Are STICKIER tires in the front a way to reduce...

[Papa Bear]

And if you "detected" what might be "perceived to be" a little understeer, what would be the harm in that? The car would go around the corner alright.
I guess my point would be to replace all 4 tires if you were concerned about handling. How can you compare 2 new tires with 2 old tires of different styles? The OP could just test drive it and then rotate fronts/rears and test drive again. He may correct his "perceived" understeer and place himself in jeopardy for traction loss on rears in emergency situations.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Papa Bear


You are talking about a 2007 Corolla here ??!! Do you race this thing ?
As usual, our BITOG enthusiasm has taken us from driving the streets of suburbia to 4 wheel drifts at Watkins Glen.
I guess my question (as a previous Corolla owner myself) is "What are you trying to address in your original post?"

I certainly wouldn't expect much if I took my Uplander to the skid-pad/slalom.

I dunno, a fwd extended minivan probably has better weight distribution than most fwd sports cars...

Put in a stiff rear sway bar and add some front camber and I bet it would be quite neutral at the limit!

Its too bad vans aren't allowed out on track days, as I'm sure alot of them with good drivers would make alot of sporty cars disappear in the rear view mirror... Going off onto the grass sideways at 80 mph might get a bit expensive though!

I used to get my parents old 89 Grand Caravan all sideways on the back road using left foot braking, it was good fun until one day it ran out of steering boost and I had a little scare getting it straightened out with the sudden lack of boost and then it coming back...

 

[dparm]

I have seen good drivers in Priuses fly past novices in Corvettes. It's how you drive, not what you drive.

 

[Papa Bear]

That's why I asked the OP if he raced his Corolla.
If it's just the grocery getter, then under/oversteer is inconsequential.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

Why do people think understeer is only detectable at the limits of performance? Yes, the understeer/oversteer characteristics may CHANGE or become more pronounced at the limits of performance and in fact oversteer is generally only felt under extreme conditions, but generally you can feel understeer (if its present) during a 25 mph turn onto a neighborhood street.


+1 to Magnum... No one likes the feel of understeer, and you can feel it without having to push very hard.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
And in my first post, I definitely let my personal dislike for FWD handling make my comments a bit more extreme than necessary . . .


Yeah, I didn't really think you needed any explanation of anything, but I definitely detected the distaste for FWD. C'mon, give it some credit for its practical benefits in terms of cost, weight, packaging efficiency, and stability/driver error forgiveness! Ideally, my car would be RWD in summer and AWD in winter, but FWD isn't that bad at lower power levels when the car is set up to handle well.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I dunno, a fwd extended minivan probably has better weight distribution than most fwd sports cars...

Put in a stiff rear sway bar and add some front camber and I bet it would be quite neutral at the limit!

Its too bad vans aren't allowed out on track days, as I'm sure alot of them with good drivers would make alot of sporty cars disappear in the rear view mirror...


Maybe, if it weren't for the shoulder high center of gravity on those things, the effect of which is amplified even more with stickier tires. (Probably why, in addition to the uber-long wheelbases, they are not allowed out on track days, or even most autocrosses.)

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
FWD does not need wheelspin to understeer! Neither does RWD require wheelspin to oversteer.


I'm not sure if this is a response to my post, so I'll just clarify that I said neither of those things!

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
But vehicle handling is pretty complex. I suggest you get a copy of Fred Puhn's "How to make your car handle" - and read up, rather than get your info from a bunch of internet "experts" - and I'm including myself in that category.


/EndBITOG

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: rpn453
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
FWD does not need wheelspin to understeer! Neither does RWD require wheelspin to oversteer.


I'm not sure if this is a response to my post, so I'll just clarify that I said neither of those things!


Nope, not specifically to anyone. Just trying to point out the exact same thing 440Magnum said... it's there all the time, no matter what. Doesn't just happen at the extreme limits of adhesion.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: rpn453
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
FWD does not need wheelspin to understeer! Neither does RWD require wheelspin to oversteer.


I'm not sure if this is a response to my post, so I'll just clarify that I said neither of those things!


Nope, not specifically to anyone. Just trying to point out the exact same thing 440Magnum said... it's there all the time, no matter what. Doesn't just happen at the extreme limits of adhesion.

But how much does 1 degree of tire deflection matter at normal speeds? And even a front heavy rwd car will have the same slight understeer in the same corner as a similar fwd car.
Not that my Tracker is the pinnacle of rwd handling, but its lighter and has better weight distribution than most rwd vehicles, and for normal driving I don't notice more or less understeer than my Neon or anything else. Its only when I'm hard on the gas near the limits that I can feel a real difference between fwd and rwd.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Not that my Tracker is the pinnacle of rwd handling, but its lighter and has better weight distribution than most rwd vehicles, and for normal driving I don't notice more or less understeer than my Neon or anything else.


Before the Consumer Reports hatchet job on the Suzuki Samurai, I remember one magazine comparing the Samurai to an MG in more than just engine output.

Of course, when your front and back tires are only 2 feet apart, it might be hard to differentiate which end is slipping.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Nope, not specifically to anyone. Just trying to point out the exact same thing 440Magnum said... it's there all the time, no matter what. Doesn't just happen at the extreme limits of adhesion.


I suppose I may have implied otherwise because, until Capriracer's post, I never considered anything below actual loss of some tire grip to be understeer. I was very surprised to read that the effects of tire flex can be called understeer, though it certainly does affect the car's behavior in transitions and that's obvious at every seasonal tire change and especially when mixing different tires between the axles or when one of the tires is losing air due to a puncture. Also, I only ever considered an increased slip angle of the front tires relative to the rear to be an indication of impending understeer in the event of increased speed or steering angle. It can definitely be felt every time you take a corner without someone in front, but I didn't think it was enough to be termed understeer at that point.

On that note, I'll try to keep myself out of these general vehicle handling discussions in the future, but I can't promise anything.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Not that my Tracker is the pinnacle of rwd handling, but its lighter and has better weight distribution than most rwd vehicles, and for normal driving I don't notice more or less understeer than my Neon or anything else.


Before the Consumer Reports hatchet job on the Suzuki Samurai, I remember one magazine comparing the Samurai to an MG in more than just engine output.

Of course, when your front and back tires are only 2 feet apart, it might be hard to differentiate which end is slipping.

Oh, its not hard to tell which end is slipping! The rapid change in view out the windshield gives it away... It's hard to keep up on the steering wheel sometimes though, but the Tracker has lots of lock! (My driveway has a giant S-bend so in the winter I play Initial D on it, which I admit is much more fun with rwd than fwd...)

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: rpn453


I suppose I may have implied otherwise because, until Capriracer's post, I never considered anything below actual loss of some tire grip to be understeer.


What do you consider "loss of grip"? Any slip angle, even a small one, is "loss of grip" and can be felt as pushing or understeer. You don't need to be turning heads in a 10 second howling, smoking squeal to say you're experiencing understeer.

It doesn't take me too much speed or drama to clearly experience understeer at everyday urban speeds - with winter tires mounted anyways. With my PS2s on it takes considerably more drama but the car is nearly neutral when equipped for summer.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: rpn453
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
And in my first post, I definitely let my personal dislike for FWD handling make my comments a bit more extreme than necessary . . .


Yeah, I didn't really think you needed any explanation of anything, but I definitely detected the distaste for FWD. C'mon, give it some credit for its practical benefits in terms of cost, weight, packaging efficiency,



I do, and that's why there's a PT Cruiser (wife's) in my .sig There's not much that can beat that thing in terms of interior and cargo area flexibility or efficiency of driveline packaging (serviceability is entirely another matter....)

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
What do you consider "loss of grip"? Any slip angle, even a small one, is "loss of grip" and can be felt as pushing or understeer. You don't need to be turning heads in a 10 second howling, smoking squeal to say you're experiencing understeer.


Apparently not. I don't know the correct terminology or definitions of these concepts. The "loss of grip" referred to how the rate of slip seems to increase at a certain point where the tires have nothing more to give. At that point, the front tire is obviously sliding too much because any increase in speed or steering angle dramatically increases how much it slips. I assumed that's the third type of understeer, and I used the term grip because I interpreted Capriracer's post as saying that this is where grip comes into play.

 

[rpn453]

I'll add that I'm not arguing that minor slippage isn't understeer. Nor am I arguing that it isn't easily felt. I'm just saying that, in the past, I've used the term exclusively for the type of understeer that occurs when the limit of the tire's grip is exceeded.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: rpn453
I'll add that I'm not arguing that minor slippage isn't understeer. Nor am I arguing that it isn't easily felt. I'm just saying that, in the past, I've used the term exclusively for the type of understeer that occurs when the limit of the tire's grip is exceeded.


Ah, gotcha. I don't think that's how a lot of the rest of us are defining understeer