A look inside the Mazda Skyactiv engine
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Originally Posted By: zmelli
I do not like any of these Green Engines, Bring over a robust Turbo-Diesel mated to a 5-speed manual, then keep it for 15 years.
Really? So, a conventional engine is better than a green engine? How so?
I'm sorry, but modern diesels are expensive, consume expensive fuel, don't achieve magic MPG numbers and have exceedingly expensive emission controls.
I will admit that a well engineered diesel is a joy to drive.
But, I have an ecoboost F150. It's a blast to drive.
I do not like any of these Green Engines, Bring over a robust Turbo-Diesel mated to a 5-speed manual, then keep it for 15 years.
Really? So, a conventional engine is better than a green engine? How so?
I'm sorry, but modern diesels are expensive, consume expensive fuel, don't achieve magic MPG numbers and have exceedingly expensive emission controls.
I will admit that a well engineered diesel is a joy to drive.
But, I have an ecoboost F150. It's a blast to drive.
Originally Posted By: MarkM66
Complexity goes up, so will rate of failure.
Seems like a great engine, but will it go 300,000 miles without major repairs?
This is my train of thought as well.
Although the Honda R18 has some pretty neat stuff going on as well and they are plenty durable. Although not DI.
Complexity goes up, so will rate of failure.
Seems like a great engine, but will it go 300,000 miles without major repairs?
This is my train of thought as well.
Although the Honda R18 has some pretty neat stuff going on as well and they are plenty durable. Although not DI.
Will Honda go to DI engines in the near future like Mazda ?
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Will Honda go to DI engines in the near future like Mazda ?
Honda is a conservative company when it comes to introducing things on a mass production vehicle that could compromise the durability of the engine or other components.
I think the solid lifters/valves is a good example of how Honda sticks with something that is tried and true even if it might appear that using the hydraulic valves is better.
When a hydraulic valve fails you MUST replace it. Period. When a solid valve falls out of spec it can fairly easily be adjusted back into spec and in the long run be cheaper and more efficient for the owner. I like that kind of thinking.
My guess is that Honda will be one of the last to migrate to DI and ONLY when they feel that the issues with it are COMPLETELY eliminated from being a potential issue. I like that kind of thinking.
Nothing wrong with old school if it works, and makes MORE sense than the "new school" way of doing things.
Honda is still one of the last that will "go their own way" when they feel it is best for the product and the customer.
Will Honda go to DI engines in the near future like Mazda ?
Honda is a conservative company when it comes to introducing things on a mass production vehicle that could compromise the durability of the engine or other components.
I think the solid lifters/valves is a good example of how Honda sticks with something that is tried and true even if it might appear that using the hydraulic valves is better.
When a hydraulic valve fails you MUST replace it. Period. When a solid valve falls out of spec it can fairly easily be adjusted back into spec and in the long run be cheaper and more efficient for the owner. I like that kind of thinking.
My guess is that Honda will be one of the last to migrate to DI and ONLY when they feel that the issues with it are COMPLETELY eliminated from being a potential issue. I like that kind of thinking.
Nothing wrong with old school if it works, and makes MORE sense than the "new school" way of doing things.
Honda is still one of the last that will "go their own way" when they feel it is best for the product and the customer.
Honda's new "Earth Dreams" 4 cylinder engine in the 2013 Accord (and presumably soon across the line) has direct injection.
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Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I think the solid lifters/valves is a good example of how Honda sticks with something that is tried and true even if it might appear that using the hydraulic valves is better.
When a hydraulic valve fails you MUST replace it. Period. When a solid valve falls out of spec it can fairly easily be adjusted back into spec and in the long run be cheaper and more efficient for the owner. I like that kind of thinking.
That's malarkey.
1. The hydraulic lifter has been around since the 1930's. It isn't any "newer" than people using overhead camshafts.
2. There are more than enough engines running around with stuck/noisy HLA's that if you HAD to replace them when they went south, these engines would have failed. But they have not. Usual cause for a plugged/collapsed HLA is varnish anyway...
3. When a solid tappet valvetrain goes out of spec on the exhaust valve, it can be of the "too tight" variety and if not fixed, can cause valve and seat failure. This is not an issue on an HLA equipped engine.
4. Cheaper to the owner? The valves on a Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, F-150, F-250, F-350, Expedition, Explorer, Mustang....etc NEVER need to be adjusted. How many examples of these engines are there out there with OBSCENE mileage that even a Honda owner would be jealous of? How many times do you think the HLA's have been replaced in those engines? Want to gamble at probably NEVER? How many times do you think the valve covers have been off? Exactly. ONE valve adjustment done by an independent or dealer on a Honda will cost more than what your average Modular owner will ever spend on valvetrain maintenance over the life of their vehicle, which will likely be absolutely nothing.
Now on your points about DI, I think you are spot-on
I think the solid lifters/valves is a good example of how Honda sticks with something that is tried and true even if it might appear that using the hydraulic valves is better.
When a hydraulic valve fails you MUST replace it. Period. When a solid valve falls out of spec it can fairly easily be adjusted back into spec and in the long run be cheaper and more efficient for the owner. I like that kind of thinking.
That's malarkey.
1. The hydraulic lifter has been around since the 1930's. It isn't any "newer" than people using overhead camshafts.
2. There are more than enough engines running around with stuck/noisy HLA's that if you HAD to replace them when they went south, these engines would have failed. But they have not. Usual cause for a plugged/collapsed HLA is varnish anyway...
3. When a solid tappet valvetrain goes out of spec on the exhaust valve, it can be of the "too tight" variety and if not fixed, can cause valve and seat failure. This is not an issue on an HLA equipped engine.
4. Cheaper to the owner? The valves on a Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, F-150, F-250, F-350, Expedition, Explorer, Mustang....etc NEVER need to be adjusted. How many examples of these engines are there out there with OBSCENE mileage that even a Honda owner would be jealous of? How many times do you think the HLA's have been replaced in those engines? Want to gamble at probably NEVER? How many times do you think the valve covers have been off? Exactly. ONE valve adjustment done by an independent or dealer on a Honda will cost more than what your average Modular owner will ever spend on valvetrain maintenance over the life of their vehicle, which will likely be absolutely nothing.
Now on your points about DI, I think you are spot-on
What I meant by fail was more about a tapping lifter than one that has completely failed. However, I really don't want to drive around with such a car.
If you want to quiet a tapping lifter in a HLA you MUST replace it nothing else is going to fix it. Oh sure try the elixirs if you want.
When you have a tapping valve on a solid lifter it is very cheap (especially on Honda 4 cylinders) to adjust to spec.
And you don't really have as much of a chance of a valve tightening up as loosening up. Although of course like anything there are exceptions.
And when a valve loosens a bit it isn't going to do any damage in most circumstances anyhow.
When you consider that the cost of a valve adjustment at a decent indy garage will be very cheap. It just makes more sense to me, because you can have your engine tuned more perfectly this way.
If you want to quiet a tapping lifter in a HLA you MUST replace it nothing else is going to fix it. Oh sure try the elixirs if you want.
When you have a tapping valve on a solid lifter it is very cheap (especially on Honda 4 cylinders) to adjust to spec.
And you don't really have as much of a chance of a valve tightening up as loosening up. Although of course like anything there are exceptions.
And when a valve loosens a bit it isn't going to do any damage in most circumstances anyhow.
When you consider that the cost of a valve adjustment at a decent indy garage will be very cheap. It just makes more sense to me, because you can have your engine tuned more perfectly this way.
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Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
What I meant by fail was more about a tapping lifter than one that has completely failed. However, I really don't want to drive around with such a car.
If you want to quiet a tapping lifter in a HLA you MUST replace it nothing else is going to fix it. Oh sure try the elixirs if you want.
When you have a tapping valve on a solid lifter it is very cheap (especially on Honda 4 cylinders) to adjust to spec.
And you don't really have as much of a chance of a valve tightening up as loosening up. Although of course like anything there are exceptions.
And when a valve loosens a bit it isn't going to do any damage in most circumstances anyhow.
When you consider that the cost of a valve adjustment at a decent indy garage will be very cheap. It just makes more sense to me, because you can have your engine tuned more perfectly this way.
I understood what you meant. My point is that in application, unless the engine is abused, the likelihood of an HLA failing, particularly in a low valve spring pressure app like a Modular is quite rare. Probably even less likely than a Honda exhaust valve tightening up the lash
I've also never had to change a lifter in any of the Windsor's I've owned. Even ones I've cammed and put heavier springs in. And these are much more taxing applications than an OHC engine with light springs and tiny valves.
What I meant by fail was more about a tapping lifter than one that has completely failed. However, I really don't want to drive around with such a car.
If you want to quiet a tapping lifter in a HLA you MUST replace it nothing else is going to fix it. Oh sure try the elixirs if you want.
When you have a tapping valve on a solid lifter it is very cheap (especially on Honda 4 cylinders) to adjust to spec.
And you don't really have as much of a chance of a valve tightening up as loosening up. Although of course like anything there are exceptions.
And when a valve loosens a bit it isn't going to do any damage in most circumstances anyhow.
When you consider that the cost of a valve adjustment at a decent indy garage will be very cheap. It just makes more sense to me, because you can have your engine tuned more perfectly this way.
I understood what you meant. My point is that in application, unless the engine is abused, the likelihood of an HLA failing, particularly in a low valve spring pressure app like a Modular is quite rare. Probably even less likely than a Honda exhaust valve tightening up the lash
I've also never had to change a lifter in any of the Windsor's I've owned. Even ones I've cammed and put heavier springs in. And these are much more taxing applications than an OHC engine with light springs and tiny valves.
Haven't replaced but one hydraulic lifter in the last twenty years across MANY fleet and personal vehicles. Many were old style flat tappet designs, now they're all rollers.
And I have killed the 'tap-tap-tap' noise many times with so called 'elixers'! It can work if the noise is varnish or deposits that can be dissolved. It can work and should be done prior to dis-assembly as a real time and money saver.
You guys can ave those adjustable valvetrains. IMO more trouble than they're worth.
And I have killed the 'tap-tap-tap' noise many times with so called 'elixers'! It can work if the noise is varnish or deposits that can be dissolved. It can work and should be done prior to dis-assembly as a real time and money saver.
You guys can ave those adjustable valvetrains. IMO more trouble than they're worth.
Originally Posted By: SLCraig
Originally Posted By: MarkM66
Complexity goes up, so will rate of failure.
Seems like a great engine, but will it go 300,000 miles without major repairs?
This is my train of thought as well.
Although the Honda R18 has some pretty neat stuff going on as well and they are plenty durable. Although not DI.
Really? I guess this is prone to daily failure then!
And modern fuel injection engines have complex electronics (maybe that does not count) and tons of connectors, and injector internal parts, and and and. Yet they regularly outlast earlier engines.
It could very well be that direct injection engines outlive conventional engines.
Originally Posted By: MarkM66
Complexity goes up, so will rate of failure.
Seems like a great engine, but will it go 300,000 miles without major repairs?
This is my train of thought as well.
Although the Honda R18 has some pretty neat stuff going on as well and they are plenty durable. Although not DI.
Really? I guess this is prone to daily failure then!
And modern fuel injection engines have complex electronics (maybe that does not count) and tons of connectors, and injector internal parts, and and and. Yet they regularly outlast earlier engines.
It could very well be that direct injection engines outlive conventional engines.
Where so these marketing dweebs come up with these stupid names,
Sky Active, Earth Dreams?? Please LOL
Originally Posted By: rationull
Honda's new "Earth Dreams" 4 cylinder engine in the 2013 Accord (and presumably soon across the line) has direct injection.
Sky Active, Earth Dreams?? Please LOL
Originally Posted By: rationull
Honda's new "Earth Dreams" 4 cylinder engine in the 2013 Accord (and presumably soon across the line) has direct injection.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
You guys can ave those adjustable valvetrains. IMO more trouble than they're worth.
Adjusting the valves on our Fit was an exercise in frustration due to how Honda packaged the engine. Rip apart cowl, rip apart intake system, rip out battery, remove coils, be sure my screwdriver wasn't too long, etc. Thankfully it is a once every 50k miles thing.
Brother has a new Skyactiv engine in his Mazda3 hatch. He said the revving at 2000 RPM on a cold start un-nerved him the first few times it did it. He's using QSUD 0w-20 per my recommendation. Seems to have enough get-up from the seat time I've had in it. He's averaging about 33-34 mpg in suburban traffic. It's a manual transmission, of course. Good on Mazda for offering a slick row-your-own in the hatch with the fuel-miser engine. Practical and fun at the same time.
I'll find out second-hand how it fares, since he'll be calling me with any questions about what it's doing if it breaks.
You guys can ave those adjustable valvetrains. IMO more trouble than they're worth.
Brother has a new Skyactiv engine in his Mazda3 hatch. He said the revving at 2000 RPM on a cold start un-nerved him the first few times it did it. He's using QSUD 0w-20 per my recommendation. Seems to have enough get-up from the seat time I've had in it. He's averaging about 33-34 mpg in suburban traffic. It's a manual transmission, of course. Good on Mazda for offering a slick row-your-own in the hatch with the fuel-miser engine. Practical and fun at the same time.
I'll find out second-hand how it fares, since he'll be calling me with any questions about what it's doing if it breaks.
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Originally Posted By: VNTS
Where so these marketing dweebs come up with these stupid names,
Sky Active, Earth Dreams?? Please LOL
Originally Posted By: rationull
Honda's new "Earth Dreams" 4 cylinder engine in the 2013 Accord (and presumably soon across the line) has direct injection.
Well to be frank, the marketing teams are from Japan and speak Japanese as the primary language. My guess is the Japanese equivalent sounds less silly, or that skyactiv itself sounds less silly to the Japanese.
Where so these marketing dweebs come up with these stupid names,
Sky Active, Earth Dreams?? Please LOL
Originally Posted By: rationull
Honda's new "Earth Dreams" 4 cylinder engine in the 2013 Accord (and presumably soon across the line) has direct injection.
Well to be frank, the marketing teams are from Japan and speak Japanese as the primary language. My guess is the Japanese equivalent sounds less silly, or that skyactiv itself sounds less silly to the Japanese.
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
You guys can ave those adjustable valvetrains. IMO more trouble than they're worth.
Adjusting the valves on our Fit was an exercise in frustration due to how Honda packaged the engine. Rip apart cowl, rip apart intake system, rip out battery, remove coils, be sure my screwdriver wasn't too long, etc. Thankfully it is a once every 50k miles thing.
Brother has a new Skyactiv engine in his Mazda3 hatch. He said the revving at 2000 RPM on a cold start un-nerved him the first few times it did it. He's using QSUD 0w-20 per my recommendation. Seems to have enough get-up from the seat time I've had in it. He's averaging about 33-34 mpg in suburban traffic. It's a manual transmission, of course. Good on Mazda for offering a slick row-your-own in the hatch with the fuel-miser engine. Practical and fun at the same time.
I'll find out second-hand how it fares, since he'll be calling me with any questions about what it's doing if it breaks.
Well 10,800 miles on my CX-5 and so far zero problems. I've gotten more used to it over time, and for the most part and quite satisfied with it. I still wouldn't mind going back to something smaller and less expensive and better on gas, but it's not driving me crazy or anything. I actually just got my 2nd oil change yesterday, I had the dealer do it because I'm sick and didn't feel like crawling underneath the car on the cold ground. I watched them do it and I did have them take a sample for a UOA and I have the filter. But when I was talking to the service manager he said that they haven't had any come back for anything except oil changes and tire rotations, no problems of any kind.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
You guys can ave those adjustable valvetrains. IMO more trouble than they're worth.
Brother has a new Skyactiv engine in his Mazda3 hatch. He said the revving at 2000 RPM on a cold start un-nerved him the first few times it did it. He's using QSUD 0w-20 per my recommendation. Seems to have enough get-up from the seat time I've had in it. He's averaging about 33-34 mpg in suburban traffic. It's a manual transmission, of course. Good on Mazda for offering a slick row-your-own in the hatch with the fuel-miser engine. Practical and fun at the same time.
I'll find out second-hand how it fares, since he'll be calling me with any questions about what it's doing if it breaks.
Well 10,800 miles on my CX-5 and so far zero problems. I've gotten more used to it over time, and for the most part and quite satisfied with it. I still wouldn't mind going back to something smaller and less expensive and better on gas, but it's not driving me crazy or anything. I actually just got my 2nd oil change yesterday, I had the dealer do it because I'm sick and didn't feel like crawling underneath the car on the cold ground. I watched them do it and I did have them take a sample for a UOA and I have the filter. But when I was talking to the service manager he said that they haven't had any come back for anything except oil changes and tire rotations, no problems of any kind.
Originally Posted By: expat
Cujet I'm sorry said:
Total cost of ownership is precisely why we use GAS powered stuff in our fleet.
My Dmax needs more maintenance than a gas motor.
My Dmax needs more maintenance than a gas motor.
One thing I noticed is the very very good BSFC in this new engine.
[This is Lbs of fuel used per hour per horsepower.]
Normal is like they say, .45, and theirs is .28.
We have to remember that BSFC is for full throttle - tests are not done at part throttle.
At least none that I ever heard of, and can't conceive of how testing could be done repetitively and comparably.
So at full throttle, the 13/1 compression with valve timing , and DI helps quite a bit.
Part throttle is pretty good, but not earth shaking.
[This is Lbs of fuel used per hour per horsepower.]
Normal is like they say, .45, and theirs is .28.
We have to remember that BSFC is for full throttle - tests are not done at part throttle.
At least none that I ever heard of, and can't conceive of how testing could be done repetitively and comparably.
So at full throttle, the 13/1 compression with valve timing , and DI helps quite a bit.
Part throttle is pretty good, but not earth shaking.
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Originally Posted By: VNTS
Where so these marketing dweebs come up with these stupid names,
Sky Active, Earth Dreams?? Please LOL
Originally Posted By: rationull
Honda's new "Earth Dreams" 4 cylinder engine in the 2013 Accord (and presumably soon across the line) has direct injection.
LOL!!!
The next one will be "Enviro Essence" or "Supple Green"
Where so these marketing dweebs come up with these stupid names,
Sky Active, Earth Dreams?? Please LOL
Originally Posted By: rationull
Honda's new "Earth Dreams" 4 cylinder engine in the 2013 Accord (and presumably soon across the line) has direct injection.
LOL!!!
The next one will be "Enviro Essence" or "Supple Green"
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