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I wasn't surprised when I looked at M1's UK site and seen 0W-40 is recommended for this vehicle. 10W-30 and 20W-50 are alternates.
5w-30 in 2014 Camry 2AR-FE
- Thread starter bionictony
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
In fact there are only disadvantages in running a heavier grade including increased start-up wear.
M1 0W-40 is lighter at start-up than the 5W-30 I was using. Oil pressure is instantaneous and max pressure is the same hot or cold.
In fact there are only disadvantages in running a heavier grade including increased start-up wear.
M1 0W-40 is lighter at start-up than the 5W-30 I was using. Oil pressure is instantaneous and max pressure is the same hot or cold.
Originally Posted By: bionictony
I have a lot of Pennzoil ultra 5w-30 syn motor oil. I know 0w-20 is recommended for this engine. Using thicker oil will reduce MPG also. Will it be OK to use this? I'm going to do my first oil change at 5K and have the dealer do it at 10K. I know syn oil can go for longer but I live in the city a good mix of highway and stop and go traffic. Should I do the first oil change sooner? I also picked up a 12 pack of cartridges from Toyota for $51.
All i can add to this is that in Germany where no CAFE exist xw20w is only for Hybrids.
The point about CAFE is valid because the manufacturer has to recommend the oil that was used to obtain the numbers hence the wording must be changed back to 0w20.
0w30 and 5w30 is considered the optimal oil for the engine. Germany has hot summers and cold winters, city and highway driving.
They can also get 0w20 with not problem so its not like it isn't produced or sold there.
The engines are not different.
Here is Toyota list of TGMO oils currently available. The 5w30 has "Von Toyota für alle Motoren empfohlen" recommended for all Toyota engines.
http://www.toyota-bocholt.de/userdata/9001/files/2696_oel_060612.pdf
I run Euro spec 5w30 and 0w40 in Honda engines spec for 5w20 with no problem whatsoever and some of these engines have been running on it for almost 100K.
I do have a specific reason for running it, it has to do with an issue on one particular engine, not just for fun.
I would run the PU and not think twice about it.
I have a lot of Pennzoil ultra 5w-30 syn motor oil. I know 0w-20 is recommended for this engine. Using thicker oil will reduce MPG also. Will it be OK to use this? I'm going to do my first oil change at 5K and have the dealer do it at 10K. I know syn oil can go for longer but I live in the city a good mix of highway and stop and go traffic. Should I do the first oil change sooner? I also picked up a 12 pack of cartridges from Toyota for $51.
All i can add to this is that in Germany where no CAFE exist xw20w is only for Hybrids.
The point about CAFE is valid because the manufacturer has to recommend the oil that was used to obtain the numbers hence the wording must be changed back to 0w20.
0w30 and 5w30 is considered the optimal oil for the engine. Germany has hot summers and cold winters, city and highway driving.
They can also get 0w20 with not problem so its not like it isn't produced or sold there.
The engines are not different.
Here is Toyota list of TGMO oils currently available. The 5w30 has "Von Toyota für alle Motoren empfohlen" recommended for all Toyota engines.
http://www.toyota-bocholt.de/userdata/9001/files/2696_oel_060612.pdf
I run Euro spec 5w30 and 0w40 in Honda engines spec for 5w20 with no problem whatsoever and some of these engines have been running on it for almost 100K.
I do have a specific reason for running it, it has to do with an issue on one particular engine, not just for fun.
I would run the PU and not think twice about it.
Originally Posted By: edhackett
The track pack GT has the oil cooler and specifies 5W-50. I still don't understand why they specify 5W-50 if they believe 5W-20 is all that is necessary.
Ed
A bigger radiator as well.
I think this is pretty easy to figure out. 5w-20 is adequate and good for CAFE. On lower production optioned vehicles CAFE isn't as big of a deal so they go with something with more headroom.
The track pack GT has the oil cooler and specifies 5W-50. I still don't understand why they specify 5W-50 if they believe 5W-20 is all that is necessary.
Ed
A bigger radiator as well.
I think this is pretty easy to figure out. 5w-20 is adequate and good for CAFE. On lower production optioned vehicles CAFE isn't as big of a deal so they go with something with more headroom.
Would you consider M1 5w-30 on the thinner or thicker side of the 30wt spectrum?
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
In fact there are only disadvantages in running a heavier grade including increased start-up wear.
M1 0W-40 is lighter at start-up than the 5W-30 I was using. Oil pressure is instantaneous and max pressure is the same hot or cold.
And what A5/B5 5W-30 was that?
And this thread is about PU 5W-30 and a 0W-20, so why bring up M1 0W-40?
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
In fact there are only disadvantages in running a heavier grade including increased start-up wear.
M1 0W-40 is lighter at start-up than the 5W-30 I was using. Oil pressure is instantaneous and max pressure is the same hot or cold.
And what A5/B5 5W-30 was that?
And this thread is about PU 5W-30 and a 0W-20, so why bring up M1 0W-40?
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: 13Tacoma
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Ford doesn't "believe" their 5W-50 is best for a tracked Mustang. If the engine management safeties kick in too often the optional oil cooler is what they recommend not a heavier oil.
The fact is you need pretty high oil temp's, something north of 230F before the safeties are activated and most owners will never trigger them including during track day activities as one member has learned.
This makes sense to me. When I was researching overheating oil temps in a friends Mercedes C63 on track days, no one suggested changing to a thicker oil. The ecu put it into limp mode a few times with 0w40. The recommended oil on this vehicle is already 0w40. All that was recommended was a more efficient oil cooler.
The track pack GT has the oil cooler and specifies 5W-50. I still don't understand why they specify 5W-50 if they believe 5W-20 is all that is necessary.
Ed
Because the track pack option has factored in the conditions of actual competitive racing under very hot ambient conditions. That means flat out driving often nose to tail for an hour or more on end. Air flow is greatly restricted to the coolers and oil temp's can soar. Actual racing like this is not generally allowed at most DE track events.
Originally Posted By: 13Tacoma
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Ford doesn't "believe" their 5W-50 is best for a tracked Mustang. If the engine management safeties kick in too often the optional oil cooler is what they recommend not a heavier oil.
The fact is you need pretty high oil temp's, something north of 230F before the safeties are activated and most owners will never trigger them including during track day activities as one member has learned.
This makes sense to me. When I was researching overheating oil temps in a friends Mercedes C63 on track days, no one suggested changing to a thicker oil. The ecu put it into limp mode a few times with 0w40. The recommended oil on this vehicle is already 0w40. All that was recommended was a more efficient oil cooler.
The track pack GT has the oil cooler and specifies 5W-50. I still don't understand why they specify 5W-50 if they believe 5W-20 is all that is necessary.
Ed
Because the track pack option has factored in the conditions of actual competitive racing under very hot ambient conditions. That means flat out driving often nose to tail for an hour or more on end. Air flow is greatly restricted to the coolers and oil temp's can soar. Actual racing like this is not generally allowed at most DE track events.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The main advantages of a high VI 0W-20 oil have been largely mitigated during high speed driving and therefore other factors such as the rate of oil consumption may make a 30 grade oil more suitable.
The wording in that manual excerpt is simply nonsensical. In one paragraph, it states that 0w-20 must be used, 5w-20 basically for emergencies, to replaced with 0w-20 at the next OCI. Then, it talks about higher viscosities for certain conditions. Which is it? It must have 0w-20 or not?
The main advantages of a high VI 0W-20 oil have been largely mitigated during high speed driving and therefore other factors such as the rate of oil consumption may make a 30 grade oil more suitable.
The wording in that manual excerpt is simply nonsensical. In one paragraph, it states that 0w-20 must be used, 5w-20 basically for emergencies, to replaced with 0w-20 at the next OCI. Then, it talks about higher viscosities for certain conditions. Which is it? It must have 0w-20 or not?
My interpretation is that 0W-20 is the recommended oil grade and
no other oil grade is required including for extreme uses.
That said, since the 0W-20 grade may not be readily available everywhere (although it pretty much is now in NA) a 5W-20 may be used in a pinch but you should return to the 0W-20 grade as soon as you can. Meaning one oil change with 5W-20 is okay but don't make a habit of it.
For extreme use like constant high speed driving you can use a 0W-30 (only the second number of the SAE may be higher).
but that is elective meaning you can't substitute a 5W-30 just because it's more readily available.
Since they don't define what high speed or extreme use actually is one could presumably use M1 0W-30 all the time.
The bottom line is that 0W-20 is the grade they want you to use but they are leaving the door open to the occasional use of a 5W-20 and if you think you're using the car for extreme purposes
a 0W-30.
no other oil grade is required including for extreme uses.
That said, since the 0W-20 grade may not be readily available everywhere (although it pretty much is now in NA) a 5W-20 may be used in a pinch but you should return to the 0W-20 grade as soon as you can. Meaning one oil change with 5W-20 is okay but don't make a habit of it.
For extreme use like constant high speed driving you can use a 0W-30 (only the second number of the SAE may be higher).
but that is elective meaning you can't substitute a 5W-30 just because it's more readily available.
Since they don't define what high speed or extreme use actually is one could presumably use M1 0W-30 all the time.
The bottom line is that 0W-20 is the grade they want you to use but they are leaving the door open to the occasional use of a 5W-20 and if you think you're using the car for extreme purposes
a 0W-30.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
My interpretation is that 0W-20 is the recommended oil grade and no other oil grade is required including for extreme uses.
Well, if it were me and I were one of those persons really worried about warranty, I'd be using the 0w-20. If it's driven really, really fast, can it use 20w-50?
My interpretation is that 0W-20 is the recommended oil grade and no other oil grade is required including for extreme uses.
Well, if it were me and I were one of those persons really worried about warranty, I'd be using the 0w-20. If it's driven really, really fast, can it use 20w-50?
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Well, if it were me and I were one of those persons really worried about warranty, I'd be using the 0w-20. If it's driven really, really fast, can it use 20w-50?
Not according to my interpretation, only one grade heavier and it still must be a 0W oil; that means a 0W-30. And the car doesn't have to be driven "really, really fast" the owner just has to think he is driving really fast which for some slow-pokes could be 70 mph, so I think you'd still qualify!! Ha ha!
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Well, if it were me and I were one of those persons really worried about warranty, I'd be using the 0w-20. If it's driven really, really fast, can it use 20w-50?
Not according to my interpretation, only one grade heavier and it still must be a 0W oil; that means a 0W-30. And the car doesn't have to be driven "really, really fast" the owner just has to think he is driving really fast which for some slow-pokes could be 70 mph, so I think you'd still qualify!! Ha ha!
In the absence of a specification, you can't "interpret" anything except "higher viscosity"...except that if they are specifying higher speed/load, it's probably not cold cranking that they are worried about.
Interpreting it as 0W is simply applying your own bias to the interpretation.
Interpreting it as 0W is simply applying your own bias to the interpretation.
Just playing Devilas advocate here but why is TGMO sold in Germany not 0w20?
It isn't even offered for these engines 0w30 or 5w30.
I will talk to the dealer when i am there but last i knew (last year) Toyota was specifically recommending against it, for use in Prius only in city use. 0w20 is widely available at any dealer.
I assume that has to do with the shorter duty cycle.
Something sure isn't right with these recommendations. How much of it is CAFE driven?
I mean if its good enough for track use then it should be good enough for the Autobahn right?.
It isn't even offered for these engines 0w30 or 5w30.
I will talk to the dealer when i am there but last i knew (last year) Toyota was specifically recommending against it, for use in Prius only in city use. 0w20 is widely available at any dealer.
I assume that has to do with the shorter duty cycle.
Something sure isn't right with these recommendations. How much of it is CAFE driven?
I mean if its good enough for track use then it should be good enough for the Autobahn right?.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Something sure isn't right with these recommendations. How much of it is CAFE driven?
I mean if its good enough for track use then it should be good enough for the Autobahn right?.
There is nothing wrong with the recommendation, it's perfectly clear, Toyota wants you to use the 0W-20 grade. The fact that they have given some flexibility in the grade choice is never here nor there and quite frankly we're just having some fun with it. 0W-20 is pretty much the sole grade recommended now across the entire Toyota and Lexus model line in NA.
An it is good enough for the track as FR-S owners can attest to.
If other grades are recommended in Germany that doesn't mean that the lubrication demands of the engines aren't being met with the 0W-20 grade because they obviously are.
Something sure isn't right with these recommendations. How much of it is CAFE driven?
I mean if its good enough for track use then it should be good enough for the Autobahn right?.
There is nothing wrong with the recommendation, it's perfectly clear, Toyota wants you to use the 0W-20 grade. The fact that they have given some flexibility in the grade choice is never here nor there and quite frankly we're just having some fun with it. 0W-20 is pretty much the sole grade recommended now across the entire Toyota and Lexus model line in NA.
An it is good enough for the track as FR-S owners can attest to.
If other grades are recommended in Germany that doesn't mean that the lubrication demands of the engines aren't being met with the 0W-20 grade because they obviously are.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Just playing Devilas advocate here but why is TGMO sold in Germany not 0w20?
It isn't even offered for these engines 0w30 or 5w30.
It's simple, Trav. Toyota hates Germany.
Ed
Just playing Devilas advocate here but why is TGMO sold in Germany not 0w20?
It isn't even offered for these engines 0w30 or 5w30.
It's simple, Trav. Toyota hates Germany.
Ed
Last edited:
We are not talking about just any 5w30...but rather about one of the finest, lowest NOACK, thinnest (9.9 cst @100*C.. which isn't far above a 20 wt. anyway) synthetic oils available.
Except for (possibly) fractional MPG differences I really don't see how using this oil (PU 5w30) could be a negative especially in the mild weather of California.
I probably wouldn't run a dino 5w30 in a new Camry but PU is not your average oil.
I'm betting this car would live a long, happy life with minimal MPG difference on PU 5W30 changed at 10K intervals (after verification via UOA)....
Except for (possibly) fractional MPG differences I really don't see how using this oil (PU 5w30) could be a negative especially in the mild weather of California.
I probably wouldn't run a dino 5w30 in a new Camry but PU is not your average oil.
I'm betting this car would live a long, happy life with minimal MPG difference on PU 5W30 changed at 10K intervals (after verification via UOA)....
Originally Posted By: pbm
We are not talking about just any 5w30...but rather about one of the finest, lowest NOACK, thinnest (9.9 cst @100*C.. which isn't far above a 20 wt. anyway) synthetic oils available.
....
The original PU 5W-30 was a decent oil but it's not the "thinnest" 5W-30 with a HTHSV of 3.1cP and a 165 VI. The KV100 spec' tells you more about the oils' chemistry, it's doesn't correlate well with operational viscosity.
That said, based on it's KV40 spec' of 55.7cSt it's 50% heavier than TGMO with it's KV40 of 37.2cSt. At room temperature it's 75% heavier and at 32F it's a whopping 120% heavier.
So there's a pretty big viscosity difference between the two oils.
We are not talking about just any 5w30...but rather about one of the finest, lowest NOACK, thinnest (9.9 cst @100*C.. which isn't far above a 20 wt. anyway) synthetic oils available.
....
The original PU 5W-30 was a decent oil but it's not the "thinnest" 5W-30 with a HTHSV of 3.1cP and a 165 VI. The KV100 spec' tells you more about the oils' chemistry, it's doesn't correlate well with operational viscosity.
That said, based on it's KV40 spec' of 55.7cSt it's 50% heavier than TGMO with it's KV40 of 37.2cSt. At room temperature it's 75% heavier and at 32F it's a whopping 120% heavier.
So there's a pretty big viscosity difference between the two oils.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Trav
Something sure isn't right with these recommendations. How much of it is CAFE driven?
I mean if its good enough for track use then it should be good enough for the Autobahn right?.
There is nothing wrong with the recommendation, it's perfectly clear, Toyota wants you to use the 0W-20 grade. The fact that they have given some flexibility in the grade choice is never here nor there and quite frankly we're just having some fun with it. 0W-20 is pretty much the sole grade recommended now across the entire Toyota and Lexus model line in NA.
An it is good enough for the track as FR-S owners can attest to.
If other grades are recommended in Germany that doesn't mean that the lubrication demands of the engines aren't being met with the 0W-20 grade because they obviously are.
Thats no real answer is it? I know its clear, the question is what is the motivation, it cant be performance or it would be spec in Germany also.
Why the discrepancy? The 0w20 is widely available from dealers and the aftermarket so if it was really good enough why don't they just spec it?
Ford does for a few of their hybrid engines also. I don't know i have a feeling the 0w20 may not be optimal.
BTW we are not talking any old 5w30 but TGMO 5w30.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Something sure isn't right with these recommendations. How much of it is CAFE driven?
I mean if its good enough for track use then it should be good enough for the Autobahn right?.
There is nothing wrong with the recommendation, it's perfectly clear, Toyota wants you to use the 0W-20 grade. The fact that they have given some flexibility in the grade choice is never here nor there and quite frankly we're just having some fun with it. 0W-20 is pretty much the sole grade recommended now across the entire Toyota and Lexus model line in NA.
An it is good enough for the track as FR-S owners can attest to.
If other grades are recommended in Germany that doesn't mean that the lubrication demands of the engines aren't being met with the 0W-20 grade because they obviously are.
Thats no real answer is it? I know its clear, the question is what is the motivation, it cant be performance or it would be spec in Germany also.
Why the discrepancy? The 0w20 is widely available from dealers and the aftermarket so if it was really good enough why don't they just spec it?
Ford does for a few of their hybrid engines also. I don't know i have a feeling the 0w20 may not be optimal.
BTW we are not talking any old 5w30 but TGMO 5w30.
First the facts, TGMO 0W-20 is certainly "good enough" and obviously meets all the lubrication needs of the engines that it's spec'd for.
Why is it not used universally in Germany and other third world countries (just kidding)? I don't know but I suspect it has a lot to do with long held biases and the perception that they simply need to run an oil that light. Some models like the Toyota 86 sportscar that's also spec'd for 0W-20 has TGMO 0W-20 supplied for that model even in Countries like Australia. So it looks like Toyota is trying to break that perception.
The fact that FUCHS of Germany has also made a 0W-20 that is approved for the BMW N20 turbo engine might also with time help turn the tide in favour of lighter oils.
I agree with you that the main motivation is maximizing fuel economy but you can put to rest any remaining thought that engine longevity has been sacrificed in the slightest in the process.
Why is it not used universally in Germany and other third world countries (just kidding)? I don't know but I suspect it has a lot to do with long held biases and the perception that they simply need to run an oil that light. Some models like the Toyota 86 sportscar that's also spec'd for 0W-20 has TGMO 0W-20 supplied for that model even in Countries like Australia. So it looks like Toyota is trying to break that perception.
The fact that FUCHS of Germany has also made a 0W-20 that is approved for the BMW N20 turbo engine might also with time help turn the tide in favour of lighter oils.
I agree with you that the main motivation is maximizing fuel economy but you can put to rest any remaining thought that engine longevity has been sacrificed in the slightest in the process.
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