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#3388959 - 06/04/14 06:07 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: 440Magnum]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 486
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I agree.... but at that type of concentration of MMO, do you really believe its doing ANYTHING? I mean literally ANYTHING at all, whether beneficial or not?

That's my point. In such a low concentration, its probably not doing anything. At least cleaners with PEA have a chemical mechanism that arguably works in such low concentrations.

It's very cynical to think it's been sold for almost 100 years and is not doing anything.

Regardless, 'not doing anything' has not been my experience. I first encountered MMO in the military. We mooched it from the Air Force in 5-gallon jerry cans, for use in several stationary engines (via oilers). I think the Air Force, who stocked MMO in 55-gallon drums, was using it as a fuel additive in light observation planes (Piper-Cessna-like aircraft). It is still used in general aviation aircraft. It was widely used around south Texas in stationary engines, oil-field equipment.

Somewhat later, during the days of smog pumps, I had an automobile engine that was burning valves... MMO was the cure. The first set of valves barely made 20,000 miles - the second set was still going strong at 80k. As an added benefit, I got a measurable increase [see message 3204737] in cylinder pressures, which should translate into more power and/or increased mileage. Even a 1-mpg mileage increase would pay for the MMO (which is relatively inexpensive).

I've torn down engines that had been running MMO for an extended period. The internal engine parts - rings, cylinder heads, piston tops, valves - were very clean - looked new - it was a pleasure working on the engine. I suspect that it would also keep carburetors and fuel system parts clean as well, but most of the time I have put MMO directly into the engine with an oiler, which bypasses most of the fuel system. I've rarely used it as an oil additive. On those occasions, it seemed to work - a lot of crud came out of the pan - but the results may have been the same with or without the MMO.

I am aware of BITOG users whose religion cannot conceive of upper cylinder lubrication. I don't expect to make any converts. It's also unclear what that group might say which would change my experiences with MMO, particularly since most of them have never used it. Add Scotty Kilmer (in the subject line) to the never-used-it-but-don't-like-it ranks.
_________________________
2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3389015 - 06/04/14 07:14 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: 440Magnum]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 486
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I'm not bashing MMO. Read back, I've used it. Just not as a routine fuel additive.

Here's a simple test you (or anyone) can try. It's summer, so you might be taking a trip, right? The next time you start a trip (say 400-500 miles or more one way), fill up your vehicle right before you leave. Note your odometer reading. Fill it up again, promptly, when you reach your destination. Compute your mpg for the outbound leg of your trip.

When you get ready to return home, do the same thing: fill up right before you leave, but add a pint of MMO (a pint is good for about 15 gallons of fuel - adjust for your tank size). Note your odometer. If you fill up en route, add another pint of MMO with each fill up. When you finally get home, fill up promptly and then calculate your mpg again.
_________________________
2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3389028 - 06/04/14 07:28 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
dave1251 Offline


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 6644
Loc: Maricopa, AZ
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I'm not bashing MMO. Read back, I've used it. Just not as a routine fuel additive.

Here's a simple test you (or anyone) can try. It's summer, so you might be taking a trip, right? The next time you start a trip (say 400-500 miles or more one way), fill up your vehicle right before you leave. Note your odometer reading. Fill it up again, promptly, when you reach your destination. Compute your mpg for the outbound leg of your trip.

When you get ready to return home, do the same thing: fill up right before you leave, but add a pint of MMO (a pint is good for about 15 gallons of fuel - adjust for your tank size). Note your odometer. If you fill up en route, add another pint of MMO with each fill up. When you finally get home, fill up promptly and then calculate your mpg again.


Doing this would not prove anything. Also smoking tobacco has been sold for 500 years add or take a decade or two. Just because a product has been sold for a period of time does not mean the benefits of a product outweigh the negatives.
_________________________
make the inside of your engine oil cap white.
don't use.

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#3389031 - 06/04/14 07:32 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave1251]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 486
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Doing this would not prove anything. Also smoking tobacco has been sold for 500 years add or take a decade or two. Just because a product has been sold for a period of time does not mean the benefits of a product outweigh the negatives.

Spoken like a person who has never used MMO. Sir, there is nothing that could be done to convince you. As noted above, I don't expect to make any converts.
_________________________
2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3389040 - 06/04/14 07:40 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
dave1251 Offline


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 6644
Loc: Maricopa, AZ
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Doing this would not prove anything. Also smoking tobacco has been sold for 500 years add or take a decade or two. Just because a product has been sold for a period of time does not mean the benefits of a product outweigh the negatives.

Spoken like a person who has never used MMO. Sir, there is nothing that could be done to convince you. As noted above, I don't expect to make any converts.


Well you can come clean as a MMO spokesperson. I have in fact used MMO both as a fuel system cleaner and as a oil additive.

Guess what happened? Any answer other than a whole lot of nothing is the incorrect answer.

Troll around websites that post UOA's. Find one with a leaky fuel injector and have the poster use only MMO with the prescribed dosage no other fuel system additive. Will MMO solve the leaky injector problem.

This would prove something.
_________________________
make the inside of your engine oil cap white.
don't use.

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#3389051 - 06/04/14 07:54 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave1251]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 486
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Well you can come clean as a MMO spokesperson. I have in fact used MMO both as a fuel system cleaner and as a oil additive.

I am not a spokesperson for MMO. Rather than getting testy or name calling, why don't you describe your specific uses of MMO? What did you hope to achieve? What actually happened? You mentioned using it as an oil additive - what was your goal?

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Troll around websites that post UOA's. Find one with a leaky fuel injector and have the poster use only MMO with the prescribed dosage no other fuel system additive. Will MMO solve the leaky injector problem. This would prove something.

My fuel injectors don't leak. If they did, MMO might solve the problem, maybe, maybe not. Why do you suggest that application? Have you tried it? What would it prove?
_________________________
2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3389081 - 06/04/14 08:23 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
dave1251 Offline


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 6644
Loc: Maricopa, AZ
1, My goal was simple. I found a dirty Vulcan that has some sludge due to the infamous coolant leaking problems Vulcan's can have.

Guess what that Vulcan was not any cleaner after following MMO's instructions.


2, If you can find a engine with a leaky injector and if MMO can correct the leaky injector I would be surprised.

There have been UOA's that have found problems with engines fuel systems. Often the recommendation is to try a modern fuel system cleaner that is PEA based. PEA based cleaners such as Techron and Regane have proven their worth.


MMO was once cutting edge and useful. It's day in the sun has come and gone according to my experience and opinion.
_________________________
make the inside of your engine oil cap white.
don't use.

Top
#3389084 - 06/04/14 08:27 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3567
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: dave5358

Here's a simple test you (or anyone) can try. It's summer, so you might be taking a trip, right? The next time you start a trip (say 400-500 miles or more one way), fill up your vehicle right before you leave. Note your odometer reading. Fill it up again, promptly, when you reach your destination. Compute your mpg for the outbound leg of your trip.

When you get ready to return home, do the same thing: fill up right before you leave, but add a pint of MMO (a pint is good for about 15 gallons of fuel - adjust for your tank size). Note your odometer. If you fill up en route, add another pint of MMO with each fill up. When you finally get home, fill up promptly and then calculate your mpg again.


That is terrible advice. The two directions of a round trip will almost always produce different MPGs because of altitude changes and wind direction. The only way to do a trip test is to do the round trip once and calculate MPGs to negate any influence of wind and altitude changes. Then do the same trip with at the same approximate ambient temperature and your new variable.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

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#3389185 - 06/04/14 10:20 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave1251]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 486
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: dave1251
My goal was simple. I found a dirty Vulcan that has some sludge due to the infamous coolant leaking problems Vulcan's can have. Guess what that Vulcan was not any cleaner after following MMO's instructions.

You added MMO to the oil of a Kawasaki Vulcan motorcycle. The oil was contaminated with coolant from a fitting or head-gasket leak. Do I have the basic facts correct?

You were not satisfied with its cleaning function. I doubt that MMO has 'instructions' for this specific situation, but okay, chalk it up to a failure. If it were me, I would be less concerned about sludge and more concerned about the coolant eating my bearings.

Originally Posted By: dave1251
If you can find a engine with a leaky injector and if MMO can correct the leaky injector I would be surprised.

So your conclusion is that this wouldn't work, but you haven't tried it. I'll confess, I haven't tried it either, but I wouldn't condemn a product to failure based on not trying something.

Originally Posted By: dave1251
There have been UOA's that have found problems with engines fuel systems. Often the recommendation is to try a modern fuel system cleaner that is PEA based. PEA based cleaners such as Techron and Regane have proven their worth.

MMO was once cutting edge and useful. It's day in the sun has come and gone according to my experience and opinion.

Okay, we should conclude MMO's day has come and gone... because Techron and Regane have proven their worth? You can prove I was in Cleveland on Tuesday, because you were in Cincinnati on Thursday?

I am aware of BITOG users whose religion cannot conceive of upper cylinder lubrication. I don't expect to make any converts. It's also unclear what that group might say which would change my experiences with MMO, particularly since most of them have never used it.
_________________________
2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3389199 - 06/04/14 10:38 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: badtlc]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 486
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Here's a simple test you (or anyone) can try. It's summer, so you might be taking a trip, right? The next time you start a trip (say 400-500 miles or more one way), fill up your vehicle right before you leave. Note your odometer reading. Fill it up again, promptly, when you reach your destination. Compute your mpg for the outbound leg of your trip.

When you get ready to return home, do the same thing: fill up right before you leave, but add a pint of MMO (a pint is good for about 15 gallons of fuel - adjust for your tank size). Note your odometer. If you fill up en route, add another pint of MMO with each fill up. When you finally get home, fill up promptly and then calculate your mpg again.

That is terrible advice. The two directions of a round trip will almost always produce different MPGs because of altitude changes and wind direction. The only way to do a trip test is to do the round trip once and calculate MPGs to negate any influence of wind and altitude changes. Then do the same trip with at the same approximate ambient temperature and your new variable.

Wind direction? Altitude changes? How about average speed? Average grade? Proximity of the moon? That is is not simple at all. One simple thing you might check is tire pressure - good advice whether you do MMO or not.

I proposed a simple test. The result will be anecdotal [as are just about all recommendations for additives] but the result should speak for itself. If someone tries this test and gets a positive result, they may wish to experiment further. If they don't see any benefit, then they're out the price of a few pints of MMO. And, that's terrible advice???
_________________________
2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3389210 - 06/04/14 10:59 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3124
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Here's a simple test you (or anyone) can try. It's summer, so you might be taking a trip, right? The next time you start a trip (say 400-500 miles or more one way), fill up your vehicle right before you leave. Note your odometer reading. Fill it up again, promptly, when you reach your destination. Compute your mpg for the outbound leg of your trip.

When you get ready to return home, do the same thing: fill up right before you leave, but add a pint of MMO (a pint is good for about 15 gallons of fuel - adjust for your tank size). Note your odometer. If you fill up en route, add another pint of MMO with each fill up. When you finally get home, fill up promptly and then calculate your mpg again.

That is terrible advice. The two directions of a round trip will almost always produce different MPGs because of altitude changes and wind direction. The only way to do a trip test is to do the round trip once and calculate MPGs to negate any influence of wind and altitude changes. Then do the same trip with at the same approximate ambient temperature and your new variable.

Wind direction? Altitude changes? How about average speed? Average grade? Proximity of the moon? That is is not simple at all. One simple thing you might check is tire pressure - good advice whether you do MMO or not.

I proposed a simple test. The result will be anecdotal [as are just about all recommendations for additives] but the result should speak for itself. If someone tries this test and gets a positive result, they may wish to experiment further. If they don't see any benefit, then they're out the price of a few pints of MMO. And, that's terrible advice???


Then do it yourself.
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3389234 - 06/04/14 11:22 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2341
Loc: Upper Midwest
You can mow me down too, like everyone else who has said the same thing, but this test would prove nothing. It would be far better to test it in the same direction on days with similar weather.

Even then, no two days are exactly alike in weather and wind speed and direction do make a difference. So does the OAT, so does the kind of gas you bought. So does your velocity and it isn't as simple as average velocity either - instantaneous is also important.

But at least running the same exact route would help a lot rather than going the other way for the second test.

And running it more than twice.


Originally Posted By: dave5358
Here's a simple test you (or anyone) can try. It's summer, so you might be taking a trip, right? The next time you start a trip (say 400-500 miles or more one way), fill up your vehicle right before you leave. Note your odometer reading. Fill it up again, promptly, when you reach your destination. Compute your mpg for the outbound leg of your trip.

When you get ready to return home, do the same thing: fill up right before you leave, but add a pint of MMO (a pint is good for about 15 gallons of fuel - adjust for your tank size). Note your odometer. If you fill up en route, add another pint of MMO with each fill up. When you finally get home, fill up promptly and then calculate your mpg again.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 186K
1996 Honda Accord, 200K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 301K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 222K

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#3389403 - 06/05/14 06:58 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Trajan]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 486
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: dave5358
<snip>I proposed a simple test. The result will be anecdotal [as are just about all recommendations for additives] but the result should speak for itself. If someone tries this test and gets a positive result, they may wish to experiment further. If they don't see any benefit, then they're out the price of a few pints of MMO. And, that's terrible advice???


Then do it yourself.

No, you do it. I already use MMO. Over the years, in a wide variety of situations, it has performed as advertised. I also provided specific details of at least one way I reached that conclusion.

If someone reading the thread is actually looking for information and not just trolling, the test I suggested is a simple introduction to the product.
_________________________
2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3389412 - 06/05/14 07:09 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: kschachn]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 486
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: kschachn
<snip>And running it more than twice.

Do I get to to go on vacation more than twice? Should I have a representative of F.I.A. along to certify the results? On all of the vacations, or just one?

I proposed a simple test. The result will be anecdotal [as are just about all recommendations for additives] but the result should speak for itself. If someone tries this test and gets a positive result, they may wish to experiment further. If they don't see any benefit, then they're out the price of a few pints of MMO.

The amount of hostility to my proposal is absolutely amazing. I am aware of BITOG users whose religion cannot conceive of upper cylinder lubrication. I don't expect to make any converts. It's also unclear what that group might say which would change my actual experiences with MMO, particularly since most of them have never used it.
_________________________
2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3389471 - 06/05/14 08:07 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2341
Loc: Upper Midwest
Well, call it hostility all you like, take it personal, make jokes about the F.I.A. (whatever that is), say we don't have input because we haven't used the product, or say whatever you want to say - but it isn't personal. If someone wants to test something it needs to be a valid test.

The only thing worse than what you suggested would be to take two random drives and compare those. Actually that would be marginally better since it is possible that two random drives would be identical. In your scenario, the only thing you assure is that the two trips are not identical.

No matter what you do, since it is basically an uncontrolled test the results will always be anecdotal. But don't you see that the results of the test you propose would have no meaning whatsoever? Those are two completely different routes.

This is the whole thing with the additive crowd. And once again, it's not about the additive! It's about the analysis of its effectiveness. The results you are going to see, or not see, aren't that big and will be easy to lose in the noise.

Stop taking it personal and retreating behind the straw man wall of "you haven't used it". Rather, devise and run a better test that aims to eliminate variables as much as possible. That's the only way any kind of credible evidence is going to be obtained.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 186K
1996 Honda Accord, 200K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 301K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 222K

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