OEM Specs vs Oil Vendor Meeting Said Specs

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Trav

I understand some say the 0w part of the oil only means it has better cold start properties but then why on the Tundra for example wont they allow 0w20 but 5w2o is fine.


Likely the same reason Honda spec'd 10w-30 instead of 5w-30 for the S2000: shear. Not all 0W-xx's are equally shear stable or have the same HTHS, so it is possible that some of them may end up too far out of grade. Mobil appears to specifically test for that, hence their recommendation, which they wouldn't make if they didn't feel the product was shear stable enough to be used in place of those others.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The Ford "specs" are a series of tests above and beyond the basic API stuff. They are not really grade specific other than what Ford slaps them onto. It is quite possible (and I'm sure that's what happened) that Mobil tested the AFE oil against the relevant (at the time) Ford WSS spec, it passed, they demonstrated that to Ford and were able to carry the "Meets or Exceeds" requirements of that spec.

Since then, Ford has come out with its own spec specifically for their 0w-20 lubricant (which didn't exist before) so this may explain some of the confusion.

And as far as I know Ford is one of the few with an actual performance spec for xW-20. The Japanese marques just spec your basic API stuff, which the AFE oil exceeds by a mile.

I like this generic API Spec better than any manufacture spec. This generic API spec to me means their engine are good engineered so that any generic oil can be used as long as it is the right grade.


Well the generic API spec is evolving too, it is not the same as when your car was made. It loosely follows what the OEM's are driving for, things like extended drain capability and the like.

And yes, some engines will live long and boring lives on whatever basic API stuff is out there (like the Modular) but there are benefits to using "better" oils like increased ring-pack cleanliness, varnish prevention and with things like VCT, AFM....etc, this becomes more relevant. Toyota's sludgers, Honda's VCM engines, both examples of engines that mechanically were not capable of running their OEM-defined intervals on the "basic API" stuff that they called for.

 

[wemay]

Update: I guess they logged my recent inquiry/concern and emailed this regarding the question of no longer showing 0w20 in the 'what oil for my car' current look up tool...


If your car manufacturer recommends a SAE 5W-20 ILSAC oil, we recommend either Mobil 1™ 5W-20 or Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20. Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20 will not void new-car warranties where an SAE 5W-20 oil is recommended. Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20 can provide better fuel economy and better low-temperature performance than higher viscosity oils. Mobil 1™ Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20 and Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-30 flow faster than 5W-20 and 5W-30 motor oils, respectively, reaching your engine's vital parts faster during startup.

I just didn't want to leave any loose ends out there regarding the topic. tig1 is correct.

 

[TiredTrucker]

What I have not seen discussed in threads like this, is how is the OEM or dealer going to know what you were using in that motor unless it is wildly out of spec with what they recommend anyway? I am not sure that, even if they tested the used oil in the motor, they are going to determine with absolute certainty what oil you were using, and if it didn't meet the minimum standards they set, unless, it is something way off the reservation of what oil should be used. If the oil producer claims it meets the spec, and it is the viscosity the OEM recommended, and by that I mean the number after the "w" and not before it, unless it is some bizarre formulation oil and additives, I am not sure the OEM is going to even be able to determine if it is a viable oil without substantial high cost testing that would exceed the cost of the motor repair itself.

I have never heard even anecdotal evidence of a dealer or OEM refusing warranty repair because an oil was not on some sort of "approved" list. At least any instances where the owner didn't screw themselves up by opening their mouth and saying. Only situations where some idiot put in some version of snake oil additive or an oil / lube that was never intended to be used in a motor like gear oil or transmission fluid. Even if the dealer or OEM were to ask, I would just say that the oil meets the minimum standards and not go into some sort of defensive posture to prove anything.

In other words, anyone who is loosing sleep over this has an enlarged paranoia gland.

 

[Trav]

You have an oil related failure and see how long it takes them to ask for receipts.
It is right on the receipt what brand and grade oil it is.
In Germany it is worse, they want to see a dealer or licensed shop stamp for every required service in the warranty book, no stamp or missed the required Km or time by 30 days or 1000Km and no more warranty.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
What I have not seen discussed in threads like this...

Short answer is they cannot without excessive expense as you stated (unless all they need do is ask for receipts), but that was not the intent of the post. The post was geared towards an OEM stating a specification, but not testing any of the oil which oil vendors say meet that specification--i.e. who is on the hook? The OEM or the oil manufacturer?

 

[weasley]

It is possible to do investigational analysis to work out (to a reasonable degree of certainty) whether an oil was (or was not) a given product. You usually need a reference point to compare with, so it is not likely that you can determine that an oil was not an approved type (unless there was something in it which was way outside of an approval limit, say ash or TBN). But, if the question was "did this customer use XYZ Brand Oil", a good lab, with a fresh sample for comparison, should be able to say yes or no.

No UOA lab will be able to do this - you need a decent lab with an array of tools and techniques available, such as HTGC, GCMS, SEC, GPC etc. Separating the component parts is the hardest part.

I liken it to taking a cup of coffee and being able to separate the the water, coffee, sugar and cream (and say what type they are).

In truth, this is unlikely to happen unless a specific OEM or dealer was facing a challenging issue and needed support.

 

[CrawfishTails]

Similar subject came up the other day. Jaguar-LandRover has their own spec for a 0w-20 oil, and only ONE oil in the world actually meets it, and you have to buy it from the dealership or Ebay at great cost. .... My reasoning is that any big name-brand 0w-20 that is SN, GF-5, ACEA A1, and dexos1 too, already is covered by so much performance specs that Jag-Bland-Rover can't possible ask for anything else "magical".

 

[weasley]

They can and they do. They are just asking for a product that has been tested and approved according to their specific needs, which are not the same as ACEA, API or GM. In the same way they would expect a replacement piston or electronic module to be very specifically sourced and fitted to maintain warranty.

There is currently one one source of approved oil. This will undoubtedly change with time as other suppliers get to grips with the specification's needs and get the testing completed. In the early days there was only one dexos1 oil, or VW 504/507 oil - it has to start somewhere.

 

[Mathew_Boss]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Update: I guess they logged my recent inquiry/concern and emailed this regarding the question of no longer showing 0w20 in the 'what oil for my car' current look up tool...


If your car manufacturer recommends a SAE 5W-20 ILSAC oil, we recommend either Mobil 1™ 5W-20 or Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20. Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20 will not void new-car warranties where an SAE 5W-20 oil is recommended. Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20 can provide better fuel economy and better low-temperature performance than higher viscosity oils. Mobil 1™ Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20 and Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-30 flow faster than 5W-20 and 5W-30 motor oils, respectively, reaching your engine's vital parts faster during startup.

I just didn't want to leave any loose ends out there regarding the topic. tig1 is correct.


I tried their 0W20 in my 2014 Fiesta with the 1.6L before they took the recommendation off their web site and now off their bottles, I had to change it at 6k miles... It was black as night and we were getting about 28mpg highway. I put PUP 5w20 in and it went right back up to 45mpg. I will not be using mobil 1 again. That cant be good for your car to loose that much fuel milage in that short of time and fix it by replacing the oil.

 

[geeman789]

Originally Posted By: Mathew_Boss


I tried their 0W20 in my 2014 Fiesta with the 1.6L before they took the recommendation off their web site and now off their bottles, I had to change it at 6k miles... It was black as night and we were getting about 28mpg highway. I put PUP 5w20 in and it went right back up to 45mpg. I will not be using mobil 1 again. That cant be good for your car to loose that much fuel milage in that short of time and fix it by replacing the oil.


Are you making stuff up...? Do you know how an engine works...?

It is NEAR IMPOSSIBLE for the oil alone to "cause..." that kind of change in mileage.

 

[Mathew_Boss]

Originally Posted By: geeman789
Originally Posted By: Mathew_Boss


I tried their 0W20 in my 2014 Fiesta with the 1.6L before they took the recommendation off their web site and now off their bottles, I had to change it at 6k miles... It was black as night and we were getting about 28mpg highway. I put PUP 5w20 in and it went right back up to 45mpg. I will not be using mobil 1 again. That cant be good for your car to loose that much fuel milage in that short of time and fix it by replacing the oil.


Are you making stuff up...? Do you know how an engine works...?

It is NEAR IMPOSSIBLE for the oil alone to "cause..." that kind of change in mileage.


Nope I am not making any thing up. I wish i had taken a picture of the MPG before the oil change instead of just taking an after picture of the fact it was back up where it was.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: Trav
You have an oil related failure and see how long it takes them to ask for receipts.
It is right on the receipt what brand and grade oil it is.
In Germany it is worse, they want to see a dealer or licensed shop stamp for every required service in the warranty book, no stamp or missed the required Km or time by 30 days or 1000Km and no more warranty.



That is an example of an inflamed paranoia gland. I own engines that cost more than most folks' complete automobiles or pickup trucks. I have been dealing with Engine specific OEM's for decades. I have had warranty issues occasionally, and I have yet to have a OEM shop even ask what oil I was using let alone some goofy thing like producing receipts. The manual on my GM product says.... "dexos1 or equivalent". Well, the oil I use claims it meets the spec, even though it is not not on the "approved" list, so it is equivalent. That meets the OEM requirement according to the manual. That is one example why I don't suffer from OCD regarding this stuff. I take the time to read the fine print. My heavy commercial engines each have their own gig going on regarding oils, but again, I read the fine print that shows, along with their spec, they also concede that a CJ-4 oil is fine, so I have no problem with what I use in them. And again, it is not on their "approved" list. One of those engines, alone, costs over $30,000 to replace and that is before any labor to install it.

But since I don't live in Germany, only spent a short some time in Berlin in the 70's, I am not even concerned with what DE does. They have their own thing going on and only their citizens have to deal with it. I only concern myself with what the legalities are here in the U.S. And their are laws in place to protect the consumer. The burden of proof falls on the manufacturer to prove that what I used caused the problem. In this situation, the oil I used claims to meet the spec, they are going to have to prove it doesn't. Good luck with that one.

 

[Shannow]

"They are going to have to prove that it doesn't"...they don't have to prove that...it's not tested to the spec, so it's clearly not compliant with the spec.

You are still waiting in the other thread for answers for how it's tested you have been "waiting until monday" for months now, with no actual answers to the testing that Amsoil uses (the ones that they choose are much tougher, we were told) to prove that they comply to your spec...and you still trust them ?

While they say "trust us, give us your money, and DD will look after you...we promise"

That's an underactive reality gland

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: Mathew_Boss
I tried their 0W20 in my 2014 Fiesta with the 1.6L before they took the recommendation off their web site and now off their bottles, I had to change it at 6k miles... It was black as night and we were getting about 28mpg highway. I put PUP 5w20 in and it went right back up to 45mpg. I will not be using mobil 1 again. That cant be good for your car to loose that much fuel milage in that short of time and fix it by replacing the oil.
Are you really attempting to say that it is possible or realistic for an oil to effect a 17MPG increase or decrease?

 

[TiredTrucker]

You fail to factor many things. The Federal Trade Commission has myriads of regulations regarding marketing claims, including if an oil claims to meet the standards for what it claims it meets. Since the oil I use is from a reputable company that has been producing oils and lubes longer than anyone else in N. America, and they claim to meet the standard, I have no worries.

And yes, the dealer or OEM would have to prove their case that the oil did not meet the standard. That is was courts are for. And no, they will not be allowed to bring in their high ticket lawyers. It is called small claims court. The perfect solution to a obstinate dealer. They cannot have representation, only themselves. The will have to try and argue the Magnesson Moss Warranty act and convince a judge. I can show what I used from a reputable company with a long track record of producing quality lubes. I adhered to the owners manual in using an oil that claims to meet the spec and is equivalent to the spec. Not worried at all. If they don't show up, they lose. If they can't convince the judge, they lose. And the MM warranty act and published guidance and rulings from the Federal Trade Commission, puts the burden of proof on them.

 

[Shannow]

Tired Trucker, read the weasel words again...they do not claim to meet the spec.

They are "recommending" it for applications requiring the spec, don't say anywhere that they meet the spec...that's vastly different to a statement of "meets" the spec.

And you are still awaiting the detailed tech stuff that you were promised months ago in the other thread

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Mathew_Boss
Nope I am not making any thing up. I wish i had taken a picture of the MPG before the oil change instead of just taking an after picture of the fact it was back up where it was.

You are not going to convince anyone here that switching oil brands or viscosities, even going from a 0w-20 to a 20w-50, is going to have that marked an effect on fuel economy. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. A picture of your trip computer isn't extraordinary evidence. If the Pennzoil increased your fuel economy from 28 mpg to 45 mpg over Mobil 1, you had better run - not walk - to SOPUS and have their engineers verify this. Every North American manufacturer would immediately jump to Pennzoil for CAFE testing. The automakers would save billions, and Pennzoil would be a defacto monopoly.

 

[wemay]

Those improvements 'are revolutionary!'

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Those improvements 'are revolutionary!'