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#3197801 - 11/25/13 02:39 PM Why do people want to complain about dexos?
stchman Offline


Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 498
Loc: St. Louis, MO
I have noticed that a LOT of folks here on this forum seem to take the dexos thing personally.

They complain that dexos is GM strong arming the oil companies into paying them these obscene fees and that the price for a quart of oil will go way up. As a consumer I see no price difference between dexos oils and non-dexos oils. If Valvoline and Amsoil are saving such a boatlod of cash by not paying GM's exorbitant fees, then their oils should be far less expensive. This does not appear to be the case.

Is it because some of the oil religions are being offended? I think so.

I look at it this way, GM is giving a 5 year 100K mile warranty on the drivetrain, they want to make sure people are using quality oil and doing their maintenance when they are supposed to. Trust me, working for 6+ years in the quick lube industry, I have seen more than my share of people that only maintain their car when something goes out. You would shudder at the people that only change the oil when the oil light comes on???!!!!

I don't blame GM for putting restrictions, I would do it as well.
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#3197803 - 11/25/13 02:41 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: stchman]
Quest Offline


Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 6078
Loc: beaver land EH?
same observations as when Dexcool first came out on the market.

Q.
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#3197810 - 11/25/13 02:44 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: stchman]
eljefino Online   content


Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 22959
Loc: ME
It's kind of like blank music CD-Rs with the license fees going to ASCAP. Maybe it's the principle of the thing. I might be recording my garage band on those CD-Rs and am at the same time sending money off to Celene Dion.

I want that nickel licensing fee (or whatever it is) going to Zinc and unicorn tears to make my oil more stout, not Government Motors so they can buy more private helicopters. horse

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#3197815 - 11/25/13 02:48 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: stchman]
bepperb Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 4541
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
It's not GM putting restrictions on the oil to fulfill their warranty. That's not what Dexos is. Most current oils meet that standard.

What it really is: GM charging a licensing fee to put a logo on the bottle. It's basically if you are under this NOACK value you can have the logo... if you pay us 7 cents a gallon. Why on earth anyone would pay that and not just... um... not pay it and put "meets or exceeds Dexos" is beyond me.

I don't care about GM either way, I don't like or hate them. But a spade is a spade and this is a licensing fee, not a warranty related oil standard like european or HTO-01 (which do not require a fee of any kind).

So... I don't blame GM for what you call "restrictions" either. But plenty of other companies manage to have "restrictions" that don't cost anything.


Edited by bepperb (11/25/13 02:51 PM)
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#3197823 - 11/25/13 02:55 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: stchman]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 24990
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: stchman
I have noticed that a LOT of folks here on this forum seem to take the dexos thing personally.

They complain that dexos is GM strong arming the oil companies into paying them these obscene fees and that the price for a quart of oil will go way up. As a consumer I see no price difference between dexos oils and non-dexos oils. If Valvoline and Amsoil are saving such a boatlod of cash by not paying GM's exorbitant fees, then their oils should be far less expensive. This does not appear to be the case.

Is it because some of the oil religions are being offended? I think so.

I look at it this way, GM is giving a 5 year 100K mile warranty on the drivetrain, they want to make sure people are using quality oil and doing their maintenance when they are supposed to. Trust me, working for 6+ years in the quick lube industry, I have seen more than my share of people that only maintain their car when something goes out. You would shudder at the people that only change the oil when the oil light comes on???!!!!

I don't blame GM for putting restrictions, I would do it as well.


It isn't the restrictions or performance requirements of the oil, the Euro marques have been using those types requirements for decades. It is the fee that GM charges for the Dexos licensing that is the issue, as they cop a profit on every quart of oil sold, it is essentially highway robbery.

Put another way: To get LL-01, MB229.xx....etc you pay a fee for the testing and approval. Done. BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Audi....etc put you on their approved lubricant list and unless you change your formula significantly and need to recertify, that cost is done with.

With Dexos, GM charges you a royalty on every litre/quart sold in order for it to carry the DEXOS approval/logo. This makes it an ongoing source of profit for them. They are extracting money from the oil companies, and by extension, the consumer, for every litre of oil sold. Even if that oil is being used in a non-DEXOS application, you are paying for that approval.

GM has had performance requirements in the past for oils. The "Corvette spec", GM4718M, for example, was a stringent performance requirement and had no royalty fees associated with it. Ford has the same thing currently with their WSS-xxxx approvals. DEXOS isn't about performance, it is about profit. THAT is why people, and many of the oil companies, have taken issue with it.

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#3197850 - 11/25/13 03:18 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: stchman]
stchman Offline


Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 498
Loc: St. Louis, MO
I thought GM went to a flat dexos licensing fee instead of the royalty fee per gallon.
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#3197855 - 11/25/13 03:19 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: stchman]
cp3 Offline


Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2524
Loc: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Please forgive me for not shedding a tear for the oil companies costs!

It would be interesting to see if the reaction would be the same if another manufacturer did the same thing. Or what the reaction was like when the API fee schedule was introduced.

7 cents a gallon isn't exactly exorbitant considering the up here you are looking at almost $50 a gallon for regular priced synthetic. It would be interesting to see the fee schedule and how it compares with the API's.
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#3197859 - 11/25/13 03:21 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: stchman]
cp3 Offline


Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2524
Loc: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: stchman
I thought GM went to a flat dexos licensing fee instead of the royalty fee per gallon.


There was a change to the structure but I don't recall what it was. I believe it was posted but seems to be consistently forgotten here and the original plan still quoted.
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#3197863 - 11/25/13 03:26 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: stchman]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 23565
Loc: Illinoistan
Originally Posted By: stchman
I thought GM went to a flat dexos licensing fee instead of the royalty fee per gallon.

GM did make some changes to the licensing fees in a way they calculate how many gallons of oil each oil mfg can potentially sell, but there is still a per gallon fee.

The whole calculation of potential sales for each mfg seems a bit convoluted to me...

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001713657.cfm

Quote:
According to industry sources familiar with Dexos, GM will calculate the flat fee by using the total passenger car motor oil market in gallons, GM’s market share percentage and the oil marketer’s market share percentage. GM uses those three numbers to calculate the potential number of gallons of an oil marketers’ PCMO – everything, not just Dexos – that could end up in GM vehicles. The automaker does this individually for each region, sources indicate, though an oil marketer has to buy a global license.

GM then charges a per-gallon fee on the resulting number, sources said.

Sources suggested GM considers the fee a “flat” one in that GM looks at market shares today, and then calculates what an oil marketer’s fee will be over the next four years.


If the above is correct, then it sounds like it doesn't really matter how many products an oil mfg has in their lineup carrying the Dexos logo.
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#3197871 - 11/25/13 03:34 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: stchman]
LargeCarManX2 Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 2278
Loc: Up here in the NorthWest


I am sorry, we can't talk about religions....

quote: Is it because some of the oil religions are being offended? I think so quote:

No, we just don't like giving money to Government Motors...whoops...can't take politics...ummm

Ok, let's try this again....ok, if a independent company wants to pay the fees...that's fine, if one does not i.e. Amsoil etc etc ..that's fine too!
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#3197875 - 11/25/13 03:41 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: LargeCarManX2]
stchman Offline


Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 498
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Originally Posted By: LargeCarManX2


I am sorry, we can't talk about religions....

quote: Is it because some of the oil religions are being offended? I think so quote:

No, we just don't like giving money to Government Motors...whoops...can't take politics...ummm

Ok, let's try this again....ok, if a independent company wants to pay the fees...that's fine, if one does not i.e. Amsoil etc etc ..that's fine too!


I was speaking about the people that say "If I can't use Amsoil, I won't drive a car anymore".

I'm quite sure that if someone uses Amsoil fo Valvoline SynPower, the engine will be fine, I just have never understood the almost religious fanatical devotion to a certain brand of oil.

Ad far as the bailout thing, I was not not that happy that the US taxpayers had to help GM, but that is pocket change compared to the amount of money the taxpayers give to the welfare and entitlements programs each year.
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#3197884 - 11/25/13 03:47 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: cp3]
bepperb Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 4541
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Originally Posted By: cp3
It would be interesting to see if the reaction would be the same if another manufacturer did the same thing


That's everything you need to know right there... no other manufacturer does the same thing. And thank god. Imagine if Toyota wanted a nickel, and Chrylser wanted a dime, and Ford thought 8 cents was what they deserved... and when everyone was done that 5 quart jug of oil you bought was a dollar more.

Yep, if another manufacturer did the same thing it wouldn't be OK... so why is it ok if just one does it?

And for those interested, the API certification is less than 10% the dexos license fee and more or less universally accepted in North America, so that can't really be used as an excuse.
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#3197887 - 11/25/13 03:48 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: stchman]
bigjl Online   content


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 1575
Loc: London, England
My view is that some people think dino oil is the best oil for all vehicles and don't like the idea of Dexos.
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#3197901 - 11/25/13 04:00 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: stchman]
zloveraz Offline


Registered: 04/07/10
Posts: 845
Loc: Plano, TX
Originally Posted By: stchman
I thought GM went to a flat dexos licensing fee instead of the royalty fee per gallon.


LOL yeah over 3 years ago....
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#3197918 - 11/25/13 04:30 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: stchman]
JavierG Offline


Registered: 06/11/11
Posts: 1085
Loc: Fresno, CA
Originally Posted By: stchman
I have noticed that a LOT of folks here on this forum seem to take the dexos thing personally.

I look at it this way, GM is giving a 5 year 100K mile warranty on the drivetrain, they want to make sure people are using quality oil and doing their maintenance when they are supposed to.

But auto manufacturers like Hyundai already offer a 100k mile powertrain warranty. And they just ask that you use the correct weight and viscosity oil.
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