Who makes TRUST filters ?
- Thread starter AccordMDX
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Check the sticky at the top of the page "Who makes what filter" ..it's there, I'm sure.
Thats strange, I did a search for "trust" across the entire board and this thread was not in the results (which were very few to begin with). But when I read through that thread I found that its made by Champion Labs.
I havent heard much talk about that filter here. How good is it ? Any pictures or has anyone cut it open or anything ? Any information on its filtration, flow and build quality would be helpful!
I havent heard much talk about that filter here. How good is it ? Any pictures or has anyone cut it open or anything ? Any information on its filtration, flow and build quality would be helpful!
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I imagine that its a lower quality filter designed with fewer part numbers for the individual shop to carry inventory for full coverage.
There was a lengthy, and at times, downright nasty, debate about Warners, another Champ product on the lower end (like WallMart ST filters). They had a number of failures in a lube service environment. The points of contention, mainly, were that one member (an owner of a lube service) was about the first to see issues of this type, while our membership, for a sizable majority that used ST filters, had not seen any noteworthy failures. This started an endless debate on if it was the filter ..or the service (customer not maintaining the car very well ..too long between changes ..etc.). It was really an ugly time here in the filters forum
I would imagine that they are fine filters for the 3-5k crowd that reasonably maintains their cars. They aren't for the person that finally figures out that they haven't done an oil change in a while and finally, when they got the time, got the oil changed.
There was a lengthy, and at times, downright nasty, debate about Warners, another Champ product on the lower end (like WallMart ST filters). They had a number of failures in a lube service environment. The points of contention, mainly, were that one member (an owner of a lube service) was about the first to see issues of this type, while our membership, for a sizable majority that used ST filters, had not seen any noteworthy failures. This started an endless debate on if it was the filter ..or the service (customer not maintaining the car very well ..too long between changes ..etc.). It was really an ugly time here in the filters forum
I would imagine that they are fine filters for the 3-5k crowd that reasonably maintains their cars. They aren't for the person that finally figures out that they haven't done an oil change in a while and finally, when they got the time, got the oil changed.
Here we go again...
The Champion PH2808 was one of the filters we saw the most problems with when we were cutting open all the filters several months back. many had torn or ruptured media. The real kicker was the one we cut open off of one of our employees cars. It is a low mileage Hyundai in which the owners manual states a 7500 mile oil change. The oil level is always kept full and the oil chnaged at MANUFACTURER recommended interval. We removed the filter at 7000mi cut it open and in four places the media was torn from top to bottom and the media at the seam was caved in against the center tube. I know that FG and others will say this was impossible but it was my observation FWIW.
If the media was torn, isn't that a media problem?
When you look at the Champion filters, the primary difference between the cheapies, the K&N, the Mobil 1, the Delco Ultraguard Gold is the media.
If the cheapies are made up with end runs and other surplus from the media manufacturers, eventually you're going to run into some media that's on the low end of the QC spectrum.
In this case, you literally get what you pay for.
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When you look at the Champion filters, the primary difference between the cheapies, the K&N, the Mobil 1, the Delco Ultraguard Gold is the media.
If the cheapies are made up with end runs and other surplus from the media manufacturers, eventually you're going to run into some media that's on the low end of the QC spectrum.
In this case, you literally get what you pay for.
.
Mickey_M...
There are no "end runs or surplus" as sold to filter manufacturers. Champ or anyone else.
All media is "spec'd". The media supplier sends to the filter company's lab their testing of the media before they ship to the filter company. And then the filter company ( or at least Champ does) verifies the media grade and "spec" when the media is delivered in rolls on pallets. A sample piece is cut from the roll and tested then compared to what the media supplier supplied in their test.
This happens before production gets their hands on the rolls of media.
There are no "end runs or surplus" as sold to filter manufacturers. Champ or anyone else.
All media is "spec'd". The media supplier sends to the filter company's lab their testing of the media before they ship to the filter company. And then the filter company ( or at least Champ does) verifies the media grade and "spec" when the media is delivered in rolls on pallets. A sample piece is cut from the roll and tested then compared to what the media supplier supplied in their test.
This happens before production gets their hands on the rolls of media.
Then why, on low-end Champion-made filters, does the media vary batch-to-batch?
The Mobil 1 filters spec'd a particular material from a particular vendor, and if you open up a number of them from various locations over a period of time the media is the same. I understood from friends at AC Delco the Ultraguard Gold were the same.
But if you do the same with a part number in one of the Champion private labels, it becomes clear fairly quickly that multiple media suppliers, or different batches from the same supplier, are being used.
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The Mobil 1 filters spec'd a particular material from a particular vendor, and if you open up a number of them from various locations over a period of time the media is the same. I understood from friends at AC Delco the Ultraguard Gold were the same.
But if you do the same with a part number in one of the Champion private labels, it becomes clear fairly quickly that multiple media suppliers, or different batches from the same supplier, are being used.
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Can you cite some references there Mickey? From all the wiz-bang that has come out about low end Champs ..this is nothing short of a revelation for me.
I'm not aware that anyone here has shown mulitple medias over a short span of time in any Champ filters. That is, this type one time ..then something different ..then back to the other.
..and what are you basing 'different' on
I'm not aware that anyone here has shown mulitple medias over a short span of time in any Champ filters. That is, this type one time ..then something different ..then back to the other.
..and what are you basing 'different' on
I don't have anything current.
But back when I was working I had contact with the folks who did QC in retail channels. Samples would be purchased of products to test our own QC, the QC of our suppliers, to guard against counterfeits, and to check on competitors.
It was my understanding our own filters - Mobil 1 - had a very specific media used exclusively for those filters. Ditto the AC Delco Ultraguard Gold, which were made by the same folks at Champion.
However, it was my understanding - again just from around the coffee pot discussions - that some of the lesser labels ran different media. It might well have met some spec, but it wasn't a consistent product from a single vendor.
If that is in error, my apology for bringing it into the conversation.
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But back when I was working I had contact with the folks who did QC in retail channels. Samples would be purchased of products to test our own QC, the QC of our suppliers, to guard against counterfeits, and to check on competitors.
It was my understanding our own filters - Mobil 1 - had a very specific media used exclusively for those filters. Ditto the AC Delco Ultraguard Gold, which were made by the same folks at Champion.
However, it was my understanding - again just from around the coffee pot discussions - that some of the lesser labels ran different media. It might well have met some spec, but it wasn't a consistent product from a single vendor.
If that is in error, my apology for bringing it into the conversation.
.
Not all the L 10193's I have chopped open seem to have the same media either. Of course, coming from different countries, not surprising.
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I'm not saying that you're wrong about different medias, Mickey ..at least in appearance. There can surely be process variables that can make one equivanlent media darker or lighter (yellow or brown) more than another ..yet be of the same composite/filtration level. I'm just wondering how it means that they grab "spot market" offerings for the low end stuff.
The higher end stuff may have an appearance spec for all we know that the lower stuff doesn't
...or is perhaps just supplied by one supplier that doesn't allow those process variables.
Mel could probably expand on this a bit.
note: In rereading my post it didn't quite come off the way it should have. Insert a raised eyebrow and a wisecracking guy with a smile on his face.
The higher end stuff may have an appearance spec for all we know that the lower stuff doesn't
Mel could probably expand on this a bit.
note: In rereading my post it didn't quite come off the way it should have. Insert a raised eyebrow and a wisecracking guy with a smile on his face.
The impression I was given was that with filters made to a price point buying media on the spot market played a bigger role than it did in the high-end filters.
That meant that over a period of time instead of one vendor, two or six vendors might supply media.
If you've dealt with any other commodity, like crude oil or a finished product, you know what buying on the spot market is like. Independents who used to sell gasoline bought from the majors used to do it. The gasoline was usually okay (although it might not be the seasonal blend), but over time it came from half a dozen different refineries.
That doesn't mean you don't have a standard, it just means that the standard isn't as tight as it might be for a higher-priced product.
The odds increase when you do that you're going to get a bad batch.
.
That meant that over a period of time instead of one vendor, two or six vendors might supply media.
If you've dealt with any other commodity, like crude oil or a finished product, you know what buying on the spot market is like. Independents who used to sell gasoline bought from the majors used to do it. The gasoline was usually okay (although it might not be the seasonal blend), but over time it came from half a dozen different refineries.
That doesn't mean you don't have a standard, it just means that the standard isn't as tight as it might be for a higher-priced product.
The odds increase when you do that you're going to get a bad batch.
.
Wel i've kinda explained this before.
Champ has multiple grades of media avialable to them to put inside the filter. Mobil 1 does have a "superior" grade of cellulose/synthetic blend of media.
The Duraguard Gold uses a straight synthetic media. ( and my personal favorite filter Champ builds but AC determined to stop all part numbers except GM applications.)
However, per "brand" like STP or Super Tech, etc.. there may be different medias in order to meet and exceed OEM specs. So a Toyota filter might have different media than a Ford filter. If one compares that way, yes..one might see different media in the filter. If one compares just all Toyota filters, you should see the same grade of media.
As Gary mentioned depending on the "cure" of the actual media, the color of the paper may vary.
Champ has multiple grades of media avialable to them to put inside the filter. Mobil 1 does have a "superior" grade of cellulose/synthetic blend of media.
The Duraguard Gold uses a straight synthetic media. ( and my personal favorite filter Champ builds but AC determined to stop all part numbers except GM applications.)
However, per "brand" like STP or Super Tech, etc.. there may be different medias in order to meet and exceed OEM specs. So a Toyota filter might have different media than a Ford filter. If one compares that way, yes..one might see different media in the filter. If one compares just all Toyota filters, you should see the same grade of media.
As Gary mentioned depending on the "cure" of the actual media, the color of the paper may vary.
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That never occured to me, Mel.
There you go again! Throwing another Saturday morning cartoon "One to grow on!" tidbit.
Well the other problem is one can "measure" the media physically and media's may seem the "same" that way. Doesn't mean that the "grade" or performance is the same...
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