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#3312233 - 03/14/14 09:23 PM Another MC-820-S cut open
DSparks Offline


Registered: 12/19/13
Posts: 266
Loc: Texas
This is a filter with about 800 miles on it...2009 ford 5.4 3v that has had top end issues...did a super short oci just to see how things were going (satisfy my curiosity) and to maybe flush more debris out....


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#3312243 - 03/14/14 09:31 PM Re: Another MC-820-S cut open [Re: DSparks]
ZeeOSix Offline


Registered: 07/22/10
Posts: 7264
Loc: PNW
Wide pleats at the glued seam ... but looks intact. Hard to say what it would look like at 6,000 miles.

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#3312257 - 03/14/14 09:38 PM Re: Another MC-820-S cut open [Re: DSparks]
TrevorS Offline


Registered: 07/14/13
Posts: 1281
Loc: California
That large spacing must be taking more pressure due to the greater volume of oil that it holds. It can't flex as much at the end caps and gives way.

Maybe the filter medium is too restrictive and / or not strong / rigid enough.

I wonder if the Bosch Premiums are now 99% efficient because they are less restrictive.

Counter to that, have we seen Classics with this problem or only P1 and BPs?

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#3312270 - 03/14/14 09:46 PM Re: Another MC-820-S cut open [Re: TrevorS]
ZeeOSix Offline


Registered: 07/22/10
Posts: 7264
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: TrevorS
That large spacing must be taking more pressure due to the greater volume of oil that it holds. It can't flex as much at the end caps and gives way.

Maybe the filter medium is too restrictive and / or not strong / rigid enough.

I wonder if the Bosch Premiums are now 99% efficient because they are less restrictive.

Counter to that, have we seen Classics with this problem or only P1 and BPs?


The same pressure is acting on all surfaces of the media, it's just that when the pleat spacing is large, the pressure force can push the pleat over to try and flatten it, and that force causes the media to tear at the root of the pleat where it's glued to the end cap. You can take a filter and push the pleat sideways with your finger near the root and can hear the media tearing.

Media tearing is also seen on Purolator Classics. Purolators are not really that restrictive, but they do like every other filter in the world have some delta-p across the media.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451

And what's probably happening is that these media tears are happening in colder weather when the oil is cold and thick, and the filter goes near or into bypass, which means there is more like 12~16 PSI of delta-p acting on the media.

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#3312289 - 03/14/14 10:08 PM Re: Another MC-820-S cut open [Re: DSparks]
TrevorS Offline


Registered: 07/14/13
Posts: 1281
Loc: California
Right those pleats are not as structurally rigid as others. Still I think there is more pressure as well there due to greater volume (eg think of pressure in the sea as you go lower and have more volume above you) but in a pressurized system it could be negligible - I'm sure someone knows for sure if the effect is significant or not.

I suppose the media is slowly getting weaker and the more cold starts the worse it gets. That makes me feel better as my garage never gets below 45ish.

For others this means "1 filter, 1 oci!"

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#3312303 - 03/14/14 10:23 PM Re: Another MC-820-S cut open [Re: DSparks]
TrevorS Offline


Registered: 07/14/13
Posts: 1281
Loc: California
Btw did you notice any evidence that tears were being reported by members in cold areas?

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#3312305 - 03/14/14 10:24 PM Re: Another MC-820-S cut open [Re: ZeeOSix]
HTSS_TR Offline


Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 12901
Loc: Irvine, CA
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
And what's probably happening is that these media tears are happening in colder weather when the oil is cold and thick, and the filter goes near or into bypass, which means there is more like 12~16 PSI of delta-p acting on the media.

Agreed.

In warmer climates like Florida, California, Texas, Arizona ... it's less likely to have tear media.
_________________________
'94 LS400
'00 E430
'04 S2000
"Consumerism has accustomed us to waste. But throwing food away is like stealing it from the poor and hungry" Pop Francis

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#3312312 - 03/14/14 10:32 PM Re: Another MC-820-S cut open [Re: TrevorS]
ZeeOSix Offline


Registered: 07/22/10
Posts: 7264
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Right those pleats are not as structurally rigid as others. Still I think there is more pressure as well there due to greater volume (eg think of pressure in the sea as you go lower and have more volume above you) but in a pressurized system it could be negligible - I'm sure someone knows for sure if the effect is significant or not.


I think what you are eluding to here is that maybe more oil volume flows through the wide open pleats near the seam (due to a slightly less resistive flow path), and that in turn puts more force on the pleats. Yes, that's possible and could be another contributing factor.

BTW - the sea depth analogy doesn't really apply here - that is pressure at depth due to the weight of the water above.

But it could be there is actually more pressure force on these wide open pleats due to more oil flow going through them instead of going through the tighter packed pleats. That would make it important to strive for pretty evenly spaced pleats in a filter's design.

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#3312313 - 03/14/14 10:34 PM Re: Another MC-820-S cut open [Re: DSparks]
TrevorS Offline


Registered: 07/14/13
Posts: 1281
Loc: California
Just saw someone from Tracy CA with an LS400 who said it happened on a Bosch now and a ST ecore years ago.

I don't think this is a cold weather issue as much as pressure at any temp and the construction not being right.

I do wonder if the angle that the filter sits at could be a factor in whether pressure is concentrated in these bigger seams. So there could be a luck factor too.

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#3312320 - 03/14/14 10:38 PM Re: Another MC-820-S cut open [Re: TrevorS]
ZeeOSix Offline


Registered: 07/22/10
Posts: 7264
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Just saw someone from Tracy CA with an LS400 who said it happened on a Bosch now and a ST ecore years ago.

I don't think this is a cold weather issue as much as pressure at any temp and the construction not being right.

I do wonder if the angle that the filter sits at could be a factor in whether pressure is concentrated in these bigger seams. So there could be a luck factor too.


It's not the oil pressure you see on the dash gauge that caused force on the pleats ... it's oil flow which caused a pressure difference across the media. You could have zero flow with the pressure at 100 PSI, and there would be zero force on the pleats. And you could have oil pressure of 30 PSI with a huge oil flow volume going through the filter and causing lots of delta-p and force on the pleats.

And the orientation of the oil filter has no bearing on what the delta-p is across the media.

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#3312336 - 03/14/14 11:00 PM Re: Another MC-820-S cut open [Re: ZeeOSix]
TrevorS Offline


Registered: 07/14/13
Posts: 1281
Loc: California
Will a Motorcraft with a thread end bypass get pressure on the bypass valve before the media or does the entire filter need to be pressurized?

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#3312411 - 03/15/14 01:38 AM Re: Another MC-820-S cut open [Re: TrevorS]
ZeeOSix Offline


Registered: 07/22/10
Posts: 7264
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Will a Motorcraft with a thread end bypass get pressure on the bypass valve before the media or does the entire filter need to be pressurized?


The media and the bypass valve all see the same pressure at the same time. I if the delta-p is slightly above the bypass valve setting, then the bypass valve starts to open to keep that delta-p to that level.
_________________________
A filter's brand name doesn't matter ... what's inside does.

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