Let's talk BMW's

[SteveSRT8]

I know there are a lot of BMW fans here, but I want to know how anyone can defend them when the latest story I hear on this board is about failing rod bearings!

How many other makers have failing bearings? Not to mention a quick search on Google comes up with a gazillion hits from unhappy owners. The impression is one of a car with spotty quality, expensive repairs, and a ton of history going way back in time.

I'm a big promoter of 'internet amplification' so I understand how a marque is not reported by the many happy owners, but my impressions of BMW quality are not helped by the 3 I owned and the owners I know personally.

Let's hear from the BMW folks.

 

[Quattro Pete]

No failed rod bearings on my 530i, but oil and coolant leaks galore. Then there is a whole litany of electrical and electronics issues that could drive you nuts if you're anal retentive about making sure everything on a car works 100%.

If I ever get another BMW, it'll be a CPO one with plenty of warranty remaining.

 

[45ACP]

The three you owned are in the minority if they had spectacular failures such as that, the ones across the country are doing alright but of course there are some cases of bad units as with any car, and mine took a beating that lesser cars would have had failed engines from though i used heavy oil and my engine ran hotter than it should have (which is why i used xW-50 and it liked it and helped gas mileage) it ran for a good long time.

What BMW?
What engine?
What failure?

BMW is a great car and has engine-building on par with Honda, the new ones are priced astronomical but i need more information.

Buy an old BMW ~25 years old, put 5W-50 or 15W-50 or 20W-50 in it and it will serve you well until something thats not the engine goes. And all that means is that you have purchased a classic car, and a BMW at that.

EDIT: Quattro Pete, the redesign of the 5-series in the early 2000s is when they took a downturn in quality. Those cars are a big "avoid" to most, myself included. The 2002+ 7-series aint so hot either. Im wondering if SteveSRT8 is talking about the 3-series, 1-series, and X trucks and Z coupes... N54 engine? immediately replaced with N55 engine? I need details.

 

[TooManyWheels]

I had the exact same thought. Even the web page for the repair facility selected shows an engine in the shop just for rod bearing replacement (presumably not our same poster).

 

[bepperb]

Quality is different things to different people.

To me quality is a car that can go 200,000 miles with less than 1000 in repairs and has a radio loud enough to drown out the road noise.

To a BMW owner quality may be the level of refinement of the interior materials, or the tactile feedback while driving.

They probably think I'm an idiot for spending money on what I do. The feeling is mutual. I would assume the average person who buys a new BMW is probably leasing it, and even if buying they won't keep it long enough to care. Reliability doesn't need to be a top selling point to most BMW buyers. Other "qualities" are more important to them.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
I would assume the average person who buys a new BMW is probably leasing it, and even if buying they won't keep it long enough to care. Reliability doesn't need to be a top selling point to most BMW buyers. Other "qualities" are more important to them.

I think that's a fair statement. For that reason, they're OK first-hand cars. Not so much when buying used out of warranty.

 

[45ACP]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: bepperb
I would assume the average person who buys a new BMW is probably leasing it, and even if buying they won't keep it long enough to care. Reliability doesn't need to be a top selling point to most BMW buyers. Other "qualities" are more important to them.

I think that's a fair statement. For that reason, they're OK first-hand cars. Not so much when buying used out of warranty.


I would because i know what to look for, what to do, and i love the car..

 

[d00df00d]

On my computer, a search for "car recall bearings" (without the quotes) turns up quite a number of other makes, and BMW accounts for exactly two hits on the first few pages -- one of which is a Wikipedia article, in which the search hit is a sentence stating that the BMW in question is *not* part of a bearing recall.

Honda, on the other hand, figures quite prominently. But you won't find me demanding that Honda owners defend Honda quality, because judging a whole brand by Google searches isn't any more valid than judging it by anecdotes.

You state explicitly that you understand this. You also seem to understand that anecdotes don't work, either. I feel bad for you for having several problematic cars in your circle of friends, but you must know that you can find people who would say exactly the same thing about any brand you can think of.

So... what's the question again?

 

[shrooms]

IMO, BMW is an extremely overrated brand. Sub par quality. A car this 'expensive' should not have this issue. My neighbor just bought a brand new 7 series and I actually felt bad for him. He asked me how do I like the car and I didn't have the heart to tell him that he bought junk.

Beautiful LOOKING car, but it's junk.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: 45ACP
I would because i know what to look for, what to do, and i love the car..

I'm talking fairly recent models, but out of warranty already... think E60. You can't just "look for" these electrical gremlins - everything will be fine the day you buy it, but will go haywire a week later. And you will need specialized tools/code readers just to figure out what is happening.

Now, if you're buying a 25-year-old one, like you mentioned earlier, that's a different story. They were simpler back then, and I want to say more reliable, too.

 

[OVERKILL]

Steve:

The rod bearing issue (and it is not isolated to one engine family) is sort of funny to me.

Why?

Because it only happens on the high performance versions of the engine family.

So, the M54 for example, doesn't have the problem, whilst the S54 in the M3 does.

The M62 doesn't have the problem, whilst the S62 has been known to have rod bearing failures. Though I don't believe in the same degree as the S54 did.

What I find even funnier is that the Unicorn Urine (Castrol TWS 10w60) that these engines supposedly "need" to have doesn't stop the failure from occurring. That is part of the reason I didn't bother with TWS in my car.

And of course the more pedestrian engines don't require the special oil either, just the typical euro 3.5+ HTHS stuff.

As far as spotty quality and expensive repairs? You only get raped going to the dealer. My M5 hasn't been overly expensive to own thus far, and parts for my sister's 330i are cheaper than the ones for her Explorer.

Build quality, fit and finish, quality of interior materials and the RIDE, that's what makes them desirable.

But they DO have their quirks! Just like every other make. The fact that the most severe of these quirks (the rod bearing issue) happens on their "performance" models is probably the reason for the harsh criticism.

Nissan had transmissions that lunched on the GT-R
GM had the self targa-topping "feature" on the 'vette
Ford had failing LCA's on the Ford GT

Those are the "performance model" issues I can think of off the top of my head.

Non-performance model failures, we end up with a much larger list:

Ford: transmissions on their FWD platform, spark plugs ejecting (modular), spark plugs breaking off (modular), cruise control pressure switch fires.

GM: Dexcool sludge, intake gaskets lunching themselves causing potential engine failure, piston slap, excessive oil consumption (Saturn), transmission issues (Cruze), timing chain failures (Cadillac), head gasket failure/head stud failure: Northstar....etc

Dodge: Transmission problems (vans), intake valley leaking (318 IIRC), sludge (4.7L), differential failure (RAMS), transmission failure (RAMS), steering boxes falling off (RAMS), "death wobble" Jeep and RAM's....etc

Toyota: Severe engine sludge causing failure, frame failures, self-destructing camshafts, the unintended acceleration fiasco....etc

Honda: Oil filter fires, transmission failures, ignition switch fires, engine sludge (MDS odyssey: Trav's documentation), body corrosion

Nissan: engines dying due to consuming catalytic converter material


The list goes on and on.

You are right, there is an internet amplification effect going on here. These are VERY expensive vehicles (M-series cars) that are having this problem. THAT is why it gets the recognition it does.

 

[45ACP]

I saw an Alpina B7 on the road today.

Aside from costing literally as much as a small house, thats a fine vehicle. They took care of the styling woes.

BMW is a good car, but you need to be willing to accept some german eccentricity (Bavarian?) or you wont like it.

Personally, its the best-riding car ive ever had as a driver. Yes it had some issues, but i liked the car so much that i didnt care.

Quote:
Nissan: engines dying due to consuming catalytic converter material


Nissan is "famous" for popping Head Gaskets too.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: shrooms
IMO, BMW is an extremely overrated brand. Sub par quality. A car this 'expensive' should not have this issue. My neighbor just bought a brand new 7 series and I actually felt bad for him. He asked me how do I like the car and I didn't have the heart to tell him that he bought junk.

Beautiful LOOKING car, but it's junk.


How is it junk? Please explain this.

 

[bepperb]

d00df00d,

I'd agree that anecdotal evidence is difficult to compare. But you can't seriously believe that a BMW is as reliable as a more mainstream car, say a 5 series vs a Camry? Any source of quantitative information such as Consumer Reports or TrueDelta would certainly disagree with the idea those two cars have similar reliability (not to mention the increased cost of parts and labor).

Obviously a Camry doesn't drive as well as a 5 series, doesn't have as nice of an interior, isn't styled as well. In many ways the BMW is a higher quality car. But when one views quality strictly from the perspective of reliability defending BMW is more difficult than many other brands.

 

[45ACP]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: shrooms
IMO, BMW is an extremely overrated brand. Sub par quality. A car this 'expensive' should not have this issue. My neighbor just bought a brand new 7 series and I actually felt bad for him. He asked me how do I like the car and I didn't have the heart to tell him that he bought junk.

Beautiful LOOKING car, but it's junk.


How is it junk? Please explain this.


Its "junk" because he doesnt like it.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
I'd agree that anecdotal evidence is difficult to compare. But you can't seriously believe that a BMW is as reliable as a more mainstream car, say a 5 series vs a Camry? Any source of quantitative information such as Consumer Reports or TrueDelta would certainly disagree with the idea those two cars have similar reliability (not to mention the increased cost of parts and labor).

Obviously a Camry doesn't drive as well as a 5 series, doesn't have as nice of an interior, isn't styled as well. In many ways the BMW is a higher quality car. But when one views quality strictly from the perspective of reliability defending BMW is more difficult than many other brands.

Where did I even imply that a 5-series was as "reliable" as a Camry?

 

[E365]

I think a little more research need to be done on the engine in-question. The bearing issues were limited to the S54 engine, an 8,000 RPM engine used only in the E46 M3 and Z3 M Coupe/Roadsters. The early cars (M3 only) were recalled to fix the problem and later models had updated bearings which are just fine. The affected engines make up a very tiny percentage (probably
I love my BMW and don't plan on switching brands anytime soon. The way it drives and feels is far more important to me than having potentially more reliability. And I emphasize potentially because mine has been extremely reliable. The ONE time it hasn't started so far (at about 190,000 miles) I had a bad fuel pump relay. A trip to the dealer and about $10 later I was back in business. I've had numerous other little nit-picky things but it's still all quite cheap when you're a DIY'er. And speaking of DIY, a BMW can be maintained and repaired by a good DIY'er for FAR less than a mechanic would on a Chevy or Toyota. The theory of you needing special tools for everything is ridiculous - rarely do you need them and that's usually only for engine rebuilding (cam fixture jigs, vanos jigs, etc.)

Sure new BMWs are quite expensive (too much for me), but I think slightly used BMWs are the best cars you can get for the money. Right now, a late-model (2004-2005) E46 sedan in great condition and lower miles is about $15,000. IMO, there's no other car on the market for $15,000 that combines that level of build quality, handling, durability and refinement.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: 45ACP
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: shrooms
IMO, BMW is an extremely overrated brand. Sub par quality. A car this 'expensive' should not have this issue. My neighbor just bought a brand new 7 series and I actually felt bad for him. He asked me how do I like the car and I didn't have the heart to tell him that he bought junk.

Beautiful LOOKING car, but it's junk.


How is it junk? Please explain this.


Its "junk" because he doesnt like it.

I wouldn't say its junk, but how far apart are the construction and assembly techniques of a 7 series and say a Corolla? Is the 7 series interior door panel put on with stainless steel hardware? vs. a normal car where it just snaps into place with plastic clips? I suspect the doors are put together the same way as is the rest of the car. Obviously a 7 series uses thicker glass and more comprehensive sound proofing, but its not full of CNC'd bonded aluminum parts where normal cars use plastic or stamped sheet metal... I doubt the wiring connections or switches, or even the unit body uses better grades of metal in most cases.
I can't argue that the BMW isn't the nicer car overall, but its still made on an assembly line, with the same materials as most cars.

 

[07Wolfie]

If you're going to strictly classify "quality" as a function of "reliability", then don't you have to account for the complexity of the system? A 4-cyl Camry with crank windows is undoubtedly going to be more reliable than a 550i, but how much of that reliability is a result of simplicity or a basic lack of equipment? Don't we accept that a much more complex car with many more systems is going to have an inherently higher number of issues?

 

[jaj]

I've owned eight BMW's over the years, and only one - a 2001 M5 - was a repair headache. Had it not been on warranty, it would have been brutal. The rest, in particular the E92 M3 that I had until last year, have been excellent. We still have one in the family and we just put gas in it and drive it.

As for rod bearing failures - where's that coming from? It was an old story eight years ago.