BMW Z3 consequences’ of improper coolant!!

[Ducati996]

I'm a motor head and have worked at dealerships servicing MB, BMW, Peugeot, Fiat, Volvo, Honda & Saabs.
Left the auto repair business in 1979 to work at General Electric in engineering on the development and testing of the hydro mechanical transmission used in the US Armies Bradley Fighting Vehicle System.
I was eventually in charge of transmission testing and data review in our 4 test cells powered by 903 Cummins engines ranging from 500 to 700hp.

We also tested compatibility and performance of M1 15w50, Delvac1 5w40 and other oils with amazing results which is why I use synthetics in all vehicles & equipment. If there is interest I can share my/our experience at a later time.

I have Dodge diesel pickups, Jeeps, a Ford 1720 compact diesel tractor and a 2000 BMW Z3 with a 2.5 6cyl. And numerous other gasoline & diesel powered stuff.
Also aware that diesels require special additives to prevent liner pitting.
I'm quite knowledgeable in lubricants & applications however coolants are a mystery to me.

I provided my background/experience only to say I'm not a new comer to the auto repair industry.
Being on BITOG has raised a lot of questions about coolant and applications.
It used to be coolant was coolant, it cooled, prevented corrosion and prevented boil over & freezing.
Not so any more!
I have tried to find answers on the web but there is no application compatibility/reaction chart that I know of.
There is one for grease but not coolant.

Question? What is the proper coolant for my Z3 and what are the adverse effects of the wrong coolant or mixing in any application, particularly my Z3????
I’ve also seen threads on Death-cool! Please enlighten me.
The world is not a simple place anymore!!

I’m looking for facts/experience not opinions.

Thanks Tim

 

[Hethaerto]

Evans Cooling Systems

 

[saaber1]

Ducati, you have an interesting background. Regarding saabs in particular, do you recall seeing quite a few head gasket jobs? What about water pumps?

I ask because of the "trolhatten saab" website where a long time saab mechanic said he saw headgasket jobs go to zero when switching form the old pohsphate-containing green coolant to the mercedes "anti-corosion fluid". MB coolant is basically g-05 as I understand it.

I have been using g-12 in recent VW, Porsche, BMW cars and now I just use g12 in everything (after ensuring every last drop of the existing coolant is flushed out first of course.

I think the most important thing is that you are using a good coolant (not the antiquated phsophate stuff) and that whatever you use you thouroughly flush the block, radiator, lines etc. so there is zero mixing. For my boxster S I think I flushed it 11 times with water (fill, idle, drain) before it finally ran perfectly clear. I use g-12 in everything now but g-05 is probably just as good I would guess.

 

[Jim 5]

Your Z3 likely requires G48 Glystantin (manufacturerd by BASF IIRC)...especially if it's blue.

My 2002 BMW 330ci used it as well. It's available at the BMW dealer for marginal extra cost compared to parts-store alternatives (given that the replacement frequency is relatively long). I have also heard this fluid can be obtained at Saab dealerships if you know what to ask for.

I do not have an informed view, however given than many european manufacturers including MB are using G-05, I'd probably use that as my second choice after flushing fully. My laziness in performing full system flushes is the reason why I typically use the OEM fluid with just a drain (block, radiator and reservoir) and refill.

 

[crw]

I'm going to take a "non-BITOGer" type of view and ask if you can prove me wrong.

I have a Jetta from 2001. In the manual it says you must use blah-blah, some specialty elixer especially prepared deep within Germany. Get ready to special order and pay big bucks. But remember, this was written in 2001.

Then, in 2009 I walk into any Checker or Autozone or where-ever, and see regular Prestone with a bottle that says "ALL MAKES, ALL MODELS!" printed boldly across the front. Would not Prestone be setting themselves up for disaster if this wasn't true and they were sued? Formulas change. Time marches on.

My Jetta is using that Prestone now for more than a year and there is nothing wrong with it. I'm sure that some of you will add, "Nothing wrong with it, yet."

Oh well, I'm sure if I had a Z3 I'd want to be pretty dang sure that I was doing the right thing.

 

[Ducati996]

saaber1
The dealership had 2 SAAB mechanics prior to my arrival so I didn't get into the engines except to adj valve's & other maintenance such as brakes & such. My most vivid recollection is the inboard front disks and a ridiculous price for brake pads which were sold as 2 part numbers. The inner pads were sold separately from the outers.
I don't remember any particular problems with Saab head gaskets.
In my Peugeot years the 505 diesel had a common problem of getting oil into the coolant and as I recall required an antifreeze packaged in 1qt cans that came out in globs.
Did a lot of work that contained new head gaskets & sleeve seals. That was in the mid to late seventies.

Tim

 

[mechanicx]

As was mention the MB probably used G-48 originally. I would have to have the approval specification for the vehicle to be sure. If you want the exact same coolant you would have to go to the dealer and they should carry it. G-05 is very close to G-48 and is fairly readily available in the aftermarket. Both are silicated hybrid coolants.

So that's my recommendation the dealer coolant or G-05.

Truth is you could run traditional Green but you would need to change it more frequently. You could even run one of the OATs like Prestone all makes or peak global, and they would probably protect against corrosion very well but no one can really guarantee your vehicles gaskets are resilent to OATs over the long run.

 

[Ducati996]

I agree that using the recommended coolant is the safe way to go.

But to keep on the topic my other question was, what are the adverse effects of using coolants other than those recommended by the manufacture or mixing coolant types?

 

[mechanicx]

Well coolant inhibitors that are of the organic acid technolgy type can be more agressive and can degrade certain polymers used in gaskets, and rubber and plastic parts. This is the main issue. Most of the newer longer life coolants have OAT. you have no guarantee that an OAT coolant is compatible long term with seals if it has not been verified for the car.

Also many believe that OATs like 2EHA in Dexcool does not tolerate air in the cooling system, so it's best to have a pressurized reservior that constantly bleeds the air.
Japanese coolant use a hybrid OAT coolant with different OAT, sebacate, and phosphate that probably takes up the slack where OATs lack. Japanese believe silicates are hard on the water pump seals, but there's not a lot of proof and most coolant are low silicate formula now.

European coolant like Mercedes G-05 and G-48 are also hybrid with silicates and benzoate as the OAT but it is not considered to be as hard on plastics as other OATs. and previous coolants had benzoate and weren't considered hybrid. European coolant usually doesn't have phosphate, because they have hard water there and they are overly cautious from problems before using scale inhibitors that make hard water not so much an issue unles it's very hard water which shouldn't be used anyway.

As far as mixing coolant types, they are generally compatible but it is a bad idea to mix inhibitor types. You end up with an ineffective amount of each inhibitor package. They work best as a complete package at ~45-55% concentrate.

 

[LarryR]

I would highly recommend using the BMW coolant. I don't have data on hand to back this up, but it is my understanding that the BMW stuff helps prevent the coolant tank and radiator failures BMW's are often known for(at around the 100k mark).

 

[Zedhed]

I have a Benz, and G-05 is my horse.....

 

[Craig in Canada]

From everything I've read, BMW OE coolant is G-48. If you can get that cheaper than BMW OE, go for it.

G-05 is "very close" to G-48 but not identical. It was very difficult to find out what the differences are, but there was a PDF posted here, I believe, at one time which indicated "plastic compatibility" to be a specific place where G-48 differed from G-05.

Considering all of the plastic in most BMW cooling systems since the 90s, and the fact that the change interval is 3 years and the price difference from G-05 to G-48 amortized over that three years is close to nothing, I'd go with G-48/OE. As someone already mentioned, G-05 is a good second choice.

Oh yes - don't put Redline WaterWetter in G-48.

 

[mechanicx]

G-05 and G-48 are both HOATs, silicates. G-05 use benzoate as the OAT and nitrite. I remembered G-48 is silicated but does not contain nitrite and assumed the OAT was benzoate as well, but it looks like G-48 uses 2-EHA.

 

[djb]

BMW doesn't have any special coolant magic. Rather the opposite.

BMW changed to composite ("plastic") water pump impellers a little over a decade ago. These failed, with the failure having strong correlation to hours of engine use rather than age or other conditions. It appears that the failures were related to the additives in the BMW coolant.

There were two notable failure modes. If a asymmetrical chunk of the impeller breaks off, the imbalance might destroy the bearing. If the impeller spins on the shaft, or the remaining parts are balanced enough, the engine destructively overheats with little or no warning. This is compounded by a software-controlled gauge that stays centered until after an overheat condition.

BMW switched to metal impellers while they sorted out the problem. However these had a high failure rate as well. The heavier, less consistently balanced impellers caused the pump bearing (designed for the lighter, precisely molded composite impeller) to fail.

With both type, the water pump bearing failures were a disaster on the Z3. The mechanical fan, connected to the water pump shaft, would hit the fan shroud or radiator, break a few fan blades, and then put a big dent into the form-fitting Z3 hood. Which, incidentally, is the largest single piece body stamping ever in a production car. And priced to match.

This same problem occurred on other BMW models, however they were more likely to contain the fan blades on a failure. But you'll find many stories about warped heads caused by impeller failures.

Back to the original question. I long ago switched to using Peak Global Lifetime in my Z3 and have seen no corrosion or plastic degradation issues. I did a through flush when changing over, but just replace the drained coolant with pre-mix after any service.

 

[mechanicx]

Yeah turns out G-48 is silicated 2EHA. Might as well run whatever you want PGL, dexclone, or G-05. None of them could be any worse than G-48.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: Ducati996
Question? What is the proper coolant for my Z3 and what are the adverse effects of the wrong coolant or mixing in any application, particularly my Z3????


First, the BMW factory fill was Glysantin G-48.

Glysantin G-48 is a hybrid organic acid coolant, which is also nitrite-free, with a low dose of silicates.

Nitrite is an anti-cavitation ingredient added to a coolant for use in diesels.

http://www.veredlungschemikalien.basf.de/ev-wcms-in/internet/en_GB/function/conversions:/publish/content/EV/EV3/glysantin/doc/Glysantin_Werkstatt_PKW.pdf

G-48 is sold in the US by Zerex, but not at retail.

A close relative is G-05, which is used by Chrysler, Mercedes, and Ford. It also sold by Zerex.

G-05 is a HOAT (hybrid organic acid technology) coolant uses an organic acid, a low dose of silicates, and is nitrited.

Silicate allows it to recover rapidly from low coolant situations.

G-05, however, is not as environmentally friendly as G-48. That comes about because of the nitrite and the organic acid used.

The major problem with an "all brands" OAT coolant is that it lack proper protection against cavitation.

In general "all makes, all models" coolants are not the universal panacea suggested.

http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/3061...l_coolants.aspx

Both Ford and Chrysler have tested these coolants and found they have the potential to cause severe damage in some engines under some conditions.

Zerex is BASF's licensee in the US.

It recommends G-05 for BMWs.

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/Zerex_CoolantChart.pdf

BASF in Europe recommends G-48 for BMWs.

So, I would go with G-05, also available at Ford and Chrysler dealers, or G-48,

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
As was mention the MB probably used G-48 originally.


At least not back to the mid-1970s. w123 cars have used the G-05 chemistry, so that dates it back in onw form or another to roughly 1977 at least, it seems.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada

Oh yes - don't put Redline WaterWetter in G-48.


And please remind me why that is????

 

[mechanicx]

I meant to say the late model BMWs use G-48 not M-B. I don't know when G-48 came out but I'd guess in the mid 90's. I'm not sure why but Glysantin specs 2EHA containing G-48 back to the 70's. I don't think G-48 was around then.

 

[Jim 5]

Great informative discussion! This is what BITOG is about.