Why do "luxury" cars have so many problems?

[double vanos]

The problem with luxury cars and German cars in particular is that they have electronics for electronics sake.

Just because one can develop some whizbang gizmo doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be incorporated into a car. iDrive comes to mind right off the bat - it is an answer to a question nobody asked.

Gizmos that allow the car to paralell park itself and back up cameras that take the place of vigilant eyes are destined to fail generally right outside the warranty period.

Most of this junk just adds to vehicle weight and keeps it from wringing all the mileage from a gallon of gas that could be gotten.

That, and decreased reliabilty to boot.

My next car may be a base VW Rabbit - it's still very German and at that price point it can't be all that complex with electronics. My .02 Cheers!

 

[wileyE]

Germany sticks it to the USA every chance it gets. Why would the cars be any different?

 

[windnsea00]

Quote:

---

The problem with luxury cars and German cars in particular is that they have electronics for electronics sake.

Just because one can develop some whizbang gizmo doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be incorporated into a car. iDrive comes to mind right off the bat - it is an answer to a question nobody asked.

---

Funny though how Audi, MBZ, and Infiniti all made a similar system after the I-drive. I personally think it was necessary with all the gadgets in their cars now or you will end up with an airplane cockpit full of buttons.

 

[LouDawg]

I just want to point out again that it isn't just electronic gadgets we're talking about here. Based on the CR report for MB, for example, there are suspension, driveline, engine minor, and other problems not necessarily related to electronics. If anyone would like information from CR specific to a particular model, let me know.

(Yes, I know...it's CR. But it's probably the largest sample size out there.)

 

[carock]

With the Germans, I think they are having problems with global outsourcing. They were the last to really dive into it, AND they had the bummer of hiring Ignacio Lopez from GM as the VW-Audi quality guru.I noticed that quality nose dived off a cliff after Ignacio got started with his thinly veiled "lets beat the ____ out of our suppliers" tactics. Basically his approach to quality was to find a 50 year old spec that the supplier did not test, and beat up the supplier for a 30% price reduction until the supplier passed the irrelevant spec. Then he could go to the boardroom and show how he increased the "specification content" and reduced the price at the same time. Sounds great on a Power Point chart at a big meeting, but the suppliers soon learned how to present great paper work AND cheasey parts

 

[Junior]

Quote:

---

I just want to point out again that it isn't just electronic gadgets we're talking about here. Based on the CR report for MB, for example, there are suspension, driveline, engine minor, and other problems not necessarily related to electronics. If anyone would like information from CR specific to a particular model, let me know.

(Yes, I know...it's CR. But it's probably the largest sample size out there.)

---

Buying a luxury car has nothing to do with quality. The bottom line is quality does not sell a product. Service, image, status quo etc. will sell the car. The consumer of luxury cars are much different than the average joe. They want the car and what it represents. Harley Davidson has this down to a science. They outsell all thier competition by a least 5 to 1 with with a product that costs more than twice a much. Their quaility is good but their competition is better. Quality is not what sells motorcycles. Image, service, experience, the feeling you get from ownership, the "look at me" image. That is what sells. People are not rational. If we were, none of us would smoke, drink or gamble. Luxury car buying decisions come from the heart and not the brain.

 

[LouDawg]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I just want to point out again that it isn't just electronic gadgets we're talking about here. Based on the CR report for MB, for example, there are suspension, driveline, engine minor, and other problems not necessarily related to electronics. If anyone would like information from CR specific to a particular model, let me know.

(Yes, I know...it's CR. But it's probably the largest sample size out there.)

---

Buying a luxury car has nothing to do with quality. The bottom line is quality does not sell a product. Service, image, status quo etc. will sell the car. The consumer of luxury cars are much different than the average joe. They want the car and what it represents. Harley Davidson has this down to a science. They outsell all thier competition by a least 5 to 1 with with a product that costs more than twice a much. Their quaility is good but their competition is better. Quality is not what sells motorcycles. Image, service, experience, the feeling you get from ownership, the "look at me" image. That is what sells. People are not rational. If we were, none of us would smoke, drink or gamble. Luxury car buying decisions come from the heart and not the brain.

---

I agree with your points, but you're talking about image, status, marketing, and the psychology of the buyer. Those are all interesting considerations, but my original point was really more about the actual quality levels. I'm just trying to learn more about why *some* of these brands *seem* to have inferior levels of quality when compared to their much less expensive counterparts. Or to put it another way, why would a car so expensive have so many quality problems. Why would a $100K+ car not be at the top of the list when it comes to quality? Fact, fiction, or anything in between?

 

[Junior]

Ok, I'll make is simple for you. The market does not demand that the luxury cars have superior quality. Why spend millions on quality when "good enough" will do.

btw, my points are not interesting considerations, they are market proven facts. Quality does not sell products.

 

[Junior]

Ok, I should restate that, you cannot sell products on quality alone. Quality is expected by the consumer. It is what sets you appart from the competition that sells.

 

[LouDawg]

Quote:

---

Ok, I'll make is simple for you. The market does not demand that the luxury cars have superior quality. Why spend millions on quality when "good enough" will do.

btw, my points are not interesting considerations, they are market proven facts. Quality does not sell products.

---

Your smarmy attitude is unnecessary and uncalled for here. I don't need you to "make it simple" for me. I totally understood your points, and I acknowledged that by saying they were "interesting considerations". I did not say that because I disagreed with them, only to focus on something else, i.e. physical quality aspects. Understand?

And yes, quality DOES sell cars...maybe not "luxury" cars, but many others. Why do you think many people have stopped buying certain brands? Because they didn't like the commercials? Because they didn't have enough options or advanced features? Or could it be because they perceived the quality of those vehicles to be inferior? Yes people "expect" quality, but there are degrees of quality that will attract or repel buyers.

 

[Junior]

Oh Lou, where to start. Luxury cars are a completely different product than the common Honda or Ford. Until you realize that you are never going to get the answer you want and you will keep asking the same question over and over.

I'm sorry if I got short with you. It was a gut reaction to someone basically taking the "NO, NO, NO you didn't answer my question" attitude to my response. Of course you didn't make it any better when you shot back with the "behavior police" remarks when you yourself are justs as guilty as anyone else and then start topics like "is it less civil on the board".

Anywho, by rights, luxury cars should be top of the line and I am pretty sure most are. But, sometimes a few things fall short. At this point you need to look at the business case for fixing the problem. Is it cheaper to fix the problem spending millions in R&D or is it cheaper to pay warranty, etc, etc. Luxury car buyers IMO are more tolerant to repairs due to the fun factor of the car. If people keep buying them then why in the world would a company spend all that money to fix this little problem. BTW, I think most of the quality stuff is perception. Or, it could be maintenance practice of the owner. Who knows.

 

[LouDawg]

Sorry if I got short, too. I apologize if I mistook your comments...I just thought you were implying I didn't understand your comments, and I thought you didn't understand my points. I really do like things to be civil, and when I think someone is being rude, I tend to get my feathers ruffled. My apologies.

Back on topic, I do recognize the fun factor is a big deal. And I also understand that the status factor, conspicuous consumption, perceived quality, etc. I'm also not trying to come off as having sour grapes. And I'm not saying that "my cars" are better than anyone else's cars. It's true that most luxury car buyers are obviously more tolerant because of such things.

I'm sure there's no single answer...it's really just an open-ended discussion with my perceptions maybe being misguided. I just keep going back to the point that, regardless of all the fun factor, driving dynamics, luxury, etc., it just *seems* that these ought to be top of the line.

Maybe they are...or maybe at this point I'm just

Anyway, it's all good...and I love chatting about this stuff!

 

[RacerE7773]

Because the people whom buy/rent (oops, lease. I'm sorry

)can afford to get them fixed whenever something goes wrong. I've never seen a Benz with a muffler dragging, but a junker like the malibu I had 20 years ago?:

 

[wileyE]

Had to change a waterpump on a GF's late model V8 MB. Two words, "over" "engineered". WOW, how could anybody take something as simple as a water pump and make it so complex, hard to remove, and in accessable. Same with the internal cartridge oil filter, and the sparkplug head cover. Their design engineers must get paid by the piece, because they would have 2 or 3 intricate brackets just to hold 1 hose or wire or something. Plus all the hardware to secure it (with the heads blind so you couldn't get a tool on them). It was like they set out to build and package an engine with the most possible parts and not be able to service them. Except the oil pan, they forgot the drain plug, you pull the pan or pump the fluid out. Fine german engineering.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Some musings:

In my opinion, nothing drives like the euro cars. Either you're interested in driving, or your car is a means of conveyance from point A to point B. I find that most German autos have an unshakable planted feel that "feels good" even when you aren't pushing the handling very much. I read an interview of a Chief Engineer from one of the American car companies who simply stated "We design our cars to go 55mph, they [Germans] design theirs to go 155mph. Which do YOU think will be better?"

I have a 1998 BMW with the I6 2.8L M52 (cable throttle) and 127,000km. It's a 5 series but it doesn't really have any of the optional bells-and-whistles. It does, however, have the sport package and a manual transmission. Just the manual alone is hard enough to find in a decent-sized sedan, let alone handling. It appears that car manufacturers feel that everyone wants a silver automatic with a soft ride. My BMW has, so far, been just as reliable as my 1990 Acura Integra was, which was a great car. I'm a stickler about maintenance, and I probably consider more items to be maintenance than some, but I've had very few repairs - a cracked thermostat housing (common, easy to diagnose and cheap to fix), my viscous main fan clutch became noisy ($90 part) and a bad camshaft sensor (common for my mileage and a code reader points you to it, $80 part). That's it. Everything else has been what I view as maintenance. Belts, repacking pulleys, fluids, O2 sensors, reclamp steering fluid hose, plugs, fuel filter, alignments, shocks and bushings, battery etc... All of these things have lasted what I consider a reasonable lifetime. If something starts squeaking or not working quite right, I fix it before it fails. I was mentally prepared for lots of electrical problems but have had none.

Some of the folks from my other forums tired of some of the higher maintenance requirements of their V8 E39s and wandered over to Lexus, Infiniti and Nissan. A lot came back and stated that it wasn't worth it - both in terms of finances and driving experience. One Nissan owner basically came back to BMW saying "you pay now or you pay later". He had more service issues on his Nissan than his BMW, and even less could be done yourself on the Nissan so he had to go to the dealer for everything.

Since I bought my BMW used a number of years ago finances have changed, the family has grown and I figured my next car would be something "normal", but I've really started to think about that. I look at the cutting edge features in ads for cars like "cupholders that warm or cool your drink" and I couldn't care less. If that's all that the domestic manufacturers can do to entice me, they can keep them.

Some buy cars like BMWs for prestige, some for the dynamics. Some option it out fully, others take the basic platform and go. In Germany, MBs and BMWs are just cars..."domestic cars" no less. There are more lower end models to choose from. In the NA market, the brands are seen as strictly luxury, since we only bring the top cut over here. In my NA-dominant BMW forums the mentality is that "everyone" has the V8 because who on earth would bother with any smaller engines?

As far as serviceability, I DIY most things on my vehicle and I've found it pretty good. I can see, however, that those with all the options will have significantly more problems. Optional features (Xenon headlight ballasts, intensive washer pumps, extra air intakes for the larger engines, latent heat storage, more hydraulics for advanced stability control etc...) all take up extra space under the hood. If I had all of these things, it would admittedly be much harder to service. That being said, I've found most of the engineering to be sound and result in a tidy system where everything has its place. Sorry wileyE, I like cable clips to keep my wiring harnesses from rubbing on things they shouldn't and failing early.

CR is based on complaints by car buyers in the first year, I believe, and generally seems to better indicate the number of in-warranty, as-delivered issues - major or not - and isn't really representative of the life of the car. Different brands and price points have different buyer demographics - some whinier than others.

C

 

[JHZR2]

+1!

great points!

JMH

 

[JHZR2]

Junior Wrote:

Quote:

---

Luxury car buyers IMO are more tolerant to repairs due to the fun factor of the car. If people keep buying them then why in the world would a company spend all that money to fix this little problem. BTW, I think most of the quality stuff is perception. Or, it could be maintenance practice of the owner. Who knows.

---

Craig wrote:

Quote:

---

CR is based on complaints by car buyers in the first year, I believe, and generally seems to better indicate the number of in-warranty, as-delivered issues - major or not - and isn't really representative of the life of the car. Different brands and price points have different buyer demographics - some whinier than others.

---

I think these two things are the most valid points, and the reason why CR cannot be trusted much for most of these things, regardless of if they have a statistically significant sampling or not... the values are skewed.

The luxury car buyer that bases a purchase on their reading of CR is far different from the luxury car buyer who is making what most would call an irrational decision, based upon showing off, perceived status, uniqueness, etc.

While this is not always the case, for the most part those that read CR are not the filthy rich. They arent the ones that have money by the truckload to throw away, and also arent the ones that give blank checks to have things done so thatthey are not bothered.

Instead, the ones that are looking at CR are the ones trying to get maximim value for their dollar (apparent value at least), and while they can afford the vehicle, are not as solidly rich as those that just toss money around. As a result, they have a hard time balancing their deisre to show off or provide some perception, with buying quality, because $100k is a lot of money.

As a result, every little thing to them is analyzed. THey want to be perfectionists, and expect a lot from their vehicles - paint got scratched easily? mark down the paint. tires are noisier than I hoped, or worse in the snow? mark down there. windows are auto down only, not auto up? mark down in another category.

Let's please remember who typically reads CR, and how they get their survey info... I dont subscribe, and so I dont get surveys... If I did, I would put full top notch marks for the apparently horrible saab 9-3, which after nearly 3 years has not given me any problems at all, and stellar fuel economy... who'da thunk it?

Watchthe demographics... its a sticky situation to have CR concentrating luxury car buyers, because they are a finnicky bunch, and those who own super expensive cars and read/base their purchases on CR are exceptions, even if their population creates a statistically significant perception.

JMH

 

[semiretired]

You're a Bimmer owner, correct?
What year did they stop making the VANOS engine?

 

[windnsea00]

Quote:

---

You're a Bimmer owner, correct?
What year did they stop making the VANOS engine?

---

Vanos is still utilized.

 

[swalve]

I agree- CR is for the perfectionist, where the only good enough IS perfection. I think what I find fault with them is when they confuse (purposefully or not) actual scientific testing versus survey results. Good example- they had some car in there in both a 4 and a 6 cylinder model. Yet they had different ratings for things like fit and finish and non-engine complaints. So one Ford Fusion (I think) gets a red dot, and one gets a black.

(They drive me nuts with other things too, but I still subscribe...)