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#3039532 - 06/20/13 12:28 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: badtlc]
shovel Offline


Registered: 07/30/12
Posts: 19
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: badtlc

I agree. Human health is overrated.


Right, because one study from Stanford indicates that one aspect of ethanol combustion (CO2 emissions) is less favorable than gasoline, completely ignoring every other aspect of production and combustion.

Another source of CO2 emissions is breathing, so considering I happen to prefer a vegetable/fruit diet (not promoting farmed animals exhaling CO2) and don't have children (not promoting additional humans breathing or necessitating travel/consumption) and live close enough to work that I bike all winter long (for fitness) and don't have one of those ridiculous remote starters on my car (idle for half an hour every day? brilliant!) ... your atmosphere is safe with me. I do eat a lot of bean tacos though, so methane emissions could negate all the harm reduction I do...

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#3047721 - 06/27/13 09:17 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 882
Loc: Kellogg, IA
I am always amazed at the myths that continue to get thrown around. Especially the taking food away for making as fuel. That is the biggest line of garbage that has been foisted on the public.

There is no food loss by using corn to produce ethanol! NONE. The only thing that is used from the corn is the starches to produce the sugars which is fermented to alcohol. What is left is very high quality, in demand, distillers grain. It is dried and fed to livestock primarily. It is a high lysine product that also helps prevent intestinal colitis in feed animals. The starches that are used to produce the ethanol would just vacate thru the average cow and end up mostly as stuff you step in when you walk thru a feed lot. I haul several loads of this stuff a month to feed operations. I am pulling one of those loads right now. It is in a more refined state what I have. It is called Biolys, and in 50 lb bags for adding to feed mixtures done at feed mills.

Add to this, that over 80%, well over 80% of the corn grown in this country goes for livestock (cattle, hogs, turkeys, chickens) feed in some form or another. And the Dried Distiller's Grain mentioned above? Well, the Vietnamese, for one, have been negotiating pretty good deals to buy up a lot of it to be shipped to Vietnam for their livestock production. Wow. If we had done this earlier, I would not have had to stump around in the mud over there and have folks take pot shots at me! We could have sold them the DDG!

As for whether ethanol is worse or better after burning, as it affects the atmosphere, I am not up on that one. But the food to fuel thing is just a load of the same stuff that comes out of the south end of a north bound steer.

As a side note on the fuel mileage, true, with the present engine builds we have, you will take approximately a 20-25% hit on fuel mileage with E85. But, if the engines were designed to run on E85 alone, this would not be the case. As multifuel engines, they have to keep things tolerable for regular gasoline. With using only an E85 product, they could bump the compression ratios up considerably and make some other modifications, and the engines would give exceptional performance and get considerably better mpg with E85 than they presently do. So, before one attacks E85 as the being a rotten fuel for mpg, factor in the engine design also. Using primarily ethanol, we could bump compression ratios to levels only experienced in diesel engines now. You do that with a multifuel engine, and you will not like the results. But on a diet of ethanol, it would be a real pleasure to drive. I am presently looking into how a Chevy small block could be reworked to be an E85 only engine and make this all work. I have a flex fuel 5.3L now, but would love to see how this same engine, rebuilt to higher standards for ethanol, would perform.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3047965 - 06/28/13 05:47 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14218
Loc: Sunny Florida
All the above info brought to you by the Farm Bureau of course.

They have no agenda, they're simply here to do what's right!

C'mon, man, not everyone drinks that corn liquor here...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3048825 - 06/28/13 08:50 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 796
Loc: Florida
If corn ethanol is so great why did so much money get spent on lobbying to get laws passed to REQUIRE it's use? Products that make sense stand on their own and don't need .gov holding guns to the consumers heads.
_________________________
2013 F150 5.0, PU 10w-30, FL500s
2010 Camry 2.5, PP 5w-30, Wix 57047

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#3049996 - 06/30/13 06:17 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Cujet Online   content


Registered: 02/15/03
Posts: 4016
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
My "per mile" cost is roughly the same on E-85.

However, my F150 really performs better on E-85. Ford says it gains 20HP and 60lb/ft torque. I believe it. The low end torque is significantly better.

Smells like a alcohol stove, when first started.

I use it when I can, it's cheap HP in my case.
_________________________
Turbo's rule.

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#3051418 - 07/01/13 11:43 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: shovel]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3541
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: shovel
Originally Posted By: badtlc

I agree. Human health is overrated.


Right, because one study from Stanford indicates that one aspect of ethanol combustion (CO2 emissions) is less favorable than gasoline, completely ignoring every other aspect of production and combustion.

Another source of CO2 emissions is breathing, so considering I happen to prefer a vegetable/fruit diet (not promoting farmed animals exhaling CO2) and don't have children (not promoting additional humans breathing or necessitating travel/consumption) and live close enough to work that I bike all winter long (for fitness) and don't have one of those ridiculous remote starters on my car (idle for half an hour every day? brilliant!) ... your atmosphere is safe with me. I do eat a lot of bean tacos though, so methane emissions could negate all the harm reduction I do...


Monitoring of Brazil's air quality shows the same.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

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#3056878 - 07/06/13 11:29 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: hatt]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 882
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: hatt
If corn ethanol is so great why did so much money get spent on lobbying to get laws passed to REQUIRE it's use? Products that make sense stand on their own and don't need .gov holding guns to the consumers heads.


Don't confuse lobbying for it's use as coming from the agriculture community with the agenda the greenies and EPA has going. You have to remember, that since the 70's there has been a push for this kind of stuff primarily because of smog issues in places like Southern Cal, the Colorado front range, and most major cities east of the Mississippi river. To try and conform to EPA guidelines, they mandated MTBE or some such thing as an oxygenate to gasoline. Once they found out that it was a ecological problem, then the move to ethanol being mandated across the nation came into play. All the major cities and heavy populated areas with higher pollution issues, to meet EPA guidelines, have mandated ethanol blends.

Your outrage is placed on the wrong folks. Sure, the ag community wanted some advantages to get things off the ground. And most of the help was in the form of tax credits more than direct subsidies. Tax credits are NOT money transfers. They are only credits for tax purposes. Just like individuals getting tax credits for dependents, mortgage interest, etc. Since the EPA has done all the moving forward on ethanol and biodiesel, there really is no need for any kind of ag subsidies (which have been eliminated for almost 2 years now) or preferential treatment in the tax code. Some tax credits remain, but they are along the line of regular business tax credits that the majority of business' take advantage of in the tax code.

Sometime it is wise to actually study the issue a little before slinging out comments based on false assumptions. I have watched all of this happen so it is a little easier for me to understand it. Those that are just coming to the party seem to have all the knee jerk reactions based on false assumptions.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3110362 - 08/30/13 06:56 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: 95busa]
crinkles Offline


Registered: 05/28/07
Posts: 5463
Loc: australia
Originally Posted By: 95busa
Would you rather pay a farmer or a haji? Easy question for this guy.


+ for me.
_________________________
Pennzoil SUV 5w-30

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#3183175 - 11/09/13 05:45 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Miller88]
Archangel Offline


Registered: 10/28/10
Posts: 3
Loc: Illinois USA
The thing with Gas or E85, is that are different fuels and to run best need different engine set ups.
If an engine runs a 9:1 compression ratio using straight gasoline, that same engine could probably go with 11:1 or even 12:1 on E85.
Higher compression makes for a more efficient engine until it starts to knock, and the E85 will handle much more compression.

Bump up the compression and the E85 will get much better mileage.
You just can't go back to Gasoline without either alcohol, or water injection as an antiknock.

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#3184939 - 11/11/13 04:41 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: SteveSRT8]
jhellwig Offline


Registered: 07/01/13
Posts: 368
Loc: Ottumwa, Iowa
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
All the above info brought to you by the Farm Bureau of course.

They have no agenda, they're simply here to do what's right!

C'mon, man, not everyone drinks that corn liquor here...


This is so true simply because the oil industry has our well being as it top priority.
_________________________
2013 Chevy Traverse lt 3.6l direct inection
2011 Chevy Silverado lt 1500 z71 crew5.3l
1983 Chevy K5 350
2007 Honda Rincon
1991 John Deere 318

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#3185345 - 11/11/13 11:26 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Jocephus]
FutureDoc Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 534
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Jocephus
I drive the same route 3 times per week on highway...146 miles round trip. I Set the cruise control when I hit I-40 so for probably 130 miles i'm on the cruise control.

My Escalade with 6.2L V8
On 100% gas I get 18.4 mpg
On 10% ethanol I get 15.7 mpg
On E85 I get 13.2 mpg

I only run 100% gas now after doing the test for a month...even wrote my congressman a letter with the full supportive documentation. Heard nothing back.

I still don't understand the governments thinking of how getting less gas mileage saves fuel.


Hummm, no.

Ethanol has about 34% less energy per unit of volume. That being said, an E10 mix should only net about a 3.7%(+/- a small amount) drop in economy... not a 14.6% drop that you listed. So if your 100% Gas fuel economy is that actual economy of the vehicle, then you should expect you MPG to drop to 17.96mph... less than 0.5mpg. Even an full E85 you should get 14.6.

The point of adding ethanol was not to "increase MPG" but rather as a oxygenator to decrease carbon monoxide emissions in a post MTBE era as MTBE was a MAJOR source of groundwater pollution. I already think there is something in the water in same places and adding more MTBE would not be a good thing. The other big reason for ethanol is that is reduces the need for FOREIGN oil. I rather give money to switchgrass/algae farmers (less to corn farmers) than countries in "less stable" areas.

Also, if you complain about mileage, drive a more economical vehicle. Even the old V8 DeVilles could get upper 20/30+mpg highway.
_________________________
'01 MR2 Spyder, 55K+, M1 AFE 0w30 & Toyota Filter
'99 Subaru Legacy Outback, 205K+, QS HM/T5 Blend & Wix
'14 Subaru Outback, factory fill 0w20

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#3226553 - 12/24/13 03:09 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Archangel]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 882
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: Archangel
The thing with Gas or E85, is that are different fuels and to run best need different engine set ups.
If an engine runs a 9:1 compression ratio using straight gasoline, that same engine could probably go with 11:1 or even 12:1 on E85.
Higher compression makes for a more efficient engine until it starts to knock, and the E85 will handle much more compression.

Bump up the compression and the E85 will get much better mileage.
You just can't go back to Gasoline without either alcohol, or water injection as an antiknock.


That is what I want the OEM's to give us an option for. A E85 "only" engine that has a higher compression ratio and tuned for E85 use only. That would be a killer engine I would have no problem opening my wallet for. I will leave things the way they are in my pickup, but I know the day will come where I will have an engine built for E85 only use.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3227821 - 12/25/13 09:43 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: SteveSRT8]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 882
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
All the above info brought to you by the Farm Bureau of course.

They have no agenda, they're simply here to do what's right!

C'mon, man, not everyone drinks that corn liquor here...


Prove the statements wrong. You provide evidence of ethanol subsidies existing today. You provide the numbers of how the annual U.S. corn production is divided up. Prove that DDG is not a viable product from ethanol production that isn't in demand world wide due to it's benefits as a high protein feed supplement that is more easily digestible by livestock and can help prevent intestinal colitis in livestock.

I counter that you have bought into an agenda that fits your world view, and the facts will not sway you. While the Farm Bureau is not as pure as the wind driven snow, those on the other side of the fence are not saints that have everyone's interest at heart either.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3227977 - 12/26/13 05:11 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14218
Loc: Sunny Florida
6 Months later...OK then. You like aldehydes, I don't. We buy 4k a month in fuel here, so we have a VERY big issue with fuels, taxes, production, etc.

Every argument here also ignores the HUGE CAFE credits given for gas hog FFV's from the major mfgrs. Do you corn liquor guys just ignore those? Are they free? Their unreal cost is never included because that would skew the numbers the wrong way. So just ignore those then.

There's more, but I can't change your mind with facts, and you could easily spend 30 minutes and look at BOTH sides of the issue yourself. No one pays attention to the specifics when the BIG MONEY is being divvied up! Details, Details.

Here's a little article that is as glossy as they come, from a publication that IMO promotes the stuff:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2011/01/the-great-ethanol-debate/index.htm


Edited by SteveSRT8 (12/26/13 05:13 AM)
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3228433 - 12/26/13 03:49 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: SteveSRT8]
volk06 Offline


Registered: 10/04/10
Posts: 4237
Loc: .
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
6 Months later...OK then. You like aldehydes, I don't. We buy 4k a month in fuel here, so we have a VERY big issue with fuels, taxes, production, etc.

Every argument here also ignores the HUGE CAFE credits given for gas hog FFV's from the major mfgrs. Do you corn liquor guys just ignore those? Are they free? Their unreal cost is never included because that would skew the numbers the wrong way. So just ignore those then.

There's more, but I can't change your mind with facts, and you could easily spend 30 minutes and look at BOTH sides of the issue yourself. No one pays attention to the specifics when the BIG MONEY is being divvied up! Details, Details.

Here's a little article that is as glossy as they come, from a publication that IMO promotes the stuff:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2011/01/the-great-ethanol-debate/index.htm


I'm not trying to be an [censored] here but you still did not provide any facts or data to prove tired_trucker wrong, just side stepped his questions.

Theres so many arguments out there that its hard for people to get the real truth. I've looked at both sides, its big oil companies vs ethanol and that's what it really boils down to. Whoever has the most money to lobby, gets what they want... there's no denying that. Big oil still gets millions if not billions of tax breaks/subsidies every year. No matter what we burn in our engines, gasoline, diesel, or ethanol... they're all "bad" but some worse than others.

Once again I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just wanting more information and another view point on it.

We all know how unreliable consumer reports is too, not to mention a lot of that data is out of date from 3 years ago.

Ethanol from corn is not the final answer to eliminating gasoline but is a stepping stone in the advancement of renewable fuels. Algae ethanol and cellulosic ethanol, the next generation ethanol production, looks very promising. There's also reseach into converting form ethanol to isobutanol, which takes less to produce and has a higher energy content than ethanol.

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