobil EP or other EP oil out there as people have said. (If turtlevettes scenario of frequent top-ups because of oil usage, then maybe use even less additive boost, like 3 oz instead of 6 oz total shot glass.)

 

[fredfactory]

Originally Posted By: Pontual
The best filter for used oil is gravity decantation (settling) for a few months (about 5 - 6). Most of the Polymerized (oxidized and fuel related dirt) contaminants and solids will go to the bottom of the container. You can put a magnet in the bottom to collect the ferrous particles and reuse it mixing it with a new oil.


using a drain plug magnet might help. Finest oil filter helps.

 

[BrianC]

Quote:
and maybe change the filter, something better than Fram Ultra's 5 micron performance possibly.


I don't think any full flow filter filters to 5 microns to any great degree.. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, Fram Ultra is 99.7% or so at 20 Microns.

Anyway the OP would be better served by installing a bypass filter system, while using a high quality synthetic. Bypass systems can really extend the life of oil due to their filtering capablities.

 

[Pontual]

Sure spin on full flow doesn't trap anything above 10 microns with any efficiency. So called synthetic media get some 15 microns and a very feww 10 microns, but 5 microns, only part time.

 

[MrQuackers]

80% @ 5 microns is not efficient?

 

[fredfactory]

Originally Posted By: Pontual
Sure spin on full flow doesn't trap anything above 10 microns with any efficiency. So called synthetic media get some 15 microns and a very feww 10 microns, but 5 microns, only part time.

Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
80% @ 5 microns is not efficient?

Thats what came from a Fram representative, Fram Ultras do get 80% at 5 microns multi pass tests of course. Better than anything else I've seen. Really getting-er-done too.

By the way, the EngineMaxx is only a Canada product as I recently found out. Can't buy it here in the states.
I'm wanting something like EngineMaxx, where a wide range of functions are performed.
Right now it looks like Liqui Moly Motor Protect, at 4 oz, with the calcium sulfonate Oil Extreme at 1 oz, and the ZddPlus at 1 oz is a good package. Also, maybe the racing oils out there would have a concentrated package for use in small amounts.

 

[fredfactory]

Found this Dispersant Inhibitor Package to put in base oils, containing every category of additives.
DI Package Multipurpose Engine Oil Additive
http://www.hazelpetrochem.com/pdf-file/Additives/multipurpose-engine-oil.pdf

 

[fredfactory]

In the U.S. might be able to get a sample of Chevron Oronite additive package for PCMOils.
http://www.mcchemical.com/lube_motor_oil.html

 

[Pontual]

Originally Posted By: fredfactory
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Sure spin on full flow doesn't trap anything above 10 microns with any efficiency. So called synthetic media get some 15 microns and a very feww 10 microns, but 5 microns, only part time.

Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
80% @ 5 microns is not efficient?

Thats what came from a Fram representative, Fram Ultras do get 80% at 5 microns multi pass tests of course. Better than anything else I've seen. Really getting-er-done too.

By the way, the EngineMaxx is only a Canada product as I recently found out. Can't buy it here in the states.
I'm wanting something like EngineMaxx, where a wide range of functions are performed.
Right now it looks like Liqui Moly Motor Protect, at 4 oz, with the calcium sulfonate Oil Extreme at 1 oz, and the ZddPlus at 1 oz is a good package. Also, maybe the racing oils out there would have a concentrated package for use in small amounts.


80% at 5 microns would be really good ... almost creedable.

 

[fredfactory]

Originally Posted By: Pontual

80% at 5 microns would be really good ... almost creedable.


After some searching for this, I noticed :
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Fram Ultra is 99%+ @20 microns and 80% efficient at 5 microns. This information comes from Fram, but no reason to doubt them because if they weren't meeting their claims they would be an easy target..

I think it came from a fram rep that posts on these forums. their website says 99% at 20 microns, so 80% at 5 microns using the synthetic depth filtering they do, this works.

 

[fredfactory]

If you wanted to heed the warnings about adding in too many additives that might counteract each other (its complicated admittedly), then I think it'd be safe to just counteract the acid buildup at the end of a reasonable oil interval by adding in just 1 oz of Oil Extreme Concentrate to raise TBN by around 2 points.
Then use quality top-off oil like Mobil1 0w-40, and you'll probably put in enough of that quality synthetic oil to add back in some anti wear additives, VII, etc. THEN you can skip every other oil change and save your trouble-cost. That Fram Ultra is too good to pass up at the 5 micron level of filtration too.