Dr Haas' Motor Oil University Article

[windeye]

I started reading the article by Dr Haas in the Motor Oil University section, not yet finished. In describing the formulation difference of mineral multigrade oil and synthetic multigrade oil, he stated that mineral 10W-30 (example of multi-grade) uses straight 10 oil and then VII to make it thicker to meet 100C viscosity, while as synthetic 10W-30 oil uses straight 30 oil and no VII's. Is this correct? Then how does synthetic 10W-30 meet 10W requirement? Excerpt as follows:

Quote:


A 10W-30 multi-grade mineral based oil is made from a 10 grade oil and has VI improvers added to thicken the product in a 212°F engine. It acts as a 30 grade oil when hot. It acts more as a 10 grade oil at startup. I remind you that a 10, 5 or 2 grade oil is still too thick to provide lubrication at startup. They are all too thick at startup. There is currently no engine oil thin enough to operate correctly at startup. They all cause excessive wear at startup. Again, we are discussing the needs of my single hypothetical engine for around town driving.

Oil Type Thickness at 75° F Thickness at 212° F
Straight 30 250 10
10W-30 100 10
0W-30 40 10
Straight 10 30 6
Straight 5 20 4
Straight 2 15 3
Straight 0 12 3 ( est )
( Oil Types – Synthetic / Straight varying Thickness )

Let’s look at the make up of synthetic based oils. A 10W-30 synthetic oil is based on a 30 grade oil. This is unlike the counterpart mineral oil based on a 10 grade oil. There is no VI improver needed. The oil is already correct for the normal operating temperature of 212°F. It has a thickness of 10 while you drive to work. It will never thin yet has the same long term problem as the mineral based oil. They both thicken with extended age.

 

[901Memphis]

Some of that stuff is outdated. There are multiple ways to a finished product these days.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: windeye
I started reading the article by Dr Haas in the Motor Oil University section, not yet finished. In describing the formulation difference of mineral multigrade oil and synthetic multigrade oil, he stated that mineral 10W-30 (example of multi-grade) uses straight 10 oil and then VII to make it thicker to meet 100C viscosity, while as synthetic 10W-30 oil uses straight 30 oil and no VII's. Is this correct?


No.

That article needs to be significantly revised.

Oils are a blend of base stocks. They are blended in a manner that will yield a particular multi-visc behavior and then polymer/VII's are added to this blend to tweak the viscosity characteristics.

It is also possible with some of the synthetic base stocks to blend a multigrade lubricant with few or no VII's. Redline's 5w-30 contains no polymer/VII's and simply relies on the characteristics of the base stocks to achieve its 5w and 30 ratings.

The number in front of the W is the "winter" grade of the oil and simply denotes a resistance to thickening at a particular temperature. The number after the W is the "hot" rating and is measured at 100C.

For the winter rating, the lower the number, the lower the temperature at which it must fall below the maximums for CCS and MRV defined for that category. 0w-xx oils are tested at -35C for CCS and -40C for MRV for example.

Solarent on here some time ago posted how he would blend a 5w-30, it may serve you well to search for it.

 

[zloveraz]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The number in front of the W is the "winter" grade of the oil and simply denotes a resistance to thickening at a particular temperature. The number after the W is the "hot" rating and is measured at 100C.


This quote should be made a sticky across the entire Internet!

I can't tell you how many times I've explained this to friends!

 

[jrustles]

With all due respect to Mr Haas, he was a medical doctor and high-end auto hobbyist, not a tribologist or chemist.

I give him credit for running 0w20s in Maybach's et al- who else could have or would have done that?!

 

[dparm]

That article is way out of date, and I wouldn't obsess over it too much. We've actually disproven several things he talks about.

 

[LoneRanger]

I just want some tribologist to invent a multi vis oil that doesn't surrender to gear shear in a [shared sump] motorcycle engine.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
I just want some tribologist to invent a multi vis oil that doesn't surrender to gear shear in a [shared sump] motorcycle engine.


The problem is that as the oils advance, the engines do too (perhaps faster).

 

[double vanos]

At one point in time Dr Haas was the king of low viscosity oils putting them in very expensive cars that spec'd a much higher grade than he was using.
And a member here once had the tag line " Kerosine that is fully additivized may make a good motor oil" , AE Haas. Or something along those lines.
I always got a chuckle out of that.

 

[Zaedock]

The info is now a bit dated, but we need to give the Doc credit for doing a butt load of work and research, of which some members here have yet to understand.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Mr.Haas is wrong regarding 10W being equivalent 10 grade winter performance; This isnt 1953.

Read Machinery Lubrication or better publications.

BTW most engine wear occurs during engine loading / acceleration shown by comprehensive University studies.
Start up wear is due to acid formation and exhaust reversion which CANNOT be reconciled by a few 10 of cP difference in modern motor oils.

If you are regularly starting your engine between -20F and 0F you should employ a pan and coolant warmer. Don't look to oil to fix anything here.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Zaedock
The info is now a bit dated, but we need to give the Doc credit for doing a butt load of work and research, of which some members here have yet to understand.


A lot of 101 is continuation if old wive's tales, written in an era when access to actual science and information was more easy than ever (not microfiche in a University Library, like it was back in the day).

Along side the 10W-30 is "built" from a 10W, where a "synthetic isn't", there are things like:
* more flow = more lubrication (actual understanding of hydrodynamics is 100 years old, and it's not flow);
* synthetics don't have VI Improvers (rarely true, and certainly not the usual)
* as a result, synthetics don't shear (check the UOAs);
* oil that is too thin is better than oil that is too thick - too thin and the oil wedge disappears, and you are relying on additive...;
* heat is "added" to the oil from the heat of combustion, no mention of it being generated within the bearings/lubricated areas by the work applied to the oil;
* started the myth that RL 20s are actually 30s;
* Mis-representation of the J300 table to demonstrate the above;

That's up to 107...if you use the exams as absolutes, many questions were always incorrect.

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: jrustles

I give him credit for running 0w20s in Maybach's et al- who else could have or would have done that?!


He didn't even do that, not in the way people think. These were custom mixed oils that had HTHS values typical of higher grade oils. When it came to bearing protection his 20 grade was a mid 30 and his 30 grade had a HTHS of a typical 40 grade. These were not off the shelf API energy conserving oils.

Ed

 

[windeye]

Hey, thanks for all your notes. I just began to appreciate how complex of the matter of oil is, esp with time as a factor in the midst. On the other hand, is it possible, given the large member base, to establish some unchanging aspects (in relative terms) and evolving aspects on motor oil?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: jrustles

I give him credit for running 0w20s in Maybach's et al- who else could have or would have done that?!


He didn't even do that, not in the way people think. These were custom mixed oils that had HTHS values typical of higher grade oils. When it came to bearing protection his 20 grade was a mid 30 and his 30 grade had a HTHS of a typical 40 grade. These were not off the shelf API energy conserving oils.Ed

That's true but he is now running a "true" 5W-20 (Motorcraft syn blend) at present in the Lambo' with correspondingly lower oil pressure than what he had with the previous heavier RLI 0W-20.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: jrustles

I give him credit for running 0w20s in Maybach's et al- who else could have or would have done that?!


He didn't even do that, not in the way people think. These were custom mixed oils that had HTHS values typical of higher grade oils. When it came to bearing protection his 20 grade was a mid 30 and his 30 grade had a HTHS of a typical 40 grade. These were not off the shelf API energy conserving oils.Ed

That's true but he is now running a "true" 5W-20 (Motorcraft syn blend) at present in the Lambo' with correspondingly lower oil pressure than what he had with the previous heavier RLI 0W-20.


Has he tried TGMO 0W20 yet?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Has he tried TGMO 0W20 yet?

Running a Ford OEM oil is one thing (he does have Ford Expedition I beleive) but I can't see him swinging by the local Toyota/Lexus dealership to pick up oil with Toyota emblazoned on the bottle, even though it is made by Mobil, and he has used M1 oils in the past. That said it certainly would fit with his philosophy of having the lightest oil possible on start-up at room temperature, but being even lighter than Motorcraft 5W-20 at operating temp's, if he asked me I wouldn't recommend it, not of course without first thickening up with some M1 0W-40.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
The info is now a bit dated, but we need to give the Doc credit for doing a butt load of work and research, of which some members here have yet to understand.


A lot of 101 is continuation if old wive's tales, written in an era when access to actual science and information was more easy than ever (not microfiche in a University Library, like it was back in the day).


Along side the 10W-30 is "built" from a 10W, where a "synthetic isn't", there are things like:
* more flow = more lubrication (actual understanding of hydrodynamics is 100 years old, and it's not flow);
* synthetics don't have VI Improvers (rarely true, and certainly not the usual)
* as a result, synthetics don't shear (check the UOAs);
* oil that is too thin is better than oil that is too thick - too thin and the oil wedge disappears, and you are relying on additive...;
* heat is "added" to the oil from the heat of combustion, no mention of it being generated within the bearings/lubricated areas by the work applied to the oil;
* started the myth that RL 20s are actually 30s;
* Mis-representation of the J300 table to demonstrate the above;

That's up to 107...if you use the exams as absolutes, many questions were always incorrect.


I was surprised to learn that BITOG had this Oil University stuff posted which contained so much incorrect information.

The Moly Basics stuff is also incorrect and Outdated.

Quote:
With all due respect to Mr Haas, he was a medical doctor and high-end auto hobbyist, not a tribologist or chemist.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
A lot of 101 is continuation if old wive's tales, written in an era when access to actual science and information was more easy than ever (not microfiche in a University Library, like it was back in the day).

I've been to the university library a few times over the past number of years. The last time I was in the public library, they still had microfiches, but that was over twenty years ago. I should go back there and ask to be directed to them. Oh, that and the typewriter room.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Has he tried TGMO 0W20 yet?

Running a Ford OEM oil is one thing (he does have Ford Expedition I beleive) but I can't see him swinging by the local Toyota/Lexus dealership to pick up oil with Toyota emblazoned on the bottle, even though it is made by Mobil, and he has used M1 oils in the past. That said it certainly would fit with his philosophy of having the lightest oil possible on start-up at room temperature, but being even lighter than Motorcraft 5W-20 at operating temp's, if he asked me I wouldn't recommend it, not of course without first thickening up with some M1 0W-40.

If I owned that car I'd skip the 20 grade altogether and consider trying M1 0w40 all by itself.