ZDDP- Bad for aluminum engines?

[buster]

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20050314/motoroil.html

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Despite its environmental problems, ZDDP works. What do not work, according to the researchers, are lubricants with high concentrations of calcium phosphates. Those chemicals reduce connectivity on the atomic level, which means a weaker film forms that can lead to wear on the steel engine.

Now there is another challenge. Scientists are trying to find an oil additive that will work with an aluminum engine. Manufacturers have their eyes on aluminum because it is lighter and improves fuel efficiency, according to Müser's colleague Tom Woo, also one of the study's authors.

Woo told Discovery News that ZDDP is not a good match for an aluminum engine. He explained, "The pad, or films, become harder than the aluminum surface itself. Thus, abrasion will occur."

Mark Robbins, an expert on friction who is a professor in the Department of Physics and Astronomy at Johns Hopkins University, was surprised to learn that pressure, and not temperature, is all that is needed for ZDDP to form its protective films. He suggested that information from the study might help others to create new lubricants in future.

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[sully]

Interesting article, Fuchs is ahead of the game here. Their Titan 0W20 line has no ZDDP. More emphasis on base stocks for protection and less on certain additives may be the smarter approach. But then again there are alot of aluminum engines on the road today with excess of 150,000 miles that are still going strong. Kinda makes you wonder if the theory this article presents holds water.

 

[goodvibes]

I'm no mechanic but does the aluminium block or head actually get used in a friction/load area where the harder ZDDP would be an issue. I know that the cylinders in my motor are hard ceramic impregnated and other aluminium blocks have a similar treatment or are sleeved. Aren't lead based bearings softer than aluminium and subject to even more of the same issues described above? Aluminium has been used in motors for a long time yet we seldom see high AL counts in UOAs, even with high Zn oils.

 

[TooSlick]

Try using an oil with too low a ZDP level and let me know how long that nicely engineered, chain driven, V-Tec valve train in your new Honda lasts.

Tooslick

 

[Islander]

Do any of the most popular engine oils not have ZDDP?

 

[TallPaul]

The quote also says high concentrations of calcium phosphate are bad for steel engines (do they mean iron?), producing a weaker film formation. Very interesting in light of the high calcium levels found in some high mileage oils (Maxlife for example). But I think this is talking about when the calcuim is way out of balance and, hopefully, not the case with fully formulated oils, even if they have a boatload of calcium, as they should have been designed to avoid such a problem.

[ May 21, 2005, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: TallPaul ]

 

[TallPaul]

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Originally posted by Islander:
Do any of the most popular engine oils not have ZDDP?

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Maybe. Convenience store SA oil seems to be somewhat popular with a lot of uninformed folks.

 

[buster]

Fuchs is cutting edge for sure. Whether you like or dislike ZDDP, one thing for sure, it's going away across the board and new additives are taking it's place. I'd rather have an oil with a higher dose personally, only bc many of the new additives seem to be so new that we really don't know how well they are going to be.

 

[TallPaul]

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Originally posted by buster:
...only bc many of the new additives seem to be so new that we really don't know how well they are going to be.

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Yeah and since David McFall writes in the May 2005 Lubes & Greases (p 8, bold my emphasis):

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...[ZDDP], the most effective , well-known and cost-effective antioxidant and antiwear agent available.

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As it is, ZDDP levels were already pretty low in the SL oils. I think when my 5-year SL stash runs out I will switch to HDMO which by then will have had the additives reduced so much that it may be only little better than SL PCMO.

 

[1sttruck]

Aluminum oxide forms on aluminum surfaces, which is much harder than the surface itself :^) One needs care in selecting the type of aluminum if corrosion is an issue.

 

[pscholte]

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Originally posted by goodvibes:
Warranties not withstanding, there's always products like Amsoil and Red Line that will probably continue on with high amounts of proven adds like ZDDP, They do however cost a premium.

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g.v.,

Obviously, with Redline and Amsoil our engines aren't gonna die because they are sticking with historical formulations...what may die are pollution control system parts (like cats) and there is where the warranty system will come into effect. Some may feel, and logically so--$300 cat or $5000 engine?...no brainer--but we may have adherence imposed upon us that goes beyond the costs of violating a warranty.

 

[goodvibes]

No question but if your engine doesn't consume much oil than it's not a problem until (if) that mandate comes along. If an oil has twice as much Phosphorus in a Toyota that uses 1/4 qt in 4k MIs, it's still half the problem that you would encounter with 1/2 the Ph with a Porshe/Audi/BMW (not a slam)that uses a quart in the same period. This issue could be somewhat handled by design philosophy to better control oil usage instead of building it in but obviously tolerances will eventually widen with wear in that Toyota and consumptiom will rise.

[ May 21, 2005, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: goodvibes ]

 

[pscholte]

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Originally posted by goodvibes:
No question but if your engine doesn't consume much oil than it's not a problem until (if) that mandate comes along. If an oil has twice as much Phosphorus in a Toyota that uses 1/4 qt in 4k MIs, it's still half the problem that you would encounter with 1/2 the Ph with a Porshe/Audi/BMW (not a slam)that uses a quart in the same period. This issue could be somewhat handled by design philosophy to better control oil usage instead of building it in but obviously tolerances will eventually widen with wear in that Toyota and consumptiom will rise.

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You make very good points.

 

[MolaKule]

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The researchers determined, through quantum chemical simulations, that pressure within an engine, and not heat, causes changes to occur within ZDDP. When first subjected to pressure, ZDDP has a somewhat disconnected state, where its chemical bonds are loosely arranged. As pressure builds, atoms form cross-linked, tight bonds.

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This is what I have been saying in various threads when I said certain AW additives turn into a "plastic" film under high pressures. Boron is the only one that does not, rather, it forms flat plates of smooth and slick interfaces.

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Mark Robbins, an expert on friction who is a professor in the Department of Physics and Astronomy at Johns Hopkins University, was surprised to learn that pressure, and not temperature, is all that is needed for ZDDP to form its protective films . He suggested that information from the study might help others to create new lubricants in future.

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Well, all he had to do was research the journals of Wear , Lubrication Engineering , SAE Journal of Fuels and Lubricants , Journal of Tribiology, and the Journal of Synthetic Lubricants to learn that research on ZDDP, moly, and other AW additives was done over 30 years ago and those authors arrived at the same conclusion. And they did it without Quantum Mechanical simulations, but then again, QM sounds important and technical.

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Now there is another challenge. Scientists are trying to find an oil additive that will work with an aluminum engine. Manufacturers have their eyes on aluminum because it is lighter and improves fuel efficiency, according to Müser's colleague Tom Woo, also one of the study's authors.

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It's an additive that is called, "metal deactivator."

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000029

There are metal deactivators for copper, aluminum, etc. Metal deactivators for iron are generally called, "rust inhibitors."

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000025

 

[JohnBrowning]

Once again speculative simulated science has gotten too far away from actualy real world experince! We have plenty of UOA of all aluminum engines that show no signs of ZDDP and aluminum being an issue. Iron and copper are two most prevalant wear metals in most applications.

If your engine is not fueled by di-lithium crystals and you do not have a Tech. named Scoty or Jordy working on your engine then ZDDP is still your #1 friend!

ZDDP is a proven performer. IT might not be the best but it is proven and cheap! It would take a lot of Boron,Moly,Tungsten,Cadium,etc... to take the place of 1500PPM of ZDDP and would cost a lot more. For what? They have yet to link ZDDP to catalytic converter failure. In order to even get the test to work they had to use an oil that was insanely volitile. The oil has to burn off at an alarming rate to get the zink into the cat in the form of a vapor! ZDDP is not just going to jump out of solution and find the nearest presious metal to bound to. Remember to idealy bond it needs pressure and heat or just presure. Heat alone is a poor way to get ZDDP to stick to a precious metal.

If you are loseing enough oil to carry that much ZDDP into a cat to coat the insides how much of the oil is coating the sides of the cat and forming soot? Yet we do not hear them talking about oil it's self being bad for cat.'s!

 

[T-Keith]

They make it sounds like auto makers are still thinking about implementing alumnium. Nearly all engines made today have one or all major components made in alumnium. Aluminum blocks and heads have been used in automotive engines for over 50 years.

-T

 

[pscholte]

I really believe this is a time in the oil fanatic's life when we are going to have to trust the oil company chemists. Quite probably in the past, what many of us, particularly the chemists and tribologists in our midst, had learned about engine oil served to make us properly wary of "oil experiments" (like ARCO Graphite); it is clear that, for reasons beyond our control (like environmental issues), radical changes in approach are being required that will necessitate we relearn the new combinations and formulations that actually do work. It is going to be a tough time for our members who expect to get the formulas they are used to because we apparently are not going to be offered a choice...outside forces are forcing oil companies' hands. It pretty much leaves two choices: (1) stock up on a lifetime's worth of current formulations, formulations that may not be acceptable for future warranty requirements or (2) accept this is the way it is and find those oil companies that find the right combination in this "new world" and go with them.

 

[LarryL]

...or check with China and see what they have planned for our oil.

 

[goodvibes]

Warranties not withstanding, there's always products like Amsoil and Red Line that will probably continue on with high amounts of proven adds like ZDDP, They do however cost a premium.