Wind turbines shut down when needed most..

[OVERKILL]

STP has NRC approval to go from 2 to 4 reactors with current cooling. The major cities that get this power need to pony up - what about these big cities ? Don’t want it ? Won’t fight for funding ?

Yeah, there's no issue with STP for cooling, I think eddy is claiming the whole plant went down due to cooling water issues, which isn't what happened at all, heck, the unit itself didn't even go offline, just the turbine did.

 

[4WD]

Yeah, there's no issue with STP for cooling, I think eddy is claiming the whole plant went down due to cooling water issues, which isn't what happened at all, heck, the unit itself didn't even go offline, just the turbine did.

Another narrative driven - so called academic …

 

[edyvw]

What? The lowest nuclear capacity got in Texas was 75% (down 1 unit), and that was due to a sensor line freezing, causing the sensor to trip, because the lines are outside. There were no coolant issues. They unit was brought back as fast as it could be.

Ummm, no, they weren't. A significant portion of the wind turbines were shutdown because they lacked the cold weather package, but even if they had been properly equipped, the situation was similar to Alberta where a cold front such as this rolls in and it brings with it cold, still air, so there isn't much wind to harvest. ERCOT was expecting this, that's why their Winter reliability assessment assumes very low output from wind (they had, at the time, like 28,000MW of installed wind capacity):
View attachment 198620

And here's how it performed:
View attachment 198621
So, for wind:
- Installed capacity was 28,755MW, anticipated output was 7,070MW. Average output was 3,153MW, minimum output hit was 649MW, 2.2% of nameplate.

For solar:
- Installed capacity was 4,898MW, anticipated output was 304MW. Average output was 805MW, minimum output was 0MW.

But would be of no help during this situation, particularly if you were expecting to heat with resistance heating.

My understanding is that grid collapsed with power plants getting out of system, which was winterization issue.
Wind and solar performed as expected was my point. Yesterday here was -4f but sunny. My solar performed as expected. Today is -11f but cloudy and windy (wind chill -38f) and they work as expected for that cloud coverage. Wind turbines few miles to the east are spinning as usual.
TX had issues bcs. Weakening regulations and attempt to get away with it. In business eyes it makes sense. However, regulations were dropped at cost of public. Their solar bump helps them of course in summer.
Point is, it is not “green” failure or whatever. Various sources contribute to to power supply. The front that is hitting TX now doesn’t have still air, it is actually moving, so that should not affect their wind power considering that their temperatures are not that low on grand scheme of things. It might drop to teens, but that should not be an issue whatsoever.
On that note, warming of Arctic is weakening jet stream and TX will see these sudden drop in temperatures in the future more often.

 

[edyvw]

Another narrative driven - so called academic …

I thought TX is leader in energy? We are not, but then we don’t have blackouts, ever.

 

[zzyzzx]

One of the first lessons any new engineering student learns in their materials class is “cold brittle behaviour” of materials. When it gets really cold, like -30 C or colder, many materials lose much of their strength and are prone to shattering. This applies to wind turbines as much as it applies to car bumpers.

Exactly what part of the wind turbines are prone to shattering at -30 C or colder, and can those affected parts be made of something else that can take the cold? Seems more like a design deficiency to me.

 

[4WD]

I thought TX is leader in energy? We are not, but then we don’t have blackouts, ever.

I know you are thinly disguising your red and blue narrative = but it’s morons in the big cities that have to get nukes working …
I’m in better shape than 90% on this board. Period …
And will never be all electric …

 

[edyvw]

I know you are thinly disguising your red and blue narrative = but it’s morons in the big cities that have to get nukes working …
I’m in better shape than 90% on this board. Period.
And will never be all electric - that’s your folks …

I am all up for nuclear.
However, TX blackout didn’t happen bcs. solar or wind. It happened bcs. weakening regulations, trying to maximize profit at any cost. Any cost being population needs.

 

[4WD]

I am all up for nuclear.
However, TX blackout didn’t happen bcs. solar or wind. It happened bcs. weakening regulations, trying to maximize profit at any cost. Any cost being population needs.

And people who accept all electric - which is still being pushed …
We grew up with open flame heat - all of my family lived 80’s and 90’s and one to to 99 …
Now it is big drama over a cooktop …

 

[OVERKILL]

My understanding is that grid collapsed with power plants getting out of system, which was winterization issue.

The rolling blackouts had nothing to do with STP, and there wasn't a cooling issue at STP, which was your claim. A sensor line for a pump feeding the turbine froze, which caused the turbine to trip offline. There was nothing wrong with the unit or its cooling.

Wind and solar performed as expected was my point.

Yes, they were expected to perform poorly, and they did, with wind performing more poorly than anticipated, while solar performed a bit better. Both were minor contributors to the supply mix because they were never expected to make up the bulk, despite the massive installed capacity of wind.

Just because it's expected doesn't mean we get to hand wave away the gravity of this problem however. If you experience an extreme weather event and you require a whole other system to deal with the electrical demands present during the event, that needs to be acknowledged and understood as additional complexity in the system.

Yesterday here was -4f but sunny. My solar performed as expected. Today is -11f but cloudy and windy (wind chill -38f) and they work as expected for that cloud coverage. Wind turbines few miles to the east are spinning as usual.
TX had issues bcs. Weakening regulations and attempt to get away with it. In business eyes it makes sense. However, regulations were dropped at cost of public. Their solar bump helps them of course in summer.

Can you specifically spell-out what regulation changes, and their impacts, resulted in the issues?

Point is, it is not “green” failure or whatever. Various sources contribute to to power supply. The front that is hitting TX now doesn’t have still air, it is actually moving, so that should not affect their wind power considering that their temperatures are not that low on grand scheme of things. It might drop to teens, but that should not be an issue whatsoever.
On that note, warming of Arctic is weakening jet stream and TX will see these sudden drop in temperatures in the future more often.

Yes, it's very easy to characterize it as a non-failure when you temper the expectations so that they specifically exclude the "green" sources from being major contributors to the supply mix under these circumstances, excepting them from being at fault when a failure to meet demand occurs.

The traditional stack of baseload + load following + peaker capacity has inherent reliability baked in because your baseload capacity doesn't cycle and your load following capacity runs regularly. Peakers run intermittently.

When you displace large portions of that stack with an intermittent resource, you increase cycling and fatigue, and this will increase O&M costs as well as frequency of outages, both planned and unplanned. This is why grids like Texas and in particular, Alberta, with relatively large amounts of wind integrated with gas and a massive reduction in baseload coal are having reliability issues during events that they would have likely weathered without issue in the past. It has always been cold in Alberta during the winter, that problem isn't new, so why is it that we are only just in the last 10 years or so, having supply issues? What changed?

 

[carviewsonic]

Exactly what part of the wind turbines are prone to shattering at -30 C or colder, and can those affected parts be made of something else that can take the cold? Seems more like a design deficiency to me.

Quoting Cujet's post from this thread: "The idea that components fail at cold temperatures is nonsense. -70ºF is a common operational temperature for aircraft."

Like everything else, the wind turbines are engineered with cost in mind. I believe that it's the blades which are most prone to damage from operating in extreme cold. There tends to be very little wind once the cold front settles in, but would some power generation from the wind farm be better than none at all?

 

[edyvw]

And people who accept all electric - which is still being pushed …
We grew up with open flame heat - all of my family lived 80’s and 90’s and one to to 99 …
Now it is big drama over a cooktop …

Yeah, I don’t think that is happening.
But electric cooktop with solar is much better ootion, simply from financial stand point.
I have gas cooktop with two gas ovens, and will replace for electric simply bcs. I have excessive electric production. Heck, I might go electric water heater, bump size, and add 2-4 more panels.

 

[OVERKILL]

Exactly what part of the wind turbines are prone to shattering at -30 C or colder, and can those affected parts be made of something else that can take the cold? Seems more like a design deficiency to me.

There may be a value issue in play. If it's not going to be windy when it's considerably below -30C, what's the point of spending more money if the unit isn't going to be generating meaningful output?

 

[4WD]

Yeah, I don’t think that is happening.
But electric cooktop with solar is much better ootion, simply from financial stand point.
I have gas cooktop with two gas ovens, and will replace for electric simply bcs. I have excessive electric production. Heck, I might go electric water heater, bump size, and add 2-4 more panels.

Prefer gas cooktop and dual electric ovens …
Gas has never once failed me …
Gas fireplace is backup heat …
(power is reliable too) …

 

[edyvw]

The rolling blackouts had nothing to do with STP, and there wasn't a cooling issue at STP, which was your claim. A sensor line for a pump feeding the turbine froze, which caused the turbine to trip offline. There was nothing wrong with the unit or its cooling.

Yes, they were expected to perform poorly, and they did, with wind performing more poorly than anticipated, while solar performing a bit better. Both were minor contributors to the supply mix because they were never expected to make up the bulk, despite the massive installed capacity of wind.

Just because it's expected doesn't mean we get to hand wave away the gravity of this problem however. If you experience an extreme weather event and you require a whole other system to deal with the electrical demands present during the event, that needs to be acknowledged and understood as additional complexity in the system.

Can you specifically spell-out what regulation changes, and their impacts, resulted in the issues?

Yes, it's very easy to characterize it as a non-failure when you temper the expectations so that they specifically exclude the "green" sources from being major contributors to the supply mix under these circumstances, excepting them from being at fault when a failure to meet demand occurs.

The traditional stack of baseload + load following + peaker capacity has inherent reliability baked in because your baseload capacity doesn't cycle and your load following capacity runs regularly. Peakers run intermittently.

When you displace large portions of that stack with an intermittent resource, you increase cycling and fatigue, and this will increase O&M costs as well as frequency of outages, both planned and unplanned. This is why grids like Texas and in particular, Alberta, with relatively large amounts of wind integrated with gas and a massive reduction in baseload coal are having reliability issues during events that they would have likely weathered without issue in the past. It has always been cold in Alberta during the winter, that problem isn't new, so why is it that we are only just in the last 10 years or so, having supply issues? What changed?

The weakening regulations are part of that market system in TX. I thought the issue behind TX market is being discussed long time ago, and chewed. TX doesn’t operate as other markets. The TX market as exists today is introduced in 2013 as my memory serves me, or around that time.
I mean:

Texas energy company says more power needed than the grid can supply — again

The Texas power grid operator is asking residents to conserve power Monday morning when a blast of cold weather is expected to bring temperatures well below freezing for much of the state.Parts of Texas will experience wind chills below 0 degrees, and some areas could see icy roads as...

www.rawstory.com

 

[edyvw]

Prefer gas cooktop and dual electric ovens …
Gas has never once failed me …
Gas fireplace is backup heat …
(power is reliable too) …

I have now one gas oven that is not working, failed burner.
If there is no electric power, there is no gas heating.
Other than that, in an emergency, portable gas cooktop will do it.
I am 10yrs in this house, it went through numerous blizzards, bomb cyclone with 117mph winds and windchill of -40 and 8ft snowdrift in driveway, and we never lost electricity or gas for that matter.
So, will not
Lose sleap over electric cooktop or oven.

 

[OVERKILL]

The weakening regulations are part of that market system in TX. I thought the issue behind TX market is being discussed long time ago, and chewed. TX doesn’t operate as other markets. The TX market as exists today is introduced in 2013 as my memory serves me, or around that time.
I mean:

Texas energy company says more power needed than the grid can supply — again

The Texas power grid operator is asking residents to conserve power Monday morning when a blast of cold weather is expected to bring temperatures well below freezing for much of the state.Parts of Texas will experience wind chills below 0 degrees, and some areas could see icy roads as...

www.rawstory.com

Alberta is getting those same alerts, and has been since around the same time.

What regulations were specifically weakened? And what do you think their effect was on the system?

What else happened in Texas over the last 10-15 years, that also happened in Alberta? I already gave you the answer in the post you quoted

 

[oil pan 4]

Yeah whatever I pay 11.2 cents. (Was 9 cents up to 3 years ago)

Our power was actually identical or slightly cheaper compared to Texas for 50 years, the very recent rise in prices has nothing to do with the standard and everything to do with bad regulatory body decisions (mandatory profits driving us to prematurely pay for decommissioning dozens of hydro dams and most of our nuclear)

The electric company makes money building unnecessary production and gets paid to decommission cheap power sources.

Our government eliminated our accountability board and obvious and logical outcomes are occurring

It's really weird how we have seen so many price increases with all these free/cheaper renewables.

 

[KrisZ]

I would also like to hear what exact regulation in Texas has caused the grid to be unreliable.
How about California? Do they also have "weakened" regulations causing their grid to be unreliable during severe weather?

Now Alberta joins the "unreliable grid" party. There is a pattern here and it is not regulations.

 

[edyvw]

Alberta is getting those same alerts, and has been since around the same time.

What regulations were specifically weakened? And what do you think their effect was on the system?

What else happened in Texas over the last 10-15 years, that also happened in Alberta? I already gave you the answer in the post you quoted

TX power suppliers knew the issue, but TX bcs. it is not regulated by Federal govt. can set up its own rules:

“Power companies get exactly what they want”: How Texas repeatedly failed to protect its power grid against extreme weather

Texas regulators and lawmakers knew about the grid’s vulnerabilities for years, but time and again they furthered the interests of large electricity providers.

www.texastribune.org

 

[edyvw]

I would also like to hear what exact regulation in Texas has caused the grid to be unreliable.
How about California? Do they also have "weakened" regulations causing their grid to be unreliable during severe weather?

Now Alberta joins the "unreliable grid" party. There is a pattern here and it is not regulations.

CA blackouts are driven by wildfire mitigation.