Honda's reason for multiple oil changes 1 filter

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Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd

If we reduce waste (especially when the product is still serviceable), we save landfill space and we save energy and tax dollars that would otherwise be used to crush good oil filters. There's nothing silly in that.


+1,000,000

It's one thing to change the filter if it is a requirement to maintain the warranty coverage, it's another thing to change it as a "feel good" or using the "cheap insurance" argument.

What amazes me even on this board is how so many BITOGers are replacing premium filters after a 5k run
crazy2.gif


If BITOGers do not believe a product can run for 15k miles, as stated on the packaging, why would they believe that a more expensive filter is better than an el cheapo PC or OCOD?
 
Originally Posted By: Colt
I've had Honda vehicles over the years and have never seen or heard of a dealer service not changing the filter with an oil change.


How would the average consumer know?

How could you know, only going to one or two local dealers?

Honda *does* know, and they seem to know that filter changes are skipped. They know which dealers do it, and there must be enough that they can't take action.

I'm reminded of a time when I wanted to buy HNBR o-rings for a BMW. It was July, and none of the local dealers had them. Not just the special size I asked about first, they didn't have any size. I finally found a dealer that thought they had them. When I showed up, the parts guy pulled them from a generic small kit, the assortment you get at a auto parts store.

At first I was a little miffed at paying BMW prices for a generic part. Then I realized the implication. Even in late July in Washington D.C. (unbearably hot and humid), when the dealers should be well stocked, they didn't have o-rings. Essentially none of them, and the one that did obviously wasn't using them. The service guys weren't actually replacing o-rings as the manual specified. They just counted on the existing ones still sealing. It didn't matter what you paid, the standard for service was "if customer can't tell...".
 
Originally Posted By: mene
I would argue that what makes you sure that the new filter is good and not defective while the one installed you already know is good and is perfectly capable of lasting another OCI. Just a though.


what do you know? you Only have 461k miles on a Chrysler minivan
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Originally Posted By: mene
I would argue that what makes you sure that the new filter is good and not defective while the one installed you already know is good and is perfectly capable of lasting another OCI. Just a though.


There is no way to know the filter on the car is good until you cut it open or the engine blows up. Same can be said about the new filter, unless there is something majorly wrong like the whole guts are loose and detected before installing the filter.

With a spin-on, it's kind of a gamble either way.
 
Originally Posted By: Eosyn
Originally Posted By: tig1
For the extra cost(maybe 2 cents or less per day at 10K OCIs)I won't put 4 qts of new oil mixed with 1/4 to 1/2 of old oil. Honda should know better than this silly argument.


+1


-1

Can someone explain to me the issue that the "old" oil is going to cause? Most people don't even run the "old" oil to half of its useful service life anyway, and "old" old generally lubricates better than "new" oil anyway? Can anyone actually articulate a valid reason as to why leaving 1/2 a quart of oil in the engine is actually a bad thing (leaving "feelings" out of it for second).
 
Originally Posted By: Colt
I've had Honda vehicles over the years and have never seen or heard of a dealer service not changing the filter with an oil change.
I change the filter every change.


I know a OIL CHANGE outlet that dont change the filter.... Jiffy LUBE...

They make sure not to change the oil filter even if you pay for it.

LOL.

Sorry just a joke...
 
Thanks for posting threeputt.

Makes sense too. Doesn't the OEM filter use a lower media-efficiency? By the end of the first OCI, it's efficiency is probably up there with a new, aftermarket filter, eh?
 
I run multiple oil changes with a single filter but I only use oversized or high capacity, wire mesh backed media. Although I know that non wire mesh backed media can also be run multiple OCI I feel better knowing the media is supported.

It is probably less risk to change your oil filter every oil change, however I believe one can use a filter for multiple oil changes as long as certain parameters are taken into account.
 
Honda FCI is based on their tests, most Honda vehicles FCI is on second oil change except S2000 (and may be few others), S2000 FCI is at every oil change.
 
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Eosyn
Originally Posted By: tig1
For the extra cost(maybe 2 cents or less per day at 10K OCIs)I won't put 4 qts of new oil mixed with 1/4 to 1/2 of old oil. Honda should know better than this silly argument.


+1


-1

Can someone explain to me the issue that the "old" oil is going to cause? Most people don't even run the "old" oil to half of its useful service life anyway, and "old" old generally lubricates better than "new" oil anyway? Can anyone actually articulate a valid reason as to why leaving 1/2 a quart of oil in the engine is actually a bad thing (leaving "feelings" out of it for second).


Truth be told new oil needs combustion gasses and heat to break in before it lubricates optimally.
Because of all the additives to combat acid and whatnot engine oil needs these contaminants and heat in order for the oil to begin the chemical reactions that create the tribo-chemical anti-wear layers and enable the friction modifiers to work as desired.
As far as Honda and their filter recommendations it makes absolute sense to me.
Unless the engine is hopelessly neglected with deposits or sludge which can clog a filter,or use some total carp like RESTORE which makes the oil filter to into by-pass then any oil filter should be able to run a 10000 mile interval.
Think about it. A well cared for engine will have little to no deposits to speak of,so the filter is truly only filtering out the agglomerated particles that are created when combustion gasses are absorbed by the oil,and where hot spots sizzle the oil and then are dissolved then filtered out by the oil filter.
So a well maintained engine really won't clog a filter at all. Air filtration is the biggest contributor.
A well maintained engine will never plug up even the most budget filter in 5000kms So changing the filter anytime under 10000kms is a waste,period.
For example. If everyone ran a 10000km filter change interval just consider how many millions of filters are not going into the landfill.
You guys who are so proud about your short intervals and 1 filter,and even brag about it in your sig shows just how much you care about the environment and the next generation who will have to clean up the mess.
Its like knowing your carbon footprint and your contribution to polluting the earth and saying you don't care,and even though the filter can be ran for longer you ignore that fact and toss it anyways. It says alot about you as a person.
On a known dirty engine of course more frequent filter changes are required however if you know your engines clean,and you throw out your filter before 10000kms anyways you tell me more about yourself than words ever could.
Anyways unless I'm doing some kind of flush or engine clean out my oil may get changed 3 times before I change the filter.
Once I use up my stock of filters I will be buying the fram ultra and using them exclusively. They claim 15000 miles which means it can do 20000 miles in a clean engine.
I'm glad Honda is taking this approach. They are trying to dispel old myths that narrow minded people refuse to let go of.
The environment isn't getting any cleaner. If every person who maintains a vehicle used an oil filter to its maximum ability then even I can save for example 50 filters,which didn't tax resources to make,or recycle and didn't potentially pollute groundwater as the oil leeches into the landfill ground.
Even with evidence presented that leads to the conclusion a filter is not finished at 5000kms they ignore it,for the peace of mind that their engine will stay in tip top condition,and not looking at tomorrow's version of humanity trying to find Unpolluted potable water.
Today's selfishness will lead to not having it tomorrow.
I used to think that Europeans were crazy. Can't wash your car in your driveway. Crazy long oil drains however they are trying to conserve resources and not pollute them. Its much tougher to clean polluted water than to just not pollute it in the first place.
We North Americans,well not all but most seem to take a reactive approach and try to fix a problem when it arises,instead of taking steps to insure the problem never arises in the first place.
Peace of mind.........who's mind
 
Nice thoughtful post, Clevy.

I'll add this ...

Now, all of this is predicated on a HEALTHY piece of equipment; known trouble-prone engines and total neglect negate this concept. Any product has a viable lifecycle, and seriously over-running that term is not a concept I'm discussing, nor advocate.

We used to be married to the 3mo/3k-mi idea, but most folks can see their way past that. "Normal" for most new vehicle is 7.5k miles and often more with an IOLM.

As already mentioned, equipment runs MUCH cleaner than it used to; there just are not many contaminants in today's engines.

Filter lifecycle really cannot be measured by the odometer; it's no different than oil. A filter has no idea how lont it's been in service. The whole concept of one FCI every other OCI would not accuratly predict a lifespan. What if the OCI was 3k miles? Are we to assume the filter is spent by 6k miles? Consider how that would contrast to a person that did his OCI every 7.5k miles; the filter would easily go 15k miles! So, I'm to conclude that the first filter is used up at 6k miles, but the second filter is OK for 2.5x that duration? How can we say that two filters, of identical construction, can have such different lifespans?

So many folks want to OCI and FCI because they perceive it to be "better" for their equipment. And yet, here in the filter forum, we often hear about "failed" filters (often times proof is lacking, but that does not stop the rumor mill in the least). So, if you FCI often, you actually INCREASE the likelihood of inducing filter failure by changing to an unknown entity. Every "new" filter is a "new" opportunity for failure, whereas a filter that has otherwise performed adequately is a proven entity.

Here's the thing about ALL of this OCI and FCI stuff ...
OEMs predicate their recommendations on a two things:
1) covering their booty for warranty costs (an inferred statement of reliablility)
2) other stuff a distant second (environmental friendliness, customer concerns, etc)
As long as condition 1 is covered, then they can concentrate on condition 2. But they will NEVER focus on condition 2, before condition 1 is assured put to bed. No company will stay in business long by worrying about your landfill, if they are risking engine failure costs. You see, if you are actually risking high warranty costs, that means you've engineered and/or manufactured a product that is not reliable. Where is the value in doing such, just to clean a landfill? It does not make sense, UNLESS, you have assured a low warranty risk, and can therefore ALSO reduce waste.


I admire Honda (and others like Mitsubishi) for the 2x FCI. Everything I've ever seen in a HEALTHY piece of equipment says it's doable, and very safe. Why do they reccommend such practice? Because it's safe and conscionable, in that order.


If you have a filter that is not leaking, filtering well, and giving no problems, why introduce the risk (admittedly however remote) of a potential failure of the unknown, when the known is performing properly? While many see an upside to a "new" fitler, I don't see it as such. At best, it's a wash, and probably not even that in reality.

Let's put it in a pro/con perspective ...

FCI with every OCI:
pro - "new" filter ... the anal-retentive BITOGer sleeps well
con - "new" filter increases risk of new individual failure, plus decreases filtration efficiency of lube system, plus increases maintenance costs, plus increases disposal concerns

FCI every other OCI:
pro - "used" filter is a known positive operator because if it's working right then it's likely to continue to work right; saves operating costs; reduces disposal concerns; increases system filter efficiency
con - makes anal-retentive BITOGers lose sleep.

The PROOF (real data and analytical processing) shows filter extension is very viable, despite what your gut tells you. This is the undeniable concern that most folks think "new" is always "better", regardless of the truth of factual basis.

This runs akin conceptually to the frequent OCI mentality. Folks OCI often because they believe it's "better", although it's proven that wear rates go up with this practice. And the alternative of longer OCIs is proven to IMPROVE wear rates. Same goes for filters; they filter more efficiently when used for longer periods, and changing them often does not increase any performance factor at all. Doing these things frequently is admittedly low risk, but there is risk, none-the-less. The alternative is to leave them alone for a safe period of time, and glean the savings while reducing disposal issues. Lubes get better with age, so do filters. Changing them frequently only increases risk of adding in a "new" failure point. To be sure, you could use any product too long, but I don't see that as a big risk to any wrench-happy BITOGers. In healthy modern equipment, OCI and FCIs could easily go 15k miles. The risk isn't to the equipment; that's proven. The risk exists in AR BITOG sanity.


In short, the frequent O/FCI may help one sleep better, but they are proven to be counter-productive in terms of performance, efficiency, and savings. The risk they pose, however remote, does exist, and there is no real, tanigible reward. And no amount of "yabuts" is going to change those facts.
 
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Excellent points by you and Clevy. As I've mentioned before, too, there obviously is more than one reason why filters have shrunk over the years. It's not just because it's cheaper for the manufacturer. It's cheaper and still does the job. And, as I've wondered before, I wonder again - how much filter media did I waste over the years on the taxis with the large filters they used (i.e. small block Chevs, 302s) over even the 10,000 km OCIs on LPG. Especially with the Chevs at the time, with bypass in the block and no ADBV and therefore much less chance of a mechanical failure, I bet I could have gone longer.
 
Since I have been doing 10K OCIs for the last 35 years, look at all the filters and oil I have saved while the rest of you have been changing every 3-5k. To double up on filter changes now is like closing the barn doors after the horse escaped. No matter what you guys do now, you can never catch up to me on oil and filter change conservation. I ain't gonna use a filter twice. 10K is enough for my engines.
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
Since I have been doing 10K OCIs for the last 35 years, look at all the filters and oil I have saved while the rest of you have been changing every 3-5k. To double up on filter changes now is like closing the barn doors after the horse escaped. No matter what you guys do now, you can never catch up to me on oil and filter change conservation. I ain't gonna use a filter twice. 10K is enough for my engines.


You have a good point but it's unique to you mostly. Are we really taking about 20K FCIs here? Maybe 15K, huh? I doubt the Honda OCIs are more than 7.5K and two 5K runs on one fitler would be a breeze and essentially the same as you are doing. I believe 20K is possible for a premium filter but I certainly don't deny that a 10K OCI/FCI is getting your money's worth.

FYI, 10K OCI/FCI is what I do with my Honda. For me that's 18 months to two years.
 
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: tig1
Since I have been doing 10K OCIs for the last 35 years, look at all the filters and oil I have saved while the rest of you have been changing every 3-5k. To double up on filter changes now is like closing the barn doors after the horse escaped. No matter what you guys do now, you can never catch up to me on oil and filter change conservation. I ain't gonna use a filter twice. 10K is enough for my engines.


You have a good point but it's unique to you mostly. Are we really taking about 20K FCIs here? Maybe 15K, huh? I doubt the Honda OCIs are more than 7.5K and two 5K runs on one fitler would be a breeze and essentially the same as you are doing. I believe 20K is possible for a premium filter but I certainly don't deny that a 10K OCI/FCI is getting your money's worth.

FYI, 10K OCI/FCI is what I do with my Honda. For me that's 18 months to two years.

JA, I don't think I have ever noticed what OCIs, filters, and oil you are using in your F150. Do you follow the same regimen each OCI?
 
The F150 is at the end of a 15K OCI on conventional MC Super Duty HDEO 10W30 (the viscosity was an experiment). The primary filter is a Puro P1 and it's been on there for 15K miles. 5K into the OCI/FCI, I installed a 3um Racor ABS system so the upcoming UOA will be interesting. I have (optical and pore) PC and UOA from 5K, 10K and the last will be at a bit over 15K.

I will be going back to 5W20. At first that will be some SM Castrol GTX (leftover old stock) with which I will do a bunch of filter DP tests according to the filters I have in stock. I will run that oil out to at least 10-15K if I can. The last filter I install will be an Ultra... I got a bunch on sale. After that... I don't know which oil I will use. Possibly Mobil 5000, but likely a high quality conventional. I will run 15K intervals or more... depending on what the UOA shows me. The bypass will stay on.
 
Ah yes - the dP experiment. Really looking forward to the data for those filters I sent! I highly suspect we'll see no practical difference between any of them, but only time will tell if I'm right or not.
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy

You guys who are so proud about your short intervals and 1 filter,and even brag about it in your sig shows just how much you care about the environment and the next generation who will have to clean up the mess.
Its like knowing your carbon footprint and your contribution to polluting the earth and saying you don't care,and even though the filter can be ran for longer you ignore that fact and toss it anyways. It says alot about you as a person.


OK, sell all your toys and ride a bike and drive a Geo Metro in the foul weather. Make sure it is the 5 speed for minimum impact on Gaia, praise be.
 
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