Best UCL

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Originally Posted By: kschachn
Considering that your entire example is completely unrelated to any of the automobiles I own (as well as being unrelated to the OP's vehicles), then I think I will pass.

And I'm not guessing anything, I was asking a question. I was asking what in the upper cylinder needs lubing. But since you mentioned it - how does it increase mileage? You state it is certain - how does it work?

Originally Posted By: 19jacobob93
Well it has been a common problem down here in small diesel trucks with high pressure pumps and injectors such as the Toyota 3.0 D4D and Mitsubishi 3.2 Triton engine. The new ULSD fuels had way less lubricity and caused very premature wear, mainly in the injectors. It was a huge case because it was becoming a very common issue and Toyota refused to accept responsibility because it was the fuels fault, and this left many customers having to fork out for new injectors costing $1000 EACH. One way round it recommended by nearly all mechanics was to add Lucas fuel treatment. Apparently they are now fitted with new injectors which don't have the same problem but my father has just bought a brand new Hilux with the 3.0 D4D and he still adds Lucas anyway to be safe

And instead of guessing why it might not do anything, how about you try adding a UCL? The least it's going to do is increase your mileage and make your engine smoother and quieter. But who the h*ll wants that right?


Well if you think it only effects certain engines, don't give a generalized answer. My car has a petrol engine and I still got the same results. The TCW3 test on the GTO forum that included millions of miles travelled on dozens of LS1 engines concluded the many benefits of adding a 400-500:1 mix.
Of course the uppler cylinder needs lubricating, the piston has to move through it hundreds/thousands of times every minute. There may be adequate lubrication from the engine oil but it won't be much with the top compression ring scraping nearly all the oil off, or not letting any past if your engine is in good condition.
There is nothing wrong with adding an extra layer of protection to your engine to increase the longevity, the reason why 99% of us are on this site in the first place.
The fact that adding UCLs and large tests that have been carried out on TCW3 have concluded that it absolutely does reduce fuel consumption, makes engines run smoother and quiter can only be explained by reduced friction which is axaclty what it does

The fact that my engine is heading towards 200k and doesn't use a single drop of 10w30 during the 7.5k interval, still runs like new, have factory spec compression with the hone marks still in the bores and I still get over 600 miles to a tank tells me I'm not doing anything wrong
 
Originally Posted By: Mephy
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Believe it or not the Lucas fuel treatment is actually decent. It contain polyisobutylene which is known to improve fuel economy. It's the only Lucas branded stuff that isn't garbage.
But it's overpriced.
I use tc-w3/acetone mix in everything I own that burns fuel.


I agree Lucas fuel treatment is the only decent thing that you can take from Lucas staff.

But, why you add acetone in the gas ?




Acetone is supposed to reduce the surface tension of the fuel which aids in complete atomization and in theory a more complete burn.
You can substitute xylene or toluene instead of acetone.
Toluene and xylene are also common ingredients in fuel system cleaners so I figure its an added bonus.
I have very high mile engines and I beat the EPA rated fuel consumption numbers by a fairly significant margin.
I'm not going to lower myself to arguing here on this topic. I use the stuff because for the pennies I spend I get dollars back in fuel savings.
No brainer.
 
I thought one of the main benefits of an UCL was fuel pump lubrication, and less carbon build up on valves and piston tops via the use of TC-w3 or MMO or other UCL's in the gas.

I've tried both, can't notice any difference on economy or power, but the exhaust does smell a bit different.

Sometimes I notice my engine seems to idle smoother than others, even when no variables besides humidity and temperature have changed. Sometimes I try and attribute the smoother times to the addition of one or the other, but often when I know neither is in my tank, The silky smoothness is there, and sometimes when it is less smooth, I do have one or the other in it.

So no claims from me either way as I have no data or proof and do not trust subjective feeling, especially when justification of purchase could be the affecting placebo.
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Mephy
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Believe it or not the Lucas fuel treatment is actually decent. It contain polyisobutylene which is known to improve fuel economy. It's the only Lucas branded stuff that isn't garbage.
But it's overpriced.
I use tc-w3/acetone mix in everything I own that burns fuel.


I agree Lucas fuel treatment is the only decent thing that you can take from Lucas staff.

But, why you add acetone in the gas ?




Acetone is supposed to reduce the surface tension of the fuel which aids in complete atomization and in theory a more complete burn.
You can substitute xylene or toluene instead of acetone.
Toluene and xylene are also common ingredients in fuel system cleaners so I figure its an added bonus.
I have very high mile engines and I beat the EPA rated fuel consumption numbers by a fairly significant margin.
I'm not going to lower myself to arguing here on this topic. I use the stuff because for the pennies I spend I get dollars back in fuel savings.
No brainer.


Interesting

So which ratio do you use?
 
for 4 stroke engines

UCL?

sounds like a solution asking for a non-exisiting problem

i'd put much more tought into keeping the combustion chamber clean , the benefits compared to a UCL is at least 10X if not more...
 
Finally, a quantifiable benefit
wink.gif


Originally Posted By: wrcsixeight
I thought one of the main benefits of an UCL was fuel pump lubrication, and less carbon build up on valves and piston tops via the use of TC-w3 or MMO or other UCL's in the gas.

I've tried both, can't notice any difference on economy or power, but the exhaust does smell a bit different.

Sometimes I notice my engine seems to idle smoother than others, even when no variables besides humidity and temperature have changed. Sometimes I try and attribute the smoother times to the addition of one or the other, but often when I know neither is in my tank, The silky smoothness is there, and sometimes when it is less smooth, I do have one or the other in it.

So no claims from me either way as I have no data or proof and do not trust subjective feeling, especially when justification of purchase could be the affecting placebo.
 
I'm in between football games and wondering. Why is it if people claim TCW3 or MMO in the gas is a placebo, a waste, does nothing etc. How come when I tossed TCW3 in my daughters car while on a 1 month visit, it cleaned up the black carbon [censored] in the tailpipe from her short hopper? No science, no data, just a cleaner tailpipe with no sooty carbon [censored] residue. I'm going to start using it again as a result of my nonscientific discovery-RD
19.gif
 
Originally Posted By: rockydee
I'm in between football games and wondering. Why is it if people claim TCW3 or MMO in the gas is a placebo, a waste, does nothing etc. How come when I tossed TCW3 in my daughters car while on a 1 month visit, it cleaned up the black carbon [censored] in the tailpipe from her short hopper? No science, no data, just a cleaner tailpipe with no sooty carbon [censored] residue. I'm going to start using it again as a result of my nonscientific discovery-RD
19.gif


This was a common discovery in the large scale test done on many LS1 engines. I'll put my hand up and say my tail pipe still has soot on it as I do check it to see if I get those results but I haven't yet. This could be because my O2 sensor needs replacing. I have however received all the other benefits and I did pull the 40k old spark plugs out a few weeks ago and they were like new.
 
Do you have any link to the test you reference? Serious question, I'd like to read it.

But clean spark plugs after 40K? Well, I have very good looking ones after 100K in my Toyota cars. That's hardly any sort of proof.

Originally Posted By: 19jacobob93
This was a common discovery in the large scale test done on many LS1 engines. I'll put my hand up and say my tail pipe still has soot on it as I do check it to see if I get those results but I haven't yet. This could be because my O2 sensor needs replacing. I have however received all the other benefits and I did pull the 40k old spark plugs out a few weeks ago and they were like new.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Do you have any link to the test you reference? Serious question, I'd like to read it.

But clean spark plugs after 40K? Well, I have very good looking ones after 100K in my Toyota cars. That's hardly any sort of proof.

Originally Posted By: 19jacobob93
This was a common discovery in the large scale test done on many LS1 engines. I'll put my hand up and say my tail pipe still has soot on it as I do check it to see if I get those results but I haven't yet. This could be because my O2 sensor needs replacing. I have however received all the other benefits and I did pull the 40k old spark plugs out a few weeks ago and they were like new.

Yeah heres the link
http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91206

Its over 50 pages long and i read every single post before trying it out myself!
As for the plugs yeah nothing special but i replaced some fairly fouled ones with 50k on them and these ones have 40k on them and are spotless, in that time the only variable that has changed is the addition of TCW3.
 
Ahha OK, a bunch of posts on a forum. I thought you meant a laboratory study or something that was controlled and gave repeatable results.

I read through some of the posts (there are a lot), and I guess I got stuck on the first one where the poster states:

Quote:
you guys know I test constantly and oil/tribology is my thing so here goes. I know the gasoline today is . Very dry and poor quality. Throw in ethanol and you got /corrosive gasoline.


Honestly, that right there tells me all I need to know. The guy already thinks there is some sort of problem with today's gasoline and is looking for a solution. Today's gasoline is not "poor quality", no matter how you look at it. And it's not corrosive, we've discussed that to death here on BITOG.

But thanks for the link and the posts. It's just that that whole thing (at least what I read) is full of myths, subjective observations and completely non-scientific testing. Years ago I worked in the research division of a large, multinational corporation and we had to write papers on our work. They had to be reviewed by our peers, and perhaps that has jaded me somewhat. That collection of posts on the forum wouldn't stand up for a millisecond under any sort of scientific review.

For example, look at this:

http://www.ls1.com/forums/f48/been-testing-oil-91206/index24.html#post1923546

Really? The whole massive thread appears to be one large bull session where "Sarge" relates his experiences and works to subjugate the non-believers.

Posts like this one are everywhere:

http://www.ls1.com/forums/f48/been-testing-oil-91206/index28.html#post1947252

There is no way you could attribute that perceived change in fuel economy to the additive. No way. And yet no one challenges such a claim as far as I can see.

Don't think I believe every test under the sun has to be performed in a laboratory. It's just that from what I read in that thread, and many such threads here on BITOG, the truth is that based on the methodology presented there's no way on earth any sort of conclusion could be reached. There's just too many uncontrolled variables entering into the equation.

Originally Posted By: 19jacobob93

Yeah heres the link
http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91206

Its over 50 pages long and i read every single post before trying it out myself!
As for the plugs yeah nothing special but i replaced some fairly fouled ones with 50k on them and these ones have 40k on them and are spotless, in that time the only variable that has changed is the addition of TCW3.
 
Originally Posted By: BrandonVA
What is a good product to add to my gas regularly? I have had seemingly good success with lucas but I'm always hesitant to use their products. Redline seems to work okay for cleaning but doesn't seem to do much in lubing. What do you use?


I use a variety of products from Regaine, B12, tcw3, MMO, and acetone. I have also use toluene, and xylene in the past. I like to use the above mentioned products and usually rotate their use. I don't go over board and use too much as I feel(and it's just my subjective observation based on my mpg) that you can over dose some of these chemicals.

If you can try and fuel up at the same station, so that you have a consistency on the fuel, then use your additive and make observations on it including mpg. Then run a couple 2 or 3 tanks of just fuel from same station and make your observations again before adding some other additive.
Post back your observations.

on edit:

I like to keep an open mind and try products myself. That is why I came to this forum, so that I could learn about new products, try them and decide for myself.
 
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Originally Posted By: kschachn
Ahha OK, a bunch of posts on a forum. I thought you meant a laboratory study or something that was controlled and gave repeatable results.

I read through some of the posts (there are a lot), and I guess I got stuck on the first one where the poster states:

Quote:
you guys know I test constantly and oil/tribology is my thing so here goes. I know the gasoline today is . Very dry and poor quality. Throw in ethanol and you got /corrosive gasoline.


Honestly, that right there tells me all I need to know. The guy already thinks there is some sort of problem with today's gasoline and is looking for a solution. Today's gasoline is not "poor quality", no matter how you look at it. And it's not corrosive, we've discussed that to death here on BITOG.

But thanks for the link and the posts. It's just that that whole thing (at least what I read) is full of myths, subjective observations and completely non-scientific testing. Years ago I worked in the research division of a large, multinational corporation and we had to write papers on our work. They had to be reviewed by our peers, and perhaps that has jaded me somewhat. That collection of posts on the forum wouldn't stand up for a millisecond under any sort of scientific review.

For example, look at this:

http://www.ls1.com/forums/f48/been-testing-oil-91206/index24.html#post1923546

Really? The whole massive thread appears to be one large bull session where "Sarge" relates his experiences and works to subjugate the non-believers.

Posts like this one are everywhere:

http://www.ls1.com/forums/f48/been-testing-oil-91206/index28.html#post1947252

There is no way you could attribute that perceived change in fuel economy to the additive. No way. And yet no one challenges such a claim as far as I can see.

Don't think I believe every test under the sun has to be performed in a laboratory. It's just that from what I read in that thread, and many such threads here on BITOG, the truth is that based on the methodology presented there's no way on earth any sort of conclusion could be reached. There's just too many uncontrolled variables entering into the equation.

Originally Posted By: 19jacobob93

Yeah heres the link
http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91206

Its over 50 pages long and i read every single post before trying it out myself!
As for the plugs yeah nothing special but i replaced some fairly fouled ones with 50k on them and these ones have 40k on them and are spotless, in that time the only variable that has changed is the addition of TCW3.


Are there any products that you might be able to recommend, based on some of your testing and research. I don't know what your status is with any corporation and if that would allow you to contribute. As such, I respect if you are not able to do so.
 
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John-I can't give you any data based in science or standardized testing methods, only a lot of years of fooling around with different things. All I know is the sooty [censored] lining the tail pipe of my daughter's car was gone with the addition of TCW3 in less than a month of dosing it. Nothing changed other than the use of TCW3. [censored] I'll call it a benefit, and if that was the only benefit it was worth it. What sucks is I'm home and I'll bet big money she'll stop doing it as soon as the bottle with the markings I left her is used up. Maybe even sooner.-RD
 
it may coincidental, but i have noticed the soot on my tail pipe clean up with the use of acetone alone over time-this noticed when i ran acetone alone for a good stretch of time, say 2 or 3 months. i'll be more observant as i run some of the other additives.

recently i have gone to rotating through the gamut of chemicals and currently i am running none as I establish an subjective baseline for my oil additives testing i am doing-see other thread on oil additive section if you like.

i know that the hardest part of all of this is drawing conclusions but it seems if i am following mr. kschanchn and a few others, the main benefit of some of the ucl's is in keeping things clean and not lubricating. but i can't help but think that some lubrication does take place myself...now, i came here to learn and so i hope i am not over stepping my boundaries of a new member with only shade tree mechanic status and no training or education in the fields that many folks here may have spent a lot of time in.
 
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I think it does some lubricating, if it didn't a TC engine would seize up real fast. Now in a small dose its another story, no news there. I've read a lot of threads here, used the stuff for years and think it leaves a residual oil film, especially on the insides of the injectors. For guys like me that have one person in the house and more than one vehicle, there's always something that sits for a while. I like the idea of that film of oil. Does it matter? Maybe, I really liked the clean up job it did on my daughter's tail pipe, so I'll focus on that. That alone makes it worth the cost and the effort for me. If its cleaning the tailpipe it must be cleaning something in front of it along the line.-RD
 
+1 apply common sense, of course when tcw3 is exposed to moving parts it will reduce friction add the fact that it's cleansing as well with no adverse side effect and you have the perfect product to juice your fuel...The mfgs. cannot trumpet the benefits lest face the rath of our EPA.
 
I'm another that is a regular user of top cylinder lubes. They lube the fuel pump, injectors and the back-side of the intake valves, as well as the upper cylinder (ahead of wear the rings travel).

If you don't lubricate the upper cylinder with a fuel add, the rings leach a minute amount of engine oil from the sump. One thing I saw immediately, was that any oil consumption the engine typically has, disappears when you use a UCL.

I usually see spikes in fuel economy when using some form of UCL. You are probably reducing the amount of internal friction inside the motor, enough that it increases fuel economy.

I use UCLs intermittently with detergents like Red Line Oil SI-1 to ensure residues don't get built up anywhere.

I also use UCLs heavily on new engines believing that it helps the engine (the rings) break-in more gradually. My engines are all tight and burn no oil between changes, even the OPE engines. Engine oil stays cleaner, longer too ... even when using high-detergent oils like HDEOs.

I use Lucas UCL (bought by the gallon), MMO and/or TCW3.
 
Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
I'm another that is a regular user of top cylinder lubes. They lube the fuel pump, injectors and the back-side of the intake valves, as well as the upper cylinder (ahead of wear the rings travel).

If you don't lubricate the upper cylinder with a fuel add, the rings leach a minute amount of engine oil from the sump. One thing I saw immediately, was that any oil consumption the engine typically has, disappears when you use a UCL.

I usually see spikes in fuel economy when using some form of UCL. You are probably reducing the amount of internal friction inside the motor, enough that it increases fuel economy.

I use UCLs intermittently with detergents like Red Line Oil SI-1 to ensure residues don't get built up anywhere.

I also use UCLs heavily on new engines believing that it helps the engine (the rings) break-in more gradually. My engines are all tight and burn no oil between changes, even the OPE engines. Engine oil stays cleaner, longer too ... even when using high-detergent oils like HDEOs.

I use Lucas UCL (bought by the gallon), MMO and/or TCW3.


Nicely put. You listed many of the benefits. I am also a long time user of UCL (TCW3, MMO, Lucas).

For me, I do not really track MPG but I notice a smoother running engine, less noise, and more responsive gas pedal. That is enough for me to continue to use them.

Got a new car in December and I start putting UCL in the second tank after the first free dealer tank of gas. I notice an immediate improvement in the smoothness of the new engine. Now I can hardly hear the engine running when idling while some owners of the same car are complaining about noisy engine in forums.

A couple of my cars do not get to drive frequently. I believe the UCL also minimize corrosion of the tank and other steel components. Sorry, no picture to show you the before and after but I do not care if you believe or not.
shocked.gif
 
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