why does bmw require 10w60 ?

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
ammolab - The "R" Series oils are typically available in Classic car/bike circles but are for race use only and caster based. Viscosities sre 30, 40 and 50. "Old" technology Manx Nortons, 7Rs and the likes usually use 40

I should have said "Classic race Cars and Bikes" - sorry!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Now what you'll need to do to complete the test is take the M5's and drive flat out (I think the M5 is electronically limited to only 255 km/h), about half an hour should be long enough, to see how hot the oil gets and to measure the oil consumption.

And if Ontario's finest manages to catch up to you (when you finally pull off the highway) simply say you were conducting a test strictly for engineering/scientific purposes. That should work!!!


Yeah, it's around that. But it can be easily removed

If the penalty for 50 over is a suspended license, impounded vehicle and massive fine, I can only imagine what the dues are for 150 over

 

[Solarent]

What I want to know is what 125 km stretch in Ontario are you going to be able to drive safely at a consistent 255 km/h .... having driven most of that province, I can't think of any stretch I would be comfortable maintaining that speed - between traffic and road quality..... and we do want you to live to give us your test results.

 

[JAG]

Said it before but at BMW driver school that I attended, all of the M5s were getting to 300F oil temps which put them in limp mode or whatever it is called. Ambient temp was 102F...hot! This was a few years ago and the cars were the current model of that time. 10W-60 in that condition is a good thing.
Racing more easily makes hotter oil temps. than simply holding a high speed because fuel consumption is very high and less air goes past the radiator(s).

 

[CATERHAM]

What that expression, "In for a penny, in for a pound"!

I was nabbed under the "stunt driving, racing" law back in 2008 while passing a line of cars on a two lane road with a cop speeding towards me.
To make a long story short, the charge was dropped for "lack of evidence". There was plenty of evidence but it was that the cop fabricated a story... he said there was "a few cars between us" to give the impression that he had no influence on my speed. Time distance analysis proved he was lying. So ther charge never even went to court. But I still had my car impounded, licence suspension and it cost me about $2,000 in total including lawyers fees.

But if you have a clean driving record, you might be able to talk you way out of it. A freind of mine did when he was clocked doing 175 km/h in 80 zone in his Porsche 911 in the middle of nowhere. He's a very bright guy. He calmly questioned the cops evidence, said he wasn't going that fast and insisted in talking to the officers supervisor. Bottom line; no ticket at all, just a warning.
The precedent has already been made at the Ontario Supreme Court level, if it comes down to your word or the cop's, the court must accept your word; i.e., you were not going as fast as the cop said you were. Hey, it's an unconstitutional charge and you're being charged, tried and executed on the side of the road. So do and say whatever it takes to get the charged dropped or reduced to a simply speeding offence. Fight fire with fire.

Sorry for the rant of sorts.
Apparently that's the key, going over the officer's head.

 

[OVERKILL]

Yes, I think the entire thing is bloody ridiculous.

Solarant: I can't think of a section of the 401. However, the trans-Canada in New Brunswick would work. There are plenty of very long, very straight sections.

 

[mpow3r]

Hi,
jaj - yes there is actually two versions today - a PAO (via Castrol) and the "ester" (via BMW) - the ester version is the original. It was originally of 15W-50 viscosity, red in colour and of a castor base - ahhhhhhh that exhaust smell......quote]

Hi Doug,

Just to clarify, are you saying that Castrol Edge 10W60 (now called Castrol Edge FST 10W60 for M engines) is PAO based and Castrol TWS (only available from main dealer) is Ester based? Here in the UK we are of the understanding that TWS and Edge 10W60 are the exact same product and formulation, the names only differ as one is sold by main dealer and the other is available from resellers. Even well known distributors like Opie Oils confirm that it is the same. Sorry, not doubting you just wanting clarification.

People that are questioning why BMW spec such a heavy oil, well as some have said this isn’t any ordinary 10W60. I also looked into this and will explain what I have found and why I think that this is a very special 60 weight. Firstly, I would just like to say that not all M engines are meant to be running this, especially when it comes to the E36 M3 as the Euro E36 M S50B32 engine is very different to the US S50/S52. The US one is more of a bored out 328 engine where as the Euro S50 is more closer to the S54 (E46 M3 engine) with its ITB etc… which give it much more power and torque Hence the heavier oil spec. Main thing with the TWS/Edge 10W60 is its cold flow properties. It has a cold crank viscosity of 4860cP @ -25 Deg C and a pour point of -51 Deg C! This CCV is close to and even better than some 30 weight oils at -25 Deg C. Most other 60 weight oils are around the 7000cP range. TWS’s viscosity at 100 Deg C is thicker than other 60 weights too. So in actual fact it flows like a 30 weight at start up but at the same time protects better than other 60 weights at operating temp, hence people believing it not being just any 60 weight oil. Other reasons for BMW choosing this viscosity have already been covered.

I’m no expert at oil analysis, not even close; I have just been reading a lot on this site and doing my own research into oils. I have made a large spreadsheet with all the mainstream and racing oils and split it according to viscosities, labelling all the properties of all oils, it was after doing this that I clearly saw the differences between TWS and other 60 weights. If I have misunderstood what CCV is please correct me.

Regards

Kash

 

[A_Harman]

Kash,

It is the W-number of an oil grade that governs its maximum allowable CCV. It is not correct to say that Castrol 10W-60 has the same CCV as a 30-weight. It has the same CCV as any 10W-XX oil that you can point to. In the SAE viscosity grading system, 10W oils are allowed a maximum of 7000cP CCV @ -25C. Any oil that falls within that spec qualifies as a 10W.

 

[AEHaas]

"German cars have always spec'd a thick oil."

I let the dealership put in the "recommended" oil for the last oil change of my 57s Maybach. It was the 5-30 Mobil 1. The 0-40 was the recommended OEM oil up to that point. This is for the 6.0 L v12 with 612 BHP and over 700 ftlbs torque. Up to this point I was running 0W-20 but did not have any extra on hand at the time.

aehaas

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
What I want to know is what 125 km stretch in Ontario are you going to be able to drive safely at a consistent 255 km/h .... having driven most of that province, I can't think of any stretch I would be comfortable maintaining that speed - between traffic and road quality..... and we do want you to live to give us your test results.

255 is nothing. Try the open prairie. I had my mustang gps speed at 156 mph. Car was floating. It was awesome. I have been 300 km/hr on my cousins r1. That's fast.

 

[mpow3r]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Kash,

It is the W-number of an oil grade that governs its maximum allowable CCV. It is not correct to say that Castrol 10W-60 has the same CCV as a 30-weight. It has the same CCV as any 10W-XX oil that you can point to. In the SAE viscosity grading system, 10W oils are allowed a maximum of 7000cP CCV @ -25C. Any oil that falls within that spec qualifies as a 10W.


Thank you for explaining, I get what you are saying.

I was just trying to point out that compared to all other 60 weights it has a very good CCV as they are all on or close to the 7000cP range as you pointed out.

So does that in fact mean that it flows much better than other 10W60's from cold start?

 

[A_Harman]

Possibly. You would have to compare the CCV specs of other 10w60's to determine that.

Here in the USA, we tend to be anti-Castrol because their product data sheets don't give actual tested values, they only say that the oil meets the minimum specs. We have to search the European websites if we want to find actual values.

 

[virginoil]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13

Here's an article on Red Line's website about products they make for Bimmers. Even they don't recommend 10w60:

"Most E36 and E46 cars run fine on the recommended 5W30-even with all but the most dramatic aftermarket mods. The need for 10W60 motor oil in the M-cars is questionable to many (including Red Line, as we've seen customers run as light as 5W30 in E46 M3s without issue), but we now offer this product for sale in North America (we have sold this product in Asia for many years). Folks like Bavarian Autosport smartly recommend that that their Red Line customers use the lightest weight that's appropriate for seasonal conditions. We don't argue that."

BMW should stop trying to gloss over their inability to engineer proper bearings and oiling systems by spec'ing absurdly high oil viscosities.


I would like to think its because BMW underwrite the vehicle warranty and brand reputation.

Redline don't even have and OEM spec approval, as yet that I am aware of, I am not sure what warranty they provide.

Redline write many pages of technical stuff to you convince you that their oil is best etc. fair enough, too much reading, too much risk and unproven oil use it too for me to gamble with.

Warren Buffet quote "Lesson No. 4: Stick with what you know. Applying Buffett's basic rule is: If you don't understand a company's product or how it makes money, avoid it. He calls this "staying within your circle of confidence."

Redline Oil company recommendations need to be taken with a grain of salt IMO until they get some OEM builder approvals. ie Redline Oil engineers need to convince BMW engineers not BITOG layman like myself that their claims are valid and get the BMW builder approval for the 5w30 grade.

Its good to see Redline make the 10w60 grade for BMW, I wish they would just get it approved.

 

[jaj]

Originally Posted By: mpow3r

Hi,
jaj - yes there is actually two versions today - a PAO (via Castrol) and the "ester" (via BMW) - the ester version is the original. It was originally of 15W-50 viscosity, red in colour and of a castor base - ahhhhhhh that exhaust smell......quote]

Hi Doug,

Just to clarify, are you saying that Castrol Edge 10W60 (now called Castrol Edge FST 10W60 for M engines) is PAO based and Castrol TWS (only available from main dealer) is Ester based? Here in the UK we are of the understanding that TWS and Edge 10W60 are the exact same product and formulation, the names only differ as one is sold by main dealer and the other is available from resellers. Even well known distributors like Opie Oils confirm that it is the same. Sorry, not doubting you just wanting clarification.

People that are questioning why BMW spec such a heavy oil, well as some have said this isn’t any ordinary 10W60. I also looked into this and will explain what I have found and why I think that this is a very special 60 weight. Firstly, I would just like to say that not all M engines are meant to be running this, especially when it comes to the E36 M3 as the Euro E36 M S50B32 engine is very different to the US S50/S52. The US one is more of a bored out 328 engine where as the Euro S50 is more closer to the S54 (E46 M3 engine) with its ITB etc… which give it much more power and torque Hence the heavier oil spec. Main thing with the TWS/Edge 10W60 is its cold flow properties. It has a cold crank viscosity of 4860cP @ -25 Deg C and a pour point of -51 Deg C! This CCV is close to and even better than some 30 weight oils at -25 Deg C. Most other 60 weight oils are around the 7000cP range. TWS’s viscosity at 100 Deg C is thicker than other 60 weights too. So in actual fact it flows like a 30 weight at start up but at the same time protects better than other 60 weights at operating temp, hence people believing it not being just any 60 weight oil. Other reasons for BMW choosing this viscosity have already been covered.

I’m no expert at oil analysis, not even close; I have just been reading a lot on this site and doing my own research into oils. I have made a large spreadsheet with all the mainstream and racing oils and split it according to viscosities, labelling all the properties of all oils, it was after doing this that I clearly saw the differences between TWS and other 60 weights. If I have misunderstood what CCV is please correct me.

Regards

Kash


Kash - Castrol Edge 10w-60 and Castrol TWS Motorsport 10w-60 (the BMW product's full name) are the same ester based product with the same BMW approvals. Castrol Edge Motorsport 10w-60 is the PAO version that Doug was talking about.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: AEHaas
"German cars have always spec'd a thick oil."

I let the dealership put in the "recommended" oil for the last oil change of my 57s Maybach. It was the 5-30 Mobil 1. The 0-40 was the recommended OEM oil up to that point. This is for the 6.0 L v12 with 612 BHP and over 700 ftlbs torque. Up to this point I was running 0W-20 but did not have any extra on hand at the time.
aehaas

Except the RLI 0W-20 has a HTHSV in the 3.0-3.3cP range, the same as M1 5W-30. So in reality you've always been using the spec'd viscosity for the Maybach.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: virginoil
Originally Posted By: A_Harman

Its good to see Redline make the 10w60 grade for BMW, I wish they would just get it approved.

Red Line is a boutique formulator that chooses not to submit their oils to anyone for approval.

As A_Harman pointed out, RL recommends their VII free HTHSV 3.8cP 5W-30 in place of the TWS 10W-60 for M series BMWs and not their own 10W-60. RL made the grade available because it's "popular" but it's not actually recommended by them. And with a HTHSV of 6.7cP it is indeed a extremely heavy oil; much more so than the 5.4cP TWS 10W-60, an oil that is know to shear as much as 25% in service. Even RL's 5W-50 (HTHSV 5.9cP) is still way heavier than TWS 10W-60.

If I had an M series BMW for which TWS 10W-60 was spec'd that's the only 10W-60 I would consider using. It's the oil that's important not the grade on the bottle. In reality this oil has the viscosity closer to that of a heavy 40wt oil in service. Way too much is made of the grade on the bottle.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Kash - jaj - states it correctly regarding formulations!

CATERHAM - You said this:
"If I had an M series BMW for which TWS 10W-60 was spec'd that's the only 10W-60 I would consider using. It's the oil that's important not the grade on the bottle. In reality this oil has the viscosity closer to that of a heavy 40wt oil in service. Way too much is made of the grade on the bottle."

And I would too - yes, it is the oil not simply the grade on the bottle. And Oh how I know that!!!

AHHaas - You said this?
"German cars have always spec'd a thick oil"

If so, the statement is simply incorrect!

 

[nleksan]

For what it may be worth, perhaps little or nothing, I have had a lot of experience with all manner of BMW, and a buddy races his E46 M3 at a lot of events beside me. Car is heavily modified, but it is mostly suspension/brakes/wheels/body as well as intake, CSL headers (no cats), Eisenmann Race exhaust, U/D Pullies, L/W Flywheel, custom dyno tune, etc. ZERO internal engine mods, and with 80k miles on his '06 it gets a lot of driving done and is religiously maintained, obsessively-so even.
At an open track day Summer '10, he had a serious oil problem. He has a very upgraded cooling system (Fluidyne rad, Stewart wp, Samco hoses, Oil Cooler, etc), so despite the 90-95*f weather he should have been fine. Lap twelve, he began getting oil starvation issues, minor at first but he had the pressure completely drop two laps later on a high G turn. Pulls off after limping the second half of the lap, and oil temp was over 320*f! I have never seen an M hit anything like that.
Turns out that with the car recently out of warranty he did his own oil change, and used M1 or PP (cannot recall which) at a 0w40 or 5w40 weight. The oil did not have the film strength needed apparently, and he dumped it right there while I drove him 55mi to the nearest BMW dealership where he grabbed 10qts of the 10w60 and a filter, we drove back and did the change, and he was out lapping that afternoon with oil temps well within range.
He has since added a larger oil cooler and a larger capacity baffled pan, so he is now holding over 11qts of oil, but refuses to use any other oil.

Perhaps it was a fluke or something else was behind it, but I always remember that day whenever someone asks why I need oil temp and pressure gauges in my own car (nice gauges too... Analog and digital displayed concurrently).
This is NOT a slam against any oil, simply an anecdote of the type of condition under which the 10w60 exceeds lower weight oils.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: nleksan

At an open track day Summer '10, he had a serious oil problem. despite the 90-95*f weather he should have been fine. Lap twelve, he began getting oil starvation issues, minor at first but he had the pressure completely drop two laps later on a high G turn. Pulls off after limping the second half of the lap, and oil temp was over 320*f! I have never seen an M hit anything like that.
Turns out that with the car recently out of warranty he did his own oil change, and used M1 or PP (cannot recall which) at a 0w40 or 5w40 weight. The oil did not have the film strength needed apparently, and he dumped it right there while I drove him 55mi to the nearest BMW dealership where he grabbed 10qts of the 10w60 and a filter, we drove back and did the change, and he was out lapping that afternoon with oil temps well within range.
He has since added a larger oil cooler and a larger capacity baffled pan, so he is now holding over 11qts of oil, but refuses to use any other oil.

Oil starvation while cornering is not an uncommon problem (particularly with wet sumped engines) and is one of the main reasons I always recommend the installation of an OP gauge to anyone who plans on tracking their car or even for aggressive street driving. The lack of OP has nothing to do with the 40wt oil he was running or the high oil temp's. The likely explanation for both was that he was simply low on oil.

 

[virginoil]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Originally Posted By: A_Harman

Its good to see Redline make the 10w60 grade for BMW, I wish they would just get it approved.

Red Line is a boutique formulator that chooses not to submit their oils to anyone for approval.

As A_Harman pointed out, RL recommends their VII free HTHSV 3.8cP 5W-30 in place of the TWS 10W-60 for M series BMWs and not their own 10W-60. RL made the grade available because it's "popular" but it's not actually recommended by them. And with a HTHSV of 6.7cP it is indeed a extremely heavy oil; much more so than the 5.4cP TWS 10W-60, an oil that is know to shear as much as 25% in service. Even RL's 5W-50 (HTHSV 5.9cP) is still way heavier than TWS 10W-60.

If I had an M series BMW for which TWS 10W-60 was spec'd that's the only 10W-60 I would consider using. It's the oil that's important not the grade on the bottle. In reality this oil has the viscosity closer to that of a heavy 40wt oil in service. Way too much is made of the grade on the bottle.


Pretty much agree with what you said except for the krapp defence for Redline Oils.

IMO opinion they are a profit driven company like any other and too tight arrsed to pay for OEM approvals.

I don't what to deflect this thread to bashing Redline or supporting Redline. After 8 years on this forum I am just tired of Redlines poor performance in this area.