Questions for the “only oils with approvals!” crowd- API vs good oil engineering

[SubieRubyRoo]

Can’t believe we’ve kinda glossed over these details… in the past week we saw a valve train pic of an 80k mile engine that’s had synthetic API approved oils according to OLM that is heavily varnished, and we’ve also seen a 170k engine that’s had only 2 oil changes over the past 53k and it is essentially hot-tank clean inside while using an oil with no approvals.

I thought this would have generated more discussion, since this board’s goal is to help members choose correct oils to better protect their machines! Pics are below; 80k Trax on the left looks like it’s bathed in Werther’s caramel, and the 170k Dodge (!) is almost spotless. (And this is not a knock on the Trax owner who simply took API & Big 3 oils at their face value.)

I’d love to hear somebody explain how @High Performance Lubricants is the bad guy here for not chasing API approvals. If Trax OLM is 10k and $35 per oil change, and @wwillson is at 24-30k or beyond at ~$70 per oil change, how does using API oils make any sense?

 

[ripcord]

Because, science!

Actually, how else can the average lay person without access to laboratories and expensive test equipment know what it "good" or "bad" other than trusting an established, reputable third party? How will you determine whether or not "good engineering" actually took place in the formulation of a particular PCMO?

 

[buster]

It really depends on the approved oil you're talking about. Many approved top tier oils trounce some of the toughest industry standard tests.

Most people also use the cheapest approved oil they can find or dealer bulk oil.

HPL, Amsoil SS, Red Line are all top-notch products. Some are concerned while being under warranty and therefore wait until warranty is over before moving to one of the higher tier oils.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

HPL, Amsoil SS, Red Line are all top-notch products. Some are concerned while being under warranty and therefore wait until warranty is over before moving to one of the higher tier oils.

Agree… but doesn’t M-M Act allegedly protect the consumer? Besides, if you read the actual wording of OM, as @kschachn points out repeatedly… they “recommend” an API cert, and M-M says they have to prove it caused the failure.

I get (and did myself in the past) wait for warranty, but say the Trax owner had a 100k extended warranty- is the engine going to be worth trying to save if it’s that bad now plus another 20%??

 

[4WD]

^him^
we have a member with 40 years all good and one with many 200-400k vehicles without boutiques …

did we need another HPL thread

 

[racer12306]

Because, science!

Actually, how else can the average lay person without access to laboratories and expensive test equipment know what it "good" or "bad" other than trusting an established, reputable third party? How will you determine whether or not "good engineering" actually took place in the formulation of a particular PCMO?

This is really the answer. You have to instill trust in something, generally that trust is instilled in a certification, regardless of the topic. I.e. oil, electronics, etc, etc. It just so happens that in the electrical world, certifications tend to get more strict (used to work for an OSHA NRTL) and oil certifications are moving to accommodate other things, such as emissions or fuel economy, even though it may not be "the best" for wear protection. Will a modern API oil allow an engine to outlive the rest of the vehicle? Almost certainly.

Agree… but doesn’t M-M Act allegedly protect the consumer? Besides, if you read the actual wording of OM, as @kschachn points out repeatedly… they “recommend” an API cert, and M-M says they have to prove it caused the failure.

I get (and did myself in the past) wait for warranty, but say the Trax owner had a 100k extended warranty- is the engine going to be worth trying to save if it’s that bad now plus another 20%??

I don't think it's a big jump from didn't use an oil that met our specifications to a failed. Chrysler isn't saying you need to use Chrysler oil, they're saying you need to use an oil that meets MS-6395, etc. In the end, my main question is...

Is it worth the risk? In my opinion, no, it's not. Is it likely to happen with a top quality oil like HPL or Amsoil, no, but is it worth the risk of having to handle a $10,000 bill for a new engine? If HPL cleans so much, it can take care of the mess an API may leave after the warranty is up.

did we need another HPL thread

More HPL threads moar betterer.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Because, science!

Actually, how else can the average lay person without access to laboratories and expensive test equipment know what it "good" or "bad" other than trusting an established, reputable third party? How will you determine whether or not "good engineering" actually took place in the formulation of a particular PCMO?

There’s plenty of scientific documentation here on the board and provided from some board members and sponsors to educate the consumer.

You’re not going to buy Wolf’s Head if you’re intending on keeping a car 20 years and 400k… but you may if you pick Amsoil, Redline, or HPL. PQIA is another source, but also it has been pointed out that VOAs are not an indicator of how an oil will perform.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

did we need another HPL thread

It’s not just an HPL thread, I’ve used Amsoil and Redline as well along with older photo evidence other members have provided.

Heck, if anything, it’s a call to API to raise their standards and get oils that actually benefit the consumer rather than just delay their engines’ demise!

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

I would imagine there are plenty of pretty clean engines run solely on API synthetic oils as well. One example isn't a trend.

 

[MSCH]

2 unqualified examples are unworthy of a participating in a circular firing squad.
I'd also venture to say that if someone would take those engines apart and measure the tolerances they might find there is no appreciable wear in either.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Can’t believe we’ve kinda glossed over these details… in the past week we saw a valve train pic of an 80k mile engine that’s had synthetic API approved oils according to OLM that is heavily varnished, and we’ve also seen a 170k engine that’s had only 2 oil changes over the past 53k and it is essentially hot-tank clean inside while using an oil with no approvals.

I thought this would have generated more discussion, since this board’s goal is to help members choose correct oils to better protect their machines! Pics are below; 80k Trax on the left looks like it’s bathed in Werther’s caramel, and the 170k Dodge (!) is almost spotless. (And this is not a knock on the Trax owner who simply took API & Big 3 oils at their face value.)

I’d love to hear somebody explain how @High Performance Lubricants is the bad guy here for not chasing API approvals. If Trax OLM is 10k and $35 per oil change, and @wwillson is at 24-30k or beyond at ~$70 per oil change, how does using API oils make any sense?

A couple of things.

People like to work on their cars. If doing more frequent oil changes gives them piece of mind then low cost and "Good enough" are a priority and this is on top of that fact that they obtain great results.

In addition the most reliable automakers suggest more frequent oil changes whereas historically less reliable brands recommended longer intervals. This is on top of the fact that long intervals are sometimes considered to be part of "planned obsolescence". Basically the intent of long intervals is to make your engine wear out sooner so you have to buy a new car. Comments about not having API is just making an excuse to justify the more frequent oil change behavior.

 

[DirectRejection]

Can’t believe we’ve kinda glossed over these details… in the past week we saw a valve train pic of an 80k mile engine that’s had synthetic API approved oils according to OLM that is heavily varnished, and we’ve also seen a 170k engine that’s had only 2 oil changes over the past 53k and it is essentially hot-tank clean inside while using an oil with no approvals.

I thought this would have generated more discussion, since this board’s goal is to help members choose correct oils to better protect their machines! Pics are below; 80k Trax on the left looks like it’s bathed in Werther’s caramel, and the 170k Dodge (!) is almost spotless. (And this is not a knock on the Trax owner who simply took API & Big 3 oils at their face value.)

I’d love to hear somebody explain how @High Performance Lubricants is the bad guy here for not chasing API approvals. If Trax OLM is 10k and $35 per oil change, and @wwillson is at 24-30k or beyond at ~$70 per oil change, how does using API oils make any sense?

There ought to be a decrease in HPL threads, especially the ones designed to create doubts, with passive-aggressive thread titles.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

. This is on top of the fact that long intervals are sometimes considered to be part of "planned obsolescence". Basically the intent of long intervals is to make your engine wear out sooner so you have to buy a new car.

So you think wwillson is planning obsolescence and wearing out his brand new Duramax, and on purpose? Wow.

And BTW I’m not condoning ANY non-certified oils, just the ones proven to go above and beyond API standards, and even higher than some of the Euro certs.

 

[Jetronic]

Can’t believe we’ve kinda glossed over these details… in the past week we saw a valve train pic of an 80k mile engine that’s had synthetic API approved oils according to OLM that is heavily varnished, and we’ve also seen a 170k engine that’s had only 2 oil changes over the past 53k and it is essentially hot-tank clean inside while using an oil with no approvals.

I thought this would have generated more discussion, since this board’s goal is to help members choose correct oils to better protect their machines! Pics are below; 80k Trax on the left looks like it’s bathed in Werther’s caramel, and the 170k Dodge (!) is almost spotless. (And this is not a knock on the Trax owner who simply took API & Big 3 oils at their face value.)

I’d love to hear somebody explain how @High Performance Lubricants is the bad guy here for not chasing API approvals. If Trax OLM is 10k and $35 per oil change, and @wwillson is at 24-30k or beyond at ~$70 per oil change, how does using API oils make any sense?

I missed this but... I'm not in the "only the recommended spec oil is good" crowd...

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

So you think wwillson is planning obsolescence and wearing out his brand new Duramax, and on purpose? Wow.

And BTW I’m not condoning ANY non-certified oils, just the ones proven to go above and beyond API standards, and even higher than some of the Euro certs.

I'm saying some think that way. For example we always see posts from individuals who question the OLM for their vehicle. Typically followed up with comments suggesting automakers are only concerned with low cost of ownership etc.

On an aside I had the shop foreman of an Euro Indy shop say that unless I performed 5k mile OCI on my BMW from the beginning I was guaranteed to have VANOS/Valvtronic problems because BMW doesn't engineer their cars to be reliable over 100k miles.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I think some of you are letting emotions get in the way of the discussion I was seeking. Let me clarify, and this has nothing to do directly with HPL than it does with the oils used in the Trax.

The jist: the Trax used tested, approved oils and looks junkyard-ready IMO. Why would API standards be so low that these results are “acceptable”, when the smaller vendors use better, readily available components FROM THE OIL COMPANIES WHO SELL API OILS but don’t use them?

To me, having “standards” that allow that level of varnish is the way to planned obsolescence, not the longer-interval oil that keeps things spotless… regardless of who makes it.

 

[tcp71]

Because outside of this loony bin, people need a basic certification mark to know that the oil they are buying is functional. Plenty of off brand bottles have graced these pages that were crap (according to the tests from PQIA).

 

[MSCH]

you cant judge a book by it's cover... now if someone disassembles the engines and measures the wearing parts( and to be really accurate they'd need to do it on a new engine and then the used engines) would be far more objective than a comparison based on color choices.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I think some of you are letting emotions get in the way of the discussion I was seeking. Let me clarify, and this has nothing to do directly with HPL than it does with the oils used in the Trax.

The jist: the Trax used tested, approved oils and looks junkyard-ready IMO. Why would API standards be so low that these results are “acceptable”, when the smaller vendors use better, readily available components FROM THE OIL COMPANIES WHO SELL API OILS but don’t use them?

To me, having “standards” that allow that level of varnish is the way to planned obsolescence, not the longer-interval oil that keeps things spotless… regardless of who makes it.

We've seen worse on engines with double the mileage or more. It may not look pretty but it's still running and that's all that matters for most.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Because outside of this loony bin, people need a basic certification mark to know that the oil they are buying is functional. Plenty of off brand bottles have graced these pages that were crap (according to the tests from PQIA).

That doesn’t mean anything. There’s plenty of oils on PQIA that illegitimately carried API starburst that didn’t come anywhere near to meeting the standards.

But again, a VOA does not determine how an oil will perform. At best it tells you if the oil exceeds the min or max for certain additives, the viscosity, and the TBN.