Observation between domestic and import of the 90s

[PandaBear]

After I spend some time on the inherited, beat up, 93 Ford Escort and a owned since new 95 Corolla, I'm coming up to the follow conclusion of the design philosophy difference between domestic and import:

1) Domestic seems to put more advance control/design in the car vs the import. You see waste spark ignition instead of mechanical distributor rotor. You also see the MAF sensor in the air box away from the throttle to reduce contamination.

2) Import has better plastic quality and more traditional layout. The plastic doesn't seems to get as brittle and with less sharp edges in import as the Fisher Price like fit and finish of the domestic.

3) Import has less feature but more durable interior. The soft rubber part in domestic seems to not have rigid integrity that domestic has, and they seems to "melt" out of shape and lost a paint and reveal a black internal compare to the import.

4) Domestic seems to have more stable "handling" and taller gearing, even with bigger displacement the domestic doesn't feel as much "oomph" as a smaller import in city driving. At highway driving domestic seems to cruise with lower rpm and smoother drive.



I notice similar characteristic between an 08 Malibu rental vs an 07 Camry loaner.

 

[rationull]

Not sure how much of a comparison this is between "domestic" and "import" vs between "93 Escort" and "95 Corolla". I think it depends on the car to a large extent, although the Escort and the Corolla should be a pretty even comparison.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear

1) Domestic seems to put more advance control/design in the car vs the import. You see waste spark ignition instead of mechanical distributor rotor. You also see the MAF sensor in the air box away from the throttle to reduce contamination.

The preferred engine on the Ford Escort circa 1993 is the Mazda BP 1.8 engine (Escort GT)

Originally Posted By: PandaBear


2) Import has better plastic quality and more traditional layout. The plastic doesn't seems to get as brittle and with less sharp edges in import as the Fisher Price like fit and finish of the domestic.


Possibly. That was the real drawback with a Neon vs an import. (well that and the head gasket failures on early models) The Neon interior just felt cheap even against it's own in house Mitsubishi sourced Colt sibling. The exception would be the first round of Daewoos and Kias that would fold up and crack the plastic and vinyl upon exposure to any sunlight.

Originally Posted By: PandaBear

3) Import has less feature but more durable interior. The soft rubber part in domestic seems to not have rigid integrity that domestic has, and they seems to "melt" out of shape and lost a paint and reveal a black internal compare to the import.

See above.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear

4) Domestic seems to have more stable "handling" and taller gearing, even with bigger displacement the domestic doesn't feel as much "oomph" as a smaller import in city driving. At highway driving domestic seems to cruise with lower rpm and smoother drive.

Maybe. But if that era of Escort had any road manners at all, it owed it to the Mazda B-chassis DNA.
The Escorts' shifters all felt a little less precise and loose than the Mazda Protege's. Not as bad as the Kia Sephia though that shared a chassis with the Escort and Protege'. That was the most vague "mop handle in an empty bucket" shifter I have ever experienced. The Mexican built Tracer copies of the Escort seemed a little worse than the Michigan built Escorts, but still not as bad as the Sephia.
As far as the gearing? Probably. The Domestics typically had more torque than their Asian counterparts. Particularly the Neon that was engineered towards a balance of horsepower and torque. Not biased towards either one. They should have been able to pull a taller gear.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: rationull
Not sure how much of a comparison this is between "domestic" and "import" vs between "93 Escort" and "95 Corolla". I think it depends on the car to a large extent, although the Escort and the Corolla should be a pretty even comparison.


Both similar era (93 Corolla is identical to 95) B segment econo box in near base model.

Actually even Civic vs Cavalier seems to draw similar observations IMO: Civic has AM/FM radio and no power mirror (actually some model with even just 1 side mirror on driver side) but have better plastic nobs and interior quality. Cavalier has more features but lower quality parts.

Seems like a design philosophy difference, on what the designer feel as the minimum requirement on features vs component quality.

 

[Stu_Rock]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
2) Import has ... more traditional layout.
Definitely disagree there, but the rest of the post is mostly true.

Maybe you might say the layouts are more consistent across the Asian brands, but to people who have driven domestic cars for a long time imports are almost always nontraditional.

Examples are the headlight switch on a stick instead of on the dashboard, wiper switch on a stick where the shifter should be, hazard lamp switch way off on the dashboard instead of on the steering column.

 

[ethangsmith]

I've always felt imports to be cheezy- loud, rock hard seats, cheap interiors, and shoddy construction. I have a 99 Escort that hasn't been perfect, but I dumped my 97 Subaru after only 3 months of ownership. To me, the Escort felt like a luxury machine in comparison to the Legacy. The seats are more comfortable, it cruises the highway better, and the layout of the interior is far superior. Oh, and yes, I swear by domestic vehicles- so yea, I'm probably a little biased, but hey, I've at least tried the Asian stuff. Just not my thing.

 

[cchase]

I'm not sure I think the interiors of Asian cars are any more durable than American vehicles. The tactile feel of materials may be better in some makes but there's a difference between feeling good and looking the same (and holding up) for years. Subaru is a notable exception in my experience. Their interiors seem to rival the worst of any competitor in terms of feeling cheap, and I've seen more dead displays on Subaru clocks than every other make combined.

Look at BMW for an idea of interiors that FEEL great but don't hold up well over time in most cases.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: Stu_Rock
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
2) Import has ... more traditional layout.
Definitely disagree there, but the rest of the post is mostly true.

Maybe you might say the layouts are more consistent across the Asian brands, but to people who have driven domestic cars for a long time imports are almost always nontraditional.

Examples are the headlight switch on a stick instead of on the dashboard, wiper switch on a stick where the shifter should be, hazard lamp switch way off on the dashboard instead of on the steering column.


I think that's why Ford moved the wiper stalk off of the '06 Fusion's column. They didn't want a bunch of traditional Ford drivers grabbing the wiper stalk and snapping it off to put the car in Drive.

The plastic cover is very similar to the Mazda6 it's based off of but absent the opening for the wiper stalk.

I still prefer having the headlamps on the turn-signal stalk. Fly in late, go to get your rental Fusion in a dark covered parking area, and switch the wipers on instead of the headlights.

Then fumble around on the dash looking for the switch until you open the door to turn the interior light on and find the switch.

I think the hazard light switch on the dashboard is a German idea. I remember several of my early Japanese cars having the switch on the top of the column. Pushed or toggled instead of pulled up like domestics (which is so antithetical to a safety device. Big button-middle of the dash is actually a better placement)

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: ethangsmith
I've always felt imports to be cheezy- loud, rock hard seats, cheap interiors, and shoddy construction. I have a 99 Escort that hasn't been perfect, but I dumped my 97 Subaru after only 3 months of ownership. To me, the Escort felt like a luxury machine in comparison to the Legacy. The seats are more comfortable, it cruises the highway better, and the layout of the interior is far superior. Oh, and yes, I swear by domestic vehicles- so yea, I'm probably a little biased, but hey, I've at least tried the Asian stuff. Just not my thing.


The '99 Escort is still based on a Mazda chassis. It's a Protege' with a torque biased engine. (about 20 hp less than the Mazda but about 10 more ft-lbs torque) oh, and the gawdawful radio/HVAC oval.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
I think that's why Ford moved the wiper stalk off of the '06 Fusion's column. They didn't want a bunch of traditional Ford drivers grabbing the wiper stalk and snapping it off to put the car in Drive.

Column shifters are for police cars, taxis, and old coots.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
I think that's why Ford moved the wiper stalk off of the '06 Fusion's column. They didn't want a bunch of traditional Ford drivers grabbing the wiper stalk and snapping it off to put the car in Drive.

Column shifters are for police cars, taxis, and old coots.

I think column shifter are for those cars with bench seats on the front, aka middle seat if you fold away the center storage and cup holders (Taurus), those platform that has 6 seat sedan. Japanese cars have this setup on Toyota and Nissan Taxi. Ford Escort also has the center shifter.

When you have column shifter, you sort of have no choice but to have wiper control on the left stick, and light control on the dash.

I was thinking about the early to mid 90s, but in 2000s things change and Toyota got cheapen with lower quality plastic. To me the thick carpet and textured fabric seats in many 90s domestic feels aged and weird and I'd rather have the thinner and cleaner cloth texture of the domestic. Sitting in that era's domestic makes me feel like I went to a grandma's house and sit on a 40 year old sofa, whereas that era's import feels like you're sitting in a newish generic office chair.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: cchase
I'm not sure I think the interiors of Asian cars are any more durable than American vehicles. The tactile feel of materials may be better in some makes but there's a difference between feeling good and looking the same (and holding up) for years. Subaru is a notable exception in my experience. Their interiors seem to rival the worst of any competitor in terms of feeling cheap, and I've seen more dead displays on Subaru clocks than every other make combined.

Look at BMW for an idea of interiors that FEEL great but don't hold up well over time in most cases.


I was referring to the rubbery feel material I see on Escort and Malibu. That rubber coated material seems to have no structural integrity and would deform over time, and a straight and flat surface turns wavy after a while. The hard plastic with a textured coating like material used in Corolla and Civic seems to just have the coating harden, but doesn't deform or scrub off to reveal the different color material underneath.

European to me is an entirely different animal, and IMO the 328i I've seen feels a bit "plastic" too. I do admit I have a bias toward the Lexus IS interior, they seems to be "just right" and better than many lower end European.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
I think column shifter are for those cars with bench seats on the front, aka middle seat if you fold away the center storage and cup holders (Taurus), those platform that has 6 seat sedan. Japanese cars have this setup on Toyota and Nissan Taxi.


Like I said, police cars, taxis, and old coots.

I have to watch my mouth though, since the only vehicles I've ever had with a floor shifter (aside from trucks with standards) were the old Audi and the G. I've had more column shifters and bench seats than I know what to do with.

 

[dwcopple]

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
.

When you have column shifter, you sort of have no choice but to have wiper control on the left stick, and light control on the dash.


I dunno....Mercedes Benz and Volkswagen often put multiple stalks on the other side of the column.

Or you can go all Subaru style and have big control panels protruding out just behind the steering wheel.

IIRC, the last round of Daytonas and LeBarons had a similar arrangement except they didn't have a stalk at all, the controls stuck out of the dash.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
.

When you have column shifter, you sort of have no choice but to have wiper control on the left stick, and light control on the dash.


I dunno....Mercedes Benz and Volkswagen often put multiple stalks on the other side of the column.

Yup. Our C300 has 2 stalks on the left hand side of the steering column, one for turn signals, wipers, and high beams, and the other smaller one for cruise control. It works OK although I personally prefer steering wheel buttons for cruise control like in my 530i.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
After I spend some time on the inherited, beat up, 93 Ford Escort and a owned since new 95 Corolla, I'm coming up to the follow conclusion of the design philosophy difference between domestic and import:

1) Domestic seems to put more advance control/design in the car vs the import. You see waste spark ignition instead of mechanical distributor rotor. You also see the MAF sensor in the air box away from the throttle to reduce contamination.

2) Import has better plastic quality and more traditional layout. The plastic doesn't seems to get as brittle and with less sharp edges in import as the Fisher Price like fit and finish of the domestic.

3) Import has less feature but more durable interior. The soft rubber part in domestic seems to not have rigid integrity that domestic has, and they seems to "melt" out of shape and lost a paint and reveal a black internal compare to the import.

4) Domestic seems to have more stable "handling" and taller gearing, even with bigger displacement the domestic doesn't feel as much "oomph" as a smaller import in city driving. At highway driving domestic seems to cruise with lower rpm and smoother drive.



I notice similar characteristic between an 08 Malibu rental vs an 07 Camry loaner.


I go generally agree with your observations. Domestics were early in getting rid of the distributor, adjustable accessory belts, adjustable idle speed, pressurized coolant surge tank, stainless steel exhaust and of course they prefered hydraulic cam followers and used less timing belts although the Escort has one. So less maintenance areas in general.

Most of the quality difference that existed was in interior and switchgear. Places where the owner would really notice and subjectively feel the whole car was more quality.

And there was also a tuning difference. More compliant ride, seats, bigger engine/higher gearing, sometimes more sound deading etc on domestics. A lot of the small imports with a ~1.6 engine, manual and hard ride and seats weren't very comfortable cruisers IMO. A '95 up Sunfire almost feels like a Cadillac compared to a Corolla imo.

 

[Spazdog]

The only chain driven OHC domestic I can think of from that era is the GM Quad4/QuadOHC/TwinCam. Everything else was either belt driven (Chrysler, 2.2/2.5, A588 - Sunbird 2.0 - Ford CVH) or cam in block (GM 1.8/2.0/2.2 - Ford HSC 2.3/2.5) Or they just used a Japanese engine (Ford Probe) Or they just rebadged a Japanese car. (Colt, Conquest, Sprint, Spectrum, Prizm, Storm, Metro...)

Not many OHV engines have a belt driven cam. All the Toyota and Nissan OHV engines from the '70s were chain driven and the Subaru OHV engines were gear driven. So it makes sense that they would have chains.

I don't even know if you can count the Sunbird's 2.0 as a "domestic". It was imported from Brazil.

The Cavalier may have had a timing chain, but it also had a simple leaf spring tensioner and often required replacement on par with a timing belt.

An EH9 or EJ8 Civic feels like an Acura. A Cavalier feels like....well, a Cavalier.

IMHO, the Neon was the first domestic to get close. It had as much torque as the GM 2200 engine and more horsepower than the Honda Civic SOHC VTEC motors. Good handling and steering. Managed the interior space well too although it appeared to be made by Sterlite plastic container company. Interior was cheap. Didn't help matters that they suffered a lot of head gasket failures early on.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
.

When you have column shifter, you sort of have no choice but to have wiper control on the left stick, and light control on the dash.


I dunno....Mercedes Benz and Volkswagen often put multiple stalks on the other side of the column.

Or you can go all Subaru style and have big control panels protruding out just behind the steering wheel.

IIRC, the last round of Daytonas and LeBarons had a similar arrangement except they didn't have a stalk at all, the controls stuck out of the dash.


Dude...1990 called. They want their arcade game back!

 

[mechanicx]

So the Quad 4 DOHC with timing chains when put in lots of vehicles hardly counts? And what difference does it make if an engine is OHV as long as facilitates the use of a chain? They still had a timing chain by design/engine type. I don't agree that those OHV chains didn't last much longer than a belt.

I noticed you sure throw a lot of sometimes irrelevant trivia out, overly dissect everything and mix it with opinion and preference and seem to present as indisputable fact (just my impression I could be mistaken). Your opinion/experience of 2nd and 3rd gen J-cars and N-cars vs whatever else is not my experience of them especially when they were new and not abused, worn out and hacked up strippers.