Transmission Failure After Valvoline MaxLife

[Hokiefyd]

Oil Changer: I'm sorry to hear of your mis-fortune. Transmission replacement is a hard pill to swallow regardless of who you are or your station in life.

I am curious, though, how you collected the sample that you sent to Valvoline. They said that there was zinc in the fluid; this does surprise me. I've done what I could consider an above-average amount of research on various ATFs and the only fluid of which I'm aware that uses zinc is Honda brand ATF. Both the Honda Z1 and DW-1 contain significant concentrations (for ATFs) of zinc...nearly 300 ppm.

Indeed, Valvoline's MaxLife ATF, like every Dexron III type ATF I've seen, contains no zinc. I am curious about the source of the zinc in your sample. Did you collect the sample from the transmission pan, or maybe from your engine oil drain pan? I'm wondering if there was some cross-contamination going on there.

 

[INDYMAC]

This is sad. My initial suspicions and anger would be towards the fluid contributing to the failure. But I would eventually lean towards the filter/O-ring not fitting or working properly. And last but not least, internal part failure. I guess we'll have to wait for the autopsy though.

 

[Oil Changer]

The sample was poured into the bottles by the dealership mechanic who did the R and R from the pan as I watched. I made it very, very clear how important the sample was to me. They were very understanding and helpful.

I used bottles from my Blackstone kit since I had not received the kit from Valvoline yet. I had him fill the sample bottle and the shipping container as I did not know at the time how big the bottle from Valvoline would be.

 

[meep]

To the OP--- lots of good comments in this thread. I too feel like you did a good job and made good choices. I may have chosen to flush instead of multiple changes, or I could have done it your way, or even just one drain fill for now and the rest later.... everyone has their "favorite" and FWIW they all have their place--- your choices were fine. Even your choice of oil.

I have had ML screw up a honda AT, to the chagrin of many ML followers... but the honda AT is a bit different from a Dexron unit.

So--- I think your methodology was sound, as was your fluid choice. ATs do fail... and I'm in the camp thinking that the problem was already in its early stages, and if anything, you just hurried it along. Recent model Tahoes, rated for 7K+ lbs towing, are often seen failing at 150k with only light duty use. The GM 5.7L engine when through a rash of cam failures in the mid 2000's... even the Chevy trucks have a normal chance of breaking down, like every other mfr. Don't beat yourself up.

I did a full rehab of a clean but neglected town and country in 2011. Bought it and put it up on blocks for 3 months, working on it weekly. Included was a line flush, new filter, and magnefine filter. 1 year later (4000 miles, it's the weekend car), the solenoid pack failed. I suspect the same-- I helped it along. I used Castrol ATF +4, a fluid I've had good luck with.

So don't feel too bad about you or the vehicle-- it happens. You did good for trying to care for it.

M

 

[KrisZ]

I also don't think the fluid is to blame.
But something was not clear to me, was the filter changed every time the pan was dropped or was it only changed at the last pan drop?
These are the only two variables that we know of, so I think it would help knowing exactly what OP did.

In my Mazda I have never touched the pan or the filter. Apparently it's not much of a filter either, but a screen incased in a plastic shell. I did a fairly early (at about 20k miles) full ATF exchange by doing four drain and fills. Then I did two or three (can't remember exactly) single drains before the car hit 60k miles. At 60k miles I did a cooler line full ATF exchange, again the pan was never touched.
I'm at over 100k miles right now and I plan to perform another cooler line flush at about 120k miles, as the current fluid is doing extremely well with no change in transmission behavior.

 

[TooManyWheels]

It seems extremely premature to condemn the fluid without even knowing the nature of the failure.

 

[Oil Changer]

I changed the filter on the first and fourth (last) pan drop. The filter was snug and tight to the o-ring each time.

 

[JTK]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
I changed the filter on the first and fourth (last) pan drop. The filter was snug and tight to the o-ring each time.


I don't think the filter was the cause here. Any filter seating (O-ring) issues I've read of on 4L60Es resulted in weird shifting issues. Never heard of it causing an out of the blue failure, w/out having symptoms first.

OC, I hear you on the drain plug kits. That's what has kept me from buying them in the past. Unless it's a deep pan, it's tough to judge where to install them! Ironically, the last drain plug-less vehicle I owned was a 2005 Trailblazer with a 4L60E. I did a cooler line drain/fill on that one. At the time I used Carquest or Napa universal Dex/Merc because it was on sale.

Joel

 

[bourne]

@Oil_Changer :

First off, thank you so much for actually taking the time to bring us upto date on the events ( no sarcasm, we really did want to know ). It is extremely unfortunate that even after following the exact procedures you had to deal with failure. You mentioned that after the 4th pan drop and with a new filter you experienced different shifting right away ??? Did the same happen the previous three times you did the pan drop ?

I still believe that the failure of the unit was not due to the fluid. If the fluid was not working well with your unit, by the 2nd or the 3rd drop you would have known or felt it. Is the old transmission being taken apart to investigate the cause of failure ?

 

[bourne]

Originally Posted By: meep


I have had ML screw up a honda AT, to the chagrin of many ML followers... but the honda AT is a bit different from a Dexron unit.




Lol, I have to ask now, what happened ? And why do you think it was Maxlife that ruined the transmission ?

I ask because thats all I run in my Acura with one of the most problematic 5 speed autos Honda ever made. If its going to blow up I need to know .........

 

[INDYMAC]

Oil Changer, Here is a UOA I did on my daughter's truck recently for comparison. The transmission still works fine.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2741883#Post2741883

 

[Oldswagon]

Did you ever find out the cause of the failure, ie what parts failed in the transmission?

When I worked at GM, 4L60E's were hit and miss. Some were good for 200K miles, some failed in less than 10,000 miles (often hard part failures), and some lasted in between. I have a hard time believing the fluid was the cause of this failur without any evidence to support such a claim. You stated that you checked the fluid each day after the change and it was fine. After the failure it was black. To me, this suggests a sudden catastrophic failure of some sort. Perhaps a hard part failed, which caused the 3-4 failure. However this is just guess, I am not a tranny tech.

There are lots of reasons for transmission failures, and like others have said, fluid is rarely the cause. I don't think you did anything wrong, but I think your tranny would have failed regardless of the fluid change.

Check out this link with a 30 common problems for the 4L60E:

http://www.silveradosierra.com/transmission/30-common-problems-with-the-4l60e-t6560.html

 

[FoxS]

So many interesting insights in this thread.

When I began to realize how important transmission maintenance was, I immediately did a filter change. The manufacturer only called for it at 12 years / 120k but I thought it best to drop the pan both for the filter change and an inspection. This was at 65k / 8 years. On the one hand, this reduced the filtering efficiency. On the other, as I was a little late on my fluid change, I reduced the chance of the old filter clogging up. Since the transmission should be producing less wear now than when new, I am presuming that having a new filter is not too big a deal. But it does seem that it wouldn't take much effort to make filters with both way more efficiency and sufficient capacity given the synthetic materials out there as well as good old fashioned pleating.

Jim has posted up some great information on when a transmission has the most wear. Taking that information and applying it to your own transmission's history may help you plan your future course of action.

A couple of other observations:

• Interesting that (the current) Maxlife Dex/Merc, designed for older transmissions, is significantly thinner than regular Dex/Merc. In fact, it is significantly thinner than all other atfs except dexron vi. Does that make intuitive sense from a lubrication perspective in an older transmission?

• For the entire quantity of maxlife to suddenly fail seems to mean something outside of the maxlife went wrong. When the OP did his first drain and fill (and filter change), the original fluid was pink. When he checked it after the first drain and fill, it was pink. When he checked it every single time between then and between the failure, it was pink. It was pink after the 2nd drain and fill and after the 3rd drain and fill. At the fourth drain and fill, the OP also changed the filter again, this time also managing to remove the seal and installing the new filter completely.

If something had been up with the maxlife, it would have not stayed pink during all those changes. It would have been oxidising and losing it's color. But since the OP got a good chance to see it again at the 4th drain and fill, we know that it was in good condition up until that point.

So we need to concentrate on what happened at the fourth drain and fill and onwards.

It's unlikely that the 4 or so quarts added at the 4th drain and fill were any different from the previous fluid used and compromised the entire fluid quality.

It's possible that the filter let in air and this meant that whole parts of the transmission did not receive sufficient lubrication. This went on for 4 days and ended in catastrophic failure.

The big question for the OP is did he check the fluid in these 4 days? If it was pink up until the actual drive that led to failure, then the filter failure cause looks less likely.

So if it's not the filter failure, then what are the circumstances that would cause all of that fluid to overheat and oxidize? Did it happen because the OP continued to drive after the initial failure?

 

[Kruse]

I'm a big believer that an automatic transmission with an unknown past should have the fluid and filter changed even if it is a high mileage car. However, I have had two instances have have rattled my beliefs, at least just a little bit. Years ago, I bought my daughter a '98 Monte Carlo with a shady past. The tranny shifted great and I had her drive it for several months before changing the transmission oil and filter. A couple of days after that, it would shift back and forth between 3rd and 4th on it's own driving down the highway. It took about a week before it shifted fine again and all was well. (Failing intake gaskets is another story though)
About 10 years ago, I changed the filter and tranny oil in my mom's '96 Taurus with a unknown past. Again, all was well before, but the a couple of days afterwards, it was spewing foamy oil out the top of the vent tube. It did it for a couple of days before miraculously fixing itself.
I still tell every one that a transmission needs maintenance, even if the past history is unknown, but I now try to install a filter with a screen instead of one with a paper media, if there is a choice.

 

[Oil Changer]

The OEM trans is no more; this was an R&R. We will never know what failed. All I know is that third and OD were gone.

My options were to tear the OEM down at some ridiculous dollar per hour or swap it out. I opted for the swap out. Much to my delight, the invoice stated they did a complete flush of the lines, cooler, and converter. Remember that this vehicle was bought in SoCal it came factory equipped with a cooler and the deep pan. Both filters had to be ordered as my local auto parts store only had standard pan filters in stock.

 

[Oil Changer]

FoxS, I religiously checked the fluid before and after driving the vehicle each day before driving the van. I would not have drove it if I thought something was wrong. The loss was immediate and catastrophic.

 

[Oil Changer]

To all:

I will always bash Ashland/Valvoline products. The regulars here will have to live with it. I can not prove if it was the fluid or not but the fluid is the only variable.

At this point, the failure or the make of fluid is moot. I do not like the way I was treated by Ashland/Valvoline after the fact. There analysis was final. There was no discussion. They said they were not going to honor their warranty and slammed the door.

The way I see it, they owe me $2700. I work on alot of vehicles. I will tell the owner of each one how bad Valvoline is and avoid their products like the plague. I am commited to getting my money back through Ashland's lost revenue.

Next step is Facebook...

P.S. I have remained silent on this but was pushed into telling this story but a select few individuals who thought I had some unsubstantiated agenda. I have an agenda alright...

 

[JOD]

Your transmission failed, and you're out a big chunk of cash. I get that your mad, but it seems misplaced to me. You claim the fluid is to blame. That leaves 2 possibilities:

1) the fluid isn't suitable for this transmission. That seems unlikely, since this is a fairly common transmission and ML is a very common fluid. It's hard to believe this hasn't come up before if it's not suitable for your application.

2) there was a bad run of fluid. The analysis of the fluid shows that it contained the correct additives, so that seems unlikely as well.

So, I'm having a difficult time seeing how they "owe you", and I'm not exactly sure what you expect them to do?

 

[Oil Changer]

I don't expect them to do anything. They made it clear they won't. Doesn't mean I have to support them either.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
To all:

I will always bash Ashland/Valvoline products. The regulars here will have to live with it. I can not prove if it was the fluid or not but the fluid is the only variable.

At this point, the failure or the make of fluid is moot. I do not like the way I was treated by Ashland/Valvoline after the fact. There analysis was final. There was no discussion. They said they were not going to honor their warranty and slammed the door.

The way I see it, they owe me $2700. I work on alot of vehicles. I will tell the owner of each one how bad Valvoline is and avoid their products like the plague. I am commited to getting my money back through Ashland's lost revenue.

Next step is Facebook...

P.S. I have remained silent on this but was pushed into telling this story but a select few individuals who thought I had some unsubstantiated agenda. I have an agenda alright...


Normally I wouldn't agree with bashing a company....however the fact that Valvoline is VERY VAGUE about it's ATF approval for Honda and Acura DW1 spec leaves me VERY suspicious of them and their integrity.

While I do believe that Valvoline Max Life ATF meets Honda Z1 specs it DOES NOT list anywhere in WRITING that it meets the newer DW1 spec. Yet someone here called Valvoline on the phone and the person said that it DOES meet the DW1 spec.

Now after your DW1 spec tranny blows up or fails how much you wanna bet that the customers claim that a Valvoline phone rep said it was approved is going to get them a new tranny?

In my view this is very unethical behavior.