Why do "luxury" cars have so many problems?

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My most reliable car was my 85 Omni, because it had no options. I remember looking at CR, which showed lots of black dots for the Omni, yet when you looked at the bottom line, it had a red dot for "value for the money"... essentially giving the car a thumbs up!

(I like CR not just for product ratings, but the articles give a good description of the trends in technology. I buy based on repair history, which is all-important to me.)
 
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CR is based on complaints by car buyers in the first year, I believe, and generally seems to better indicate the number of in-warranty, as-delivered issues - major or not - and isn't really representative of the life of the car. Different brands and price points have different buyer demographics - some whinier than others.

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When I took a survey a few years ago, it went back 5-6 maybe 7 years I believe.
 
This a great thread. I for one thank all for this input. I see many forums only talk about the positive points about their cars and NEVER the cost of ownership when it's over 5yrs. Lets keep this going!!!
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I had an 86 Dodge Omni, it was my first car. All that went wrong with it when I had it is that the alternator crapped out. Besides that, it was painfully slow and boring to drive, and an ugly shade of yellow. It was also carbureted and didn't want to start on cold mornings without a lot of fuss.
 
I think someone is confusing JDPower and CR when they say they only survey the first year. Benjamminq is right, they go back at least 5 yrs. They ask how much you spent on repairs in various categories, so opinions don't matter.

Most people argue that those with expensive cars don't like to admit that they made an error, and thus don't like to report problems, so surveys are inaccurate. By asking for how much repairs cost CR tries to get around this. I think CR does a commendable job but there are problems with any survey. Some people complain they don't report enough, some they quibble it is too much. In recent years it does seem that CR is combining models and they no longer differentiate between engines, or automatic vs manual trannies. I think it is getting more complex and too many models to cover. This is an interesting link, where CR says that the Mercedes 7 speed automatics are a problem, Mercedes says not so. They also say that MB was upfront a few years ago when they did have a problem, thus you should believe them. VW also has had their share of problems, and they admit to it.

Strangely, I have not had problems with loaded vehicles, so I don't buy the comment that the simpler cars don't have anything to go wrong. I have never had a problem with a power window or power mirrors, automatic climate control or NAV system. As I get older it seems I order more and more stuff on the cars I get and I try to keep them as long as possible. The Omni that was mentioned had a host of problems, mostly the carbs and the shrinking gasket(?) that it was mounted on being a source of vacuum leaks. web page
 
This is a slightly different idea to the question posed, but I believe it follows the same line of thinking.

"Unlike some other big-horsepower SUVs, the Turbo S retains a high, 7700-pound tow rating and off-road gear (low range, adjustable air suspension). Even so, it seems pathetic that the Turbo S can’t outrun a $40,800, 420-hp Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 or an $86,275, 503-hp Mercedes ML63 AMG and has a back seat no more accommodating than a Honda Accord’s."

2006 Porsche Cayenne Turbo S - Short Take Road Tests
 
Hello Lou Dawg ,


I'm going to start over in a sense here - I incorrectly assumed that others would be posting information regarding the pros and cons of CRs' methods and information .
First let me say I'm glad you posed the question - its both relevant and timely .
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Second , if I read CR EXCLUSIVELY I would be thinking along your lines - both in terms of your question , your thinking outloud , and your necc. conclusions .
However , I think there are enough problems with CRs method that trying to use them much beyond a very limited " Lighthouse in the distance " results in trouble .

I'm going to deliberately ignore the front half - ie possibilities of sample bias etc and for the sake of discussion and assume an acceptable sample/sample methodology . ( Having said that , I do think that should at the very least be looked into or considered as well . )

Sometimes its worth seeing what the other guy is doing and why . Also if you will , I'm in agreement with what follows roughly 80-90% of the time on 70-80% of the issues - most importantly the shortcomings at CR .That also means that 20-30% I am not in agreement - more an issue of low to mid grade " implied overstatement ", but still correct overall .
I like what their trying to do over there enough I'm serously thinking about participating and depending on how that goes encouraging others to do so .






Change, but not for the better:
Consumer Reports' new ratings
Or, what's old is new again.



The old rating system
In my first piece on Consumer Reports, I criticized their use of relative ratings. From such ratings it's not possible to tell how many more problems a "bad" car will have than a "good" one. As a result, many readers likely assume this difference is larger than it actually is .

Consumer Reports grappled with this issue back in 1993. For at least twenty years they had been using a relative scale to rate the reliability of each model's systems (engine, transmission, etc.). But the reliability of the average car had improved so much that "looking at the average for each trouble spot, as we had been doing, was not as meaningful as it once was" (April 1993, p. 234). With the average rate under two percent for most systems on nearly new cars, it wasn't possible for any car to earn the prized full-red dot. This just didn't seem right. Also, the clear dot that represented "average" could mean a problem rate from under one percent to over 17 percent.

The solution: an absolute scale where a full-red dot meant a problem rate under two percent, a half-red a rate from two to five, a clear dot a rate from five to 9.3, a half-black a rate from 9.3 to 14.8, and a full-black a rate over 14.8. This made it obvious how problem rates increased as a car aged, and somewhat obvious what the actual rates were.



Problems with the old rating system
Unfortunately, overall rates remained relative to the average, and juxtaposing these with absolute system-level rates created new issues. A model could earn a full set of red dots yet still receive an average overall rating. Shouldn't the dots add up? Well, no. A car might have low problem rates in all areas, yet still be higher than the even lower average in many of these areas. Or fairly low rates in all areas could add up to a fairly high overall rate. Also, it was not possible to tell how a car compared to the average from the new system-level ratings. So Consumer Reports provided a set of ratings for the average car, to which the data for a specific model could be compared. Many people were confused by this so-simple-it's-complicated process.



The new rating system
Last fall they addressed this confusion, but not with an absolute scale for the overall ratings like the one TrueDelta uses. Instead, they've returned to a relative scale for the system-level ratings.

They tossed a relative system back in 1993 because it no longer made sense. How, then, does it make sense in 2006, when cars have become even more reliable? It doesn't. A purely relative system simply isn't viable. So they've actually adopted a hybrid rating system. Once problem rates dip under three percent, an absolute scale takes over. But not the absolute scale they adopted in 1993. Instead, they've adopted a much narrower scale.

With the new scale, a full- or half-black dot can be earned with any problem rate over three percent. A clear, "average" dot means the problem rate is under three percent and a half-red dot means the rate is under two percent. Finally, if the problem rate is below one percent, the system automatically gets a full-red dot.



Absolute rates lost
What's wrong with this new system? First, any sense of absolute problem rates has been lost. A half-black dot indicates that a problem rate is both below average and over three percent. But how far over three percent? In last fall's New Car Preview 2006 (but not in the Annual Auto Issue) they provided a chart of average problem rates. For 2005 models, this average was at or below one percent for 11 of the 15 systems, two percent for three systems, and three percent for just one . How much worse does a rate have to be to be "worse than average"? They They don't say. End result: the question of how bad "bad" is cannot be answered.

Similarly, it's also not possible to tell how good "good" is. Does a full red dot mean that the problem rate is below one percent? Or just much better than the average, and possibly much higher than one percent?.....................................................................................................................................................................


Reliability appears to have declined
Third, the change makes it appear that fairly new vehicles have suddenly become less reliable even though the opposite is true. With the cut-offs now one, two, and three percent rather than two, five, and 9.3 percent, it is now two-to-three times harder to earn a given rating when the average problem rate is low.

The consequences are predictable. Last year a 2004 CTS earned top ratings for every system. This year the 2005 received one half-red, two clear, and one half-black dot. Should people now avoid the car because it has problem rates in the two-to-three percent range for a couple of systems? (The overall rating remains the same at average.)

So why do it?
Why adopt a new system with so many weaknesses? The stated reason is to make the cars' relative reliability more apparent. But there might be another reason. If you're Consumer Reports, you want to sell memberships and magazines. People are more likely to buy these if they're worried about reliability. And if most cars earn high ratings, which has been increasingly the case, they're less likely to be worried. Solution: change the rating system to produce more "bad" dots.

Consumer Reports' new ratings system will boost revenues. But it will also further distort perceptions. Reporting dots rather than actual rates has led many people to believe that the differences among cars are larger than they actually are. The new system intensifies this distortion by shrinking the absolute difference between ratings to as little as a Single Percentage Point . But do those who avoid products with black dots care if a problem rate is three percent instead of one or two percent? I doubt it. Even if some people did care about such small differences, can Consumer Reports' methods and sample size deliver this level of precision? I doubt that, too.



When using any scale, it is important to ensure that different ratings are far enough apart that differences between them matter and can reliably be measured. Consumer Reports' new system fails both tests.

( Key concept - both absolute and relative )
How will TrueDelta do better? Check out the hypothetical reports. By viewing absolute numbers in the context of a comparison , members will quickly get a sense of both absolute and relative problem rates...........................................................................................................

Lou ,
I think there are 2-3 other articules over there under " Think Pieces " you might want to take a look at .

My conclusion ( opinion only ) Lux . vehicles do not have that many more defects if any - its really about how CR presents and how " we " interpret their presentation . Then throw in all the other variables ......... complexity , buyer expectations

Put another way , todays' average car is likely to be head and shoulders over the best from just 10-12 years ago when all things are considered - in this method .
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g20ooh...thanks for the interesting information. I completely understand your concerns and they seem valid. I certainly would like to see the absolute ratings presented with real numbers...and the *magnitude* if the differences clearly stated. Of course, some of the data provided by CR is indeed presented in absolute numbers. For example, problems per 100 vehicles in each of its first ten years of on the road, % of owners who reported problems with particular vehicle systems, etc. I guess my point is there is some real, hard data there to be considered, aside from the red-dot/black-dot quagmire. That can certainly be deceptive, based on your information.

Where are these other 2-3 articles under "think pieces" that you mentioned? I'd like to read them...also, do you have a link to TrueDelta's ratings, if available?

As for the problems with the "relative" ratings (red-dot/black-dot), it reminds me of Einstein's layman's explanation of his Theory of Relativity. He said relativity was like, if you're on a date with a pretty girl, time passes by very quickly. But if you're on a date with an ugly girl? Well, you know...!

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Of course, some of the data provided by CR is indeed presented in absolute numbers. For example, problems per 100 vehicles in each of its first ten years of on the road, % of owners who reported problems with particular vehicle systems, etc. I guess my point is there is some real, hard data there to be considered,

And believe it or not that has its own separate problems as well .

Where are these other 2-3 articles under "think pieces" that you mentioned? I'd like to read them...also, do you have a link to TrueDelta's ratings, if available?

Sigh ...evidently I'm in one of my mess up the post modes - I dropped a bunch of stuff including the links - will correct shortly .

As for the problems with the "relative" ratings (red-dot/black-dot), it reminds me of Einstein's layman's explanation of his Theory of Relativity. He said relativity was like, if you're on a date with a pretty girl, time passes by very quickly. But if you're on a date with an ugly girl? Well, you know...!
THATS GOOD - NEEDED A LAUGH !!!
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Here is one important paragraph I left out - this goes with and helps explain part of the original truedelta article .

Splitting hairs
Second, Consumer Reports is splitting some very fine hairs. Can they reliably predict system-level problem rates at the one-percent level? Maybe for a few models where they have a huge sample, but for many cars their sample size is under 200, and it can be as small as 100. So the ratings can easily be determined by whether or not a single respondent reports an issue. Add in the wiggle room provided by a roughly one in six response rate, letting respondents determine whether a problem is "serious" enough to be reported, and people's shaky memories when asked to report things that happened a year earlier, and the new system implies a far higher level of precision than their research design can deliver.

As pointed out in my second piece on Consumer Reports, they have unexplained variances of as much as 80 points for the overall ratings. This doesn't lend confidence that they can measure system-level problem rates at the one-percent level.

And the link ;
http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/newdots.php?session_code=


LouDawg ,
This is article #1 . The previous article and the paragraph above was from article #3 .The other articles are to the right of any linked article when viewed .

To the Forum at Large ;
my only purpose and use of this material is to further discussion of LouDawgs' original thread and discussion . I have no commercial or financial interest in truedelta although I am on a personal basis considering my own individual participation in this program as stated previously .The program is free for those willing to participate and help build the data base .

Again LouDawg I'm about 80%X80% in agreement here - same as previous .


Seven Serious Problems with
Consumer Reports
-- and how TrueDelta will avoid them

For decades, Consumer Reports has been the best source of vehicle reliability information. But even the best is not good enough. In at least seven ways, Consumer Reports' data collection methods or modes of presentation mislead or underinform consumers.

In each case, TrueDelta is doing things much differently.


( This , item #1 just does not sit right and I think covers some of the ground in regards to your original questioning )
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1. "Serious problems"
Consumer Reports' ratings are based on the number of "serious problems" reported by its members. They never precisely define the term. Instead, Consumer Report's survey form leaves it up to each respondent to determine which problems are serious enough to report, an invitation to bias.

In contrast, TrueDelta will report measures like "times in the shop" and "days in the shop." These mean what they seem to mean. If a vehicle is in the shop for something other than routine maintenance or an excluded wear item (listed on TrueDelta's survey form), that's serious enough.
( This in turn may have limitations as well although I think EVEN WORSE CASE it would still be VERY USEFUL )



2. Relative ratings
Consumer Reports rates each model relative to the average vehicle. As a result, the absolute number of problems a vehicle will experience remains unclear . Does an "above average" vehicle "never break?" Is a "below average" vehicle "always in the shop?"

In the absence of hard numbers, people tend to assume that the best vehicles are better than they are and that the worst vehicles are worse than they are. (YEP) I once had a vigorous discussion with the owner of a Japanese SUV. As proof of his vehicle's superior reliability, he noted that its brand had been the highest-rated in Consumer Reports' 2005 auto issue. His brand's nearly new cars had had eight "serious problems" per hundred vehicles. While this was less than half the eighteen problems per hundred nearly new domestic brand vehicles, the absolute difference was just one-tenth of a serious problem per car.

This did not--and does not--strike me as anything to get wound up over. The real problem: few people when glancing through the magazine think about the absolute numbers behind the relative ratings.(Or the specifics of the failures )
( This COULD be an oversimplification - either way - depending on the nature of the problem(s) . Example #1 ; 8 radio speaker failures vs 18 radio speaker failures . Example #2 8 headgasket problems vs 18 radio speaker failures )

In contrast, TrueDelta will clearly report absolute ratings.



3. Ranges
Consumer Reports' rates models on a five-point scale from "much worse than average" to "much better than average" using their well-known red and black "blobs." In 2005 (when I first wrote this), more than half of domestic models earned an "average" rating, while many Hondas and Toyotas earned an "above average" rating. (With the average increasing, "much better than average" ratings have become rarer.)

"Average" means within twenty percent of the average, so 80 to 120 on an index with 100 being average. "Better than average" ranges from 121 to 145. So if one vehicle is "average" and another is "better than average," then the difference between them can range anywhere from a single point--totally insignificant--to 65 points--very significant. The red and black dots appear simple to understand, but they conceal far more than the convey. As a result, many readers of the magazine understand far less than they think they do.
(Excellent Points )

In contrast, TrueDelta will clearly report the absolute differences between vehicles. For example, analysis of the data might find that one vehicle over the first five years of ownership will take 2.3 extra trips to the shop, for a total of 3.6 extra days.



4. Only averages
Vehicle reliability has been steadily improving. Even the average eight- year -old domestic brand model was reported on page 17 of the 2005 Auto issue to have fewer than one-and-a-half "serious problems" per year. Yet many people would avoid such a car because they fear it will have "lots of problems."

While perceptions are distorted by Consumer Reports' emphasis on relative ratings, another factor is involved: people are afraid of getting an unusually troublesome vehicle. Even if the average is the same for two models, the chances of getting a lemon could be far higher for one than the other. People might fear that even as the average rate of problems for domestic vehicles comes down the odds of getting a lemon remain uncomfortably high.

Based on Consumer Reports' reported results there's no way to know one way or the other, as they only report averages. To my knowledge, they have never discussed the odds of getting an unusually good or bad example of a particular model.

In contrast, TrueDelta will report the odds of getting a lemon and the odds of getting a perfect car (in addition to reporting the average number of trips to the shop and days in the shop). ( I think , if done correctly - big improvement possible . )



5. Survey (in)frequency
Consumer Reports sends out an annual survey asking people to report problems that occurred during the entire previous year. This is too long a period to expect people to accurately remember what happened.

In contrast, TrueDelta sends a monthly email asking people to report trips to the shop that occured the previous month. In most cases participants will still only have to fill out one or two brief survey's a year. So the effort will be the same or less. But respondents' recall will be much more accurate.



6. Stale information
Consumer Reports mails out surveys each spring, then first reports the results the following November. As a result, when a new vehicle is introduced in the fall its reliability isn't reported until over a year later. This is a long time to wait for someone interested in a hot new design; by the time its reliability is known it will no longer be hot.

In a related issue, the vehicles reported on aren't as old as Consumer Reports suggests. For example, while "three-year-old vehicles" are, on average, three years old at the time the auto issue appears, they were only about two years old when the problems were reported, and only about one year old at the beginning of the period being reported upon. ( Huge aha )

In contrast, TrueDelta updates its stats quarterly, and will first report reliability as soon as four months after a new vehicle reaches dealers. On average, TrueDelta's resutls are over ten months "fresher" than those of Consumer Reports.



7. Fossilization
The last serious problem at least partially explains the others: Consumer Reports, once an innovator, has ceased to innovate. They have been asking questions and reporting results much the same way for decades. No surprise, really, as they've had no serious competition and have been subjected to very little outside evaluation .

Want better vehicle reliability information? Participate in TrueDelta's research and help make it happen.

Thanks for reading.

Michael Karesh, TrueDelta

First posted: September 5, 2005
Last updated: February 24, 2007
 
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g20ooh, I took the plunge and enrolled in the TrueDelta panel. I'm going to encourage some of my friends on the Escape and Accord forums to do the same. The more data, the better!

Despite the obvious flaws and lack of specificity on some of CR's data, I do like what they're trying to do, still. And like you said, maybe 80% of the time it's maybe 80% accurate. I guess that's still better than, "Well, I had a '87 T-Bird that blew a head gasket, so all Fords are junk!" Or, "My sister-in-law's Jetta was the best car she ever owned, so VW's are awesome!"

Thanks for the good information...I'm always looking to learn.
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g20ooh, I took the plunge and enrolled in the TrueDelta panel. I'm going to encourage some of my friends on the Escape and Accord forums to do the same. The more data, the better!

Despite the obvious flaws and lack of specificity on some of CR's data, I do like what they're trying to do, still. And like you said, maybe 80% of the time it's maybe 80% accurate. I guess that's still better than, "Well, I had a '87 T-Bird that blew a head gasket, so all Fords are junk!" Or, "My sister-in-law's Jetta was the best car she ever owned, so VW's are awesome!"

Thanks for the good information...I'm always looking to learn.
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I just want to check them out a little further - but I'm almost there on joining too . There is pretty much one main limitation over there - 11,000 vehicles in the sample base . Well , only one way each of us individually can help that !
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LouDawg that 80X80% was in reference to truedeltas' critque , their solutions , and part of their " style " and conclusions .

As far as CR goes I'm pretty much in full agreement with true deltas' description of their limitations . Because of the arguements put forth there and some other things I don't and haven't since 1993 ( FIRST CHANGE UP ) considered them an accurate source of information ( I DID consider them somewhat to medium sized useful previously - what else was there for the consumer ? )
I'm with you on the abuse of personal histories and I'm also with you on the desire for useful ,and accurate information . Truth is hard to come by these days - no matter the topic . Truly the age of the Corporation or as B.M. used to say " Corporatism "
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I " think " the answers or perhaps many of the answers to your excellent original post/question lie in truedeltas critique .
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I do hope that CR will address this - I think they could have their cake and eat it too - and we would all win as well . I do find it strange that they haven't already done so .
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I'm not sure of what to make of the fact that each time they have changed up its benefited toyota and Honda at the expense of all the rest - and the timing was extremely fortuitous both times for both as well . Not pointing any fingers - just observing - " may " have been somewhat unavoidable - definitely could have been handled better !
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LouDawg ,
One other thing .
Wasn't looking around for it and I haven't looked into it , but last night I came across three separate posts on three very different locations mentioning that CR still takes " Research Grant " Money and supposedly still will not divulge the details of it .
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I'm not going to pursue it any farther - (from here only ) whats the point if they don't fix everything else but I realize you may feel differently .
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So...... you might want to check that out .
If I was to pursue it I'd start by asking CR directly if this is so - or was in the past .
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This a great thread. I for one thank all for this input. I see many forums only talk about the positive points about their cars and NEVER the cost of ownership when it's over 5yrs. Lets keep this going!!!
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Yep .
I'm sorting through about 10 familly members' service records on some old cars and I'm not a happy camper . Starting around 2002/2003 looks like service costs went up enough in this group to wipe out all the reliability savings . So I'm asking myself , whats the point of peak reliability if you give it all back on service ? Isn't it really all about all costs after that 5 year point ?
Maybe thats what we really need - real - not calculated cost of ownership data year 4 - 12 .
 
g20ooh, thanks for your vigilance on all this...it's been educational. It's made me at least look at certain aspects of CR's data a little more discriminatingly.

As for the cost of ownership, I know that Honda has some stuff posted in their dealership when I bought the Accord about how the Civic had the lowest TCO in the first five years, including purchase price, insurance, service, maintenance, and repairs, etc. But I don't recall who conducted the survey or if/where it's available.

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