When the DC-8 Went Supersonic

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I wasn't aware that an airliner, other than those that were built specifically to fly faster than the speed of sound (Concorde and TU-144), was on record as ever having broken the sound barrier.

I understand that it's theoretically possible, and that there are other airliners, both historical and current, that might be able to pull it off, technically.

What's more impressive, and interesting, to me, is the fact that they even got approval to do it. Astro14 and some of you other airline pilots can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think stunts like this are generally considered too risky nowadays.

It sounds like it's a good thing that the pilots were smart and experienced and knew what to do to overcome the elevator/h-stab loading they ran up against when attempting to pull it out of the dive.

I wonder if there's any technical reason why a more modern airliner, like, say, the 757 or A330, lightly loaded, as the DC-8 was, couldn't also successfully (read: remain intact while doing so, and recover from the dive) go supersonic in a dive? Would the HBPR turbofans be too much of an impediment (drag) to climbing above FL500?

I know the 707 and DC-8 both had pretty acute wing sweep angles, for speed (that's what was important back then). But the 747's wings are more highly swept than any other airliner with conventional planform. But it also has HPBR engines, which have more drag and don't make as much thrust at very high altitudes as lower-bypass ratio turbofans, or turbojets, like the original 707 had (not sure if any versions of the DC-8 ever had the turbojets).

And what about structural integrity? ALL the Douglas airplanes had a reputation for being built like a brick outhouse. Obviously the pilots were confident that the airframe could handle the stress.

Would modern jetliners hold up in an extreme maneuver like this?

See article below.

 
From the story:

"In the dive, at about 45,000 feet, it went to Mach 1.01 for maybe 16 seconds, then he recovered. But the recovery was a little scary. When he pulled back, the elevator was ineffective; it didn’t do anything, so he said, “Well, I’ll use the stabilizer,” and the stabilizer wouldn’t run. It stalled, because of the load. What he did, because he was smart, is something that no other pilot would do: He pushed over into the dive more, which relieved the load on the stabilizer. He was able to run the [stabilizer] motor, with the relieved load, and he recovered at about 35,000 feet. "

Wow, incredible.
 
I had read that the Convair 880 went supersonic several times. Both during its initial testing, and a few times in service. It was the fastest airliner ever produced, until the Convair 990 Coronado came out.

It was built by General Dynamics at the request of American Airlines. It didn't seat as many passengers as the 707 or the DC-8. But the one advantage the Convair 990 had over its rivals was speed, being 25 to 35 mph faster while cruising. I believe the Convair 990 is still the fastest airliner ever produced.... With the exception of the Concorde of course.
 
I was recently told that most modern airliners are capable of a little over supersonic?
I’ve not heard that.

There are several considerations in the “capable” determination; drag rise, thrust, controllability, structural strength, flight control limitations.

When I look at a 737, or A -320, with minimal wing sweep, I think the drag rise might be too much. The structure might not handle it either.

The A-320, for example, red lines at 0.82 IMN.

Long way from there to supersonic. The flight control logic would absolutely prohibit flight at that speed, you would have to disable the envelope protections by turning off the ELACs to even try.
 
DC8 may have transistioned near Mach 1 but I don't see how a DC8 are capable of supersonic air flow around the entire aircraft...

Subsonic...
When an airplane is flying at subsonic speed, all of the air flowing around the airplane is at a velocity of less than the speed of sound (known as
Mach 1). Keep in mind that the air accelerates when it flows over certain parts of the airplane, like the top of the wing, so an airplane flying at 500 mph could have air over the top of the wing reach a speed of 600 mph. How fast an airplane can fly and still be considered in subsonic flight varies with the design of the wing, but as a Mach number, it will typically be just over Mach 0.8.

Transonic...
When an airplane is flying at transonic speed, part of the airplane is experiencing subsonic airflow and part is experiencing supersonic airflow. Over the top of the wing, probably about halfway back, the velocity of the air will reach Mach 1 and a shock wave will form. The shock wave forms 90 degrees to the airflow and is known as a normal shock wave. Stability problems can be encountered during transonic flight, because the shock wave can cause the airflow to separate from the wing. The shock wave also causes the center of lift to shift aft, causing the nose to pitch down. The speed at which the shock wave forms is known as the critical Mach number. Transonic speed is typically between Mach 0.80 and 1.20.

Supersonic...
When an airplane is flying at supersonic speed, the entire airplane is experiencing supersonic airflow. At this speed, the shock wave which formed on top of the wing during transonic flight has moved all the way aft and has attached itself to the wing trailing edge. Supersonic speed is from Mach 1.20 to 5.0. If an airplane flies faster than Mach 5, it is said to be in hypersonic flight.


Supersonic4.jpg
 
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Already heard about the DC 8 that went super sonic ( that DC 8 was bought by Canadian Pacific which merged to become Canadian Airlines International which was later bought by Air Canada giving them new Pacific and South American routes ).

Air Canada had three fatal crashes with the DC 8 ( #1 spoilers deployed prematurely causing hard landing, high bounce/ low energy GA with engine falling off and fire and blowing up on downwind. #2. Training accident ...engines shut down and loss of control #3. high-speed dive into the ground after take-off. Suspected runway stabilizer. ).

Planes are not tested ( airliners ) to hit Mach 1 as part of certification but they come close.

IIRC, Airbus pushed ( literally.....disabled normal law over speed protections and pilots pushed it into high-speed dive ) the Airbus A380 up to Mach .96 but had to redesign part of the plane after it was damaged on the first attempt at Mach .94

I have included the story about an A380 that broke the sound barrier but, personally, don't believe it.

Every Airbus has over-speed protection that prevents the aircraft from over-speeding ( audible warning at redline but protections limit over speed starting at VMO + 6 knots or Mach 0.1 ) so it's not possible for this plane to have reached anywhere close to Mach 1 ( unless they disabled the protections to try it but why would they? News flash, it would be very loud plus vibrations, impossible to miss ).

On the A380, speed brakes automatically extend in cruise when above VMO -5.

In the simulator ( A320 ) , you can push full forward on the stick to cause an Overspeed and once 6 knots into the redline, the autopilot disconnects, side stick authority is reduced and the protections kick in. Around VMO +16 ( 16 knots too fast ) , the aircraft automatically starts to reduce the pitch even if the pilot continues to push full forward.

Two minutes super sonic, yeah right.


Emirates Airbus A380 breaks speed record, accidentally goes supersonic​




A routine service test for an Emirates Airbus A380 aircraft on April 1, 2022 has ended with a surprising result.
The aircraft, registered as A6-CJE, spent two years in storage and has recently been reactivated by the flag carrier of the United Arab Emirates. According to a source inside the company, the test was successful, with the jet reaching its maximum speed at the cruise altitude, as planned.
However, upon the completion of the test, the aircraft entered a shallow dive and started picking up speed, before breaking the sound barrier at approximately 10,000 meters (33,000 feet).

According to the source, the maximum speed the aircraft achieved was 650 knots (1,200 kilometers per hour), which is almost 70 knots (150 kilometers per hour) faster than the speed of sound at that altitude.
“We thought it is done for, we really did. But when it landed, we performed all the checks, and it turned out the plane was completely fine,” an employee of the company, who wishes to remain anonymous, told AeroTime.
Not only did the aircraft break the sound barrier, but it also maintained stable supersonic speed for over two minutes, before the engines started overheating. According to the source, only certain components sustained minor damage. For example, a drainage tube, which is used to discharge waste from the lavatory system, was clogged.

“Theoretically possible”​

There have been previous instances of subsonic commercial airplanes breaking the sound barrier in a dive. The most prominent example occurred in 1961, when Douglas DC-8 maintained the speed of Mach 1.012 for 16 seconds in a dive. However, the DC-8 had much weaker engines than the A380, and thus could not sustain such speeds for longer periods of time, or in level flight.
AeroTime contacted Solomon Epstein, the deputy chief engineer at Airbus S.A.S Propulsion Systems Attachment department. Between 1995 and 2001 Epstein oversaw the selection and fitting of Rolls-Royce Trent 900 turbofan engines during the design phase of the Airbus A380.
“Theoretically it is possible. It would be extremely dangerous, but possible. I am not at all surprised they managed to pull it off,” Epstein commented when presented with the results of the testing.
The maximum theoretical thrust of the Trent 900 is almost 380 kN (kilonewtons), Epstein explained. During a routine take-off, the engine usually produces no more than 330 kN, while during cruise flight at high altitude, no more than 90 kN is needed.
“We have tried pushing the engines up to 200 kN in cruise flight, that’s how the maximum speed of 1,020 km/h, which you can see on Wikipedia, was reached. We did not push it further, there was no need. I guess it could go faster. You have to talk to airframe guys to find out if it can go faster,” Epstein said.
AeroTime has contacted Lawrence Marvick, who was the chief structural engineer at Airbus S.A.S. at the time when the A380 was being designed. However, Marvick declined to comment, saying that he never heard anything about secret supersonic tests of the A380 prototype performed for the United Kingdom Royal Air Force (RAF) in the 1990s.

Possible commercial use​

AeroTime contacted Emirates to confirm the story. According to a spokesperson, the accidental supersonic flight during the test really happened, but the results were inconclusive in terms of getting the A380 to go supersonic during commercial operations.
“The A380 is the most prestigious aircraft in the world. Supersonic operations would be a coup for us. The test on April 1 was very promising, but we want to be cautious. A lot more testing has to be done before we know how viable it really is,” the Emirates spokesperson replied to an inquiry by AeroTime.
If implemented, even the limited ability to perform supersonic flight would vastly expand the operational envelope of the A380. At 1,200 km/h it would reach current destinations almost 50% faster, while further improvements, such as more powerful engines, are possible as well.
The General Electric GE9X, which is currently the most powerful engine in the world, has the maximum thrust of 490 kN – almost twice more than the Trent 900.
AeroTime has contacted Zapod Biblerox, an engineer at General Electric, who confirmed that the company has been discussing the sale of unspecified amount of GE9X engines to Emirates. However, the discussions have not reached an advanced stage yet.
“We had a feeling they might want to fit them on their A380s. What a beast that would be. Double the power, double the speed. Put the right pilot in, strip it down a bit, and the thing could go hypersonic,” Bibleros explained.
Hypersonic aircraft can fly five or more times faster than the speed of sound. Currently, leading aerospace manufacturers from such countries as Australia, Canada and Latvia are experimenting with hypersonic aircraft powered by environmentally friendly fuels such as hydrogen, methane and starch.

Not the first time​

According to another General Electric engineer, who works under Bibleros and expressed a desire to remain anonymous, there have been earlier reports of Airbus A380 prototypes reaching high supersonic speeds.
Reportedly, the tests were performed between 1975 and 1998 under the special supervision of the United Kingdom Secret Intelligence Service (commonly known as MI6) at the Royal Air Force (RAF) base Luton (LTN), and involved a prototype of the Airbus A380, then known as the A3XX.
The aircraft, fitted with four experimental Atomus engines, was observed reaching the speed of Mach 3 before losing control over Rendlesham Forest in Suffolk. The event caused the name of the engine to be associated with infinitesimally small particles, in reference to the pieces to which the aircraft disintegrated. That name eventually entered the English lexicon as the word Atom, which later became a scientific term for the constituent parts of matter.
“That’s Atomus for ya. 60’s technology. What, 300 kN? 400? Now imagine GE9X with almost 500 kN. Imagine an even more powerful engine. Like, improbably powerful. The jet would go like woooosh, like, really fast. Just imagine,” the GE source told Aerotime, and started making strange gestures with the broom he was holding in his hands.
According to another unconfirmed source, a US-based startup Pan American World Airways is currently discussing the possibility of purchasing several of Emirates’ A380s, renaming them Orion III in reference to the Blackburn B-25 Orion, a successful WWII fighter jet, and commencing a bi-weekly service to the Moon.
 
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DC - 8 doesn’t have overspeed protection. The A380 does and won’t allow the speed to much higher than max cruise ( maybe 16 knots ).

So, to go from a “routine test flight” ( max cruise ) to super sonic for two minutes even though the aircraft won’t allow it to happen seems “realistic“ to me.

The test pilots on the DC 8 didn’t need to disable anything to exceed MMO in order to break the sound barrier except pull a circuit breaker to silence the over speed warning probably.

They just needed guts and skill ( and approval ).

My airline had lots of aircraft stored because of the pandemic and bringing them back into service required tests flights. I never heard of any pilots disabling protections to conduct the return to service tests. The whole purpose of having those protections is to, well, protect the flight envelope.

None of Return to service test flights could exceed the sound barrier no matter how hard they tried ( or “accidentally “ ) because of over speed protection ( not that they would ever try ).
 
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I could see the 747 exceeding Mach 1 - the wing is swept back, it has lots of power, it‘s a very strong airframe.

The rumor is that Air China exceeded Mach 1, and pulled nearly 5 G, double the airplane limit load, in a dive, when they lost control of a 747.

That‘s a strong airliner.

 
I could see the 747 exceeding Mach 1 - the wing is swept back, it has lots of power, it‘s a very strong airframe.

The rumor is that Air China exceeded Mach 1, and pulled nearly 5 G, double the airplane limit load, in a dive, when they lost control of a 747.

That‘s a strong airliner.

That 747 lost a number of parts in the dive.

Not recommended.
 
To lose 30,000 feet in just over 2 minutes would require a lot of speed ,even with speed brakes out

A testament to how strongly built it was that it was not written off structurally and continued flying after repairs.
 
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To lose 30,000 feet in just over 2 minutes would require a lot of speed ,even with speed brakes out

A testament to how strongly built it was that it was not written off structurally and continued flying after repairs.
That's a vertical speed of about 150 knots; what's the worry?
 
That's a vertical speed of about 150 knots; what's the worry?
The high G forces the plane experienced due to the extreme speed/high rate of descent when the recovery from the dive was initiated.

The plane was descending at approximately 15,000 FPM and recovered from the dive at 9,600 feet.

9,600 feet sounds like lots of height/altitude to safely level off but it’s not when descending 15,000 FPM. Thats why it experienced a high G load.

The China Airlines flight was descending extremely fast ( airspeed ) and with an extremely high rate of descent.

Air France 447 crash off the Brazilian coast. Same thing. Coming down so fast, and in deep stall, it would have required around 10,000 altitude to recover even if they had tried. It was all over when they started to fight things out ….” 10 degrees” ( pitch comment by Captain ).

AF 447 was not descending fast ( deep stall ) speed wise but it also had a very high rate of descent Plus other factors ( trim ).
 
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DC8 went to Mach 1.01 for maybe 16 seconds but that is Transonic flight
specifically in the range of (Mach 0.80 to Mach 1.20) and more
importantly Transonic flight is not Super Sonic flight which is
objectively (Mach 1.20 to Mach 5)... We know that anything travels
faster than the speed of sound (i.e., breaks the sound barrier) a loud
boom is heard... no boom no dice... get back up there and try again...

Facts are DC8 failed to reach critical Mach 1.20 and no report of
a loud boom... so objectively speaking this flight did not go Supersonic...
 
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I am sure the DC 8 didn’t take from the factory ( Long Beach IIRC ) and do it over downtown LA.

They don’t exceed the sound barrier where people live. Probably did the test over the desert.

Funny how Chuck Yeager caused a “loud boom” when he only reached Max 1.06.

I learned something I didn’t realize that some aircraft don’t generate loud booms exceeding Mach one while some aircraft do.

Wish BA, AF and Braniff airlines knew that so they could have flown at least Mach 1.01 ( DC 8 ) when either approaching JFK, IAD, MIA, YYZ or when u.s crews with Braniff had to fly the Concorde below Mach 1 to avoid “ loud booms over the continental U.S doing domestic flights.

The U.S airforce slightly exceed Mach 1 accidentally at an air show in Ottawa, Canada in the 1960s and people recalled hearing a “ loud boom“

Lots of windows were broken.
 
Already heard about the DC 8 that went super sonic ( that DC 8 was bought by Canadian Pacific which merged to become Canadian Airlines International which was later bought by Air Canada giving them new Pacific and South American routes ).

Air Canada had three fatal crashes with the DC 8 ( #1 spoilers deployed prematurely causing hard landing, high bounce/ low energy GA with engine falling off and fire and blowing up on downwind. #2. Training accident ...engines shut down and loss of control #3. high-speed dive into the ground after take-off. Suspected runway stabilizer. ).

Planes are not tested ( airliners ) to hit Mach 1 as part of certification but they come close.

IIRC, Airbus pushed ( literally.....disabled normal law over speed protections and pilots pushed it into high-speed dive ) the Airbus A380 up to Mach .96 but had to redesign part of the pane after it was damaged on the first attempt at Mach .94

I have included the story about an A380 that broke the sound barrier but, personally, don't believe it.

Every Airbus has over-speed protection that prevents the aircraft from over-speeding ( audible warning at redline but protections limit over speed starting at VMO + 6 knots or Mach 0.1 ) so it's not possible for this plane to have reached anywhere close to Mach 1 ( unless they disabled the protections to try it but why would they? News flash, it would be very loud plus vibrations, impossible to miss ).

On the A380, speed brakes automatically extend in cruise when above VMO -5.

In the simulator ( A320 ) , you can push full forward on the stick to cause an Overspeed and once 6 knots into the redline, the autopilot disconnects, side stick authority is reduced and the protections kick in. Around VMO +16 ( 16 knots too fast ) , the aircraft automatically starts to reduce the pitch even if the pilot continues to push full forward.

Two minutes super sonic, yeah right.


Emirates Airbus A380 breaks speed record, accidentally goes supersonic​


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A routine service test for an Emirates Airbus A380 aircraft on April 1, 2022 has ended with a surprising result.
The aircraft, registered as A6-CJE, spent two years in storage and has recently been reactivated by the flag carrier of the United Arab Emirates. According to a source inside the company, the test was successful, with the jet reaching its maximum speed at the cruise altitude, as planned.
However, upon the completion of the test, the aircraft entered a shallow dive and started picking up speed, before breaking the sound barrier at approximately 10,000 meters (33,000 feet).

According to the source, the maximum speed the aircraft achieved was 650 knots (1,200 kilometers per hour), which is almost 70 knots (150 kilometers per hour) faster than the speed of sound at that altitude.
“We thought it is done for, we really did. But when it landed, we performed all the checks, and it turned out the plane was completely fine,” an employee of the company, who wishes to remain anonymous, told AeroTime.
Not only did the aircraft break the sound barrier, but it also maintained stable supersonic speed for over two minutes, before the engines started overheating. According to the source, only certain components sustained minor damage. For example, a drainage tube, which is used to discharge waste from the lavatory system, was clogged.

“Theoretically possible”​

There have been previous instances of subsonic commercial airplanes breaking the sound barrier in a dive. The most prominent example occurred in 1961, when Douglas DC-8 maintained the speed of Mach 1.012 for 16 seconds in a dive. However, the DC-8 had much weaker engines than the A380, and thus could not sustain such speeds for longer periods of time, or in level flight.
AeroTime contacted Solomon Epstein, the deputy chief engineer at Airbus S.A.S Propulsion Systems Attachment department. Between 1995 and 2001 Epstein oversaw the selection and fitting of Rolls-Royce Trent 900 turbofan engines during the design phase of the Airbus A380.
“Theoretically it is possible. It would be extremely dangerous, but possible. I am not at all surprised they managed to pull it off,” Epstein commented when presented with the results of the testing.
The maximum theoretical thrust of the Trent 900 is almost 380 kN (kilonewtons), Epstein explained. During a routine take-off, the engine usually produces no more than 330 kN, while during cruise flight at high altitude, no more than 90 kN is needed.
“We have tried pushing the engines up to 200 kN in cruise flight, that’s how the maximum speed of 1,020 km/h, which you can see on Wikipedia, was reached. We did not push it further, there was no need. I guess it could go faster. You have to talk to airframe guys to find out if it can go faster,” Epstein said.
AeroTime has contacted Lawrence Marvick, who was the chief structural engineer at Airbus S.A.S. at the time when the A380 was being designed. However, Marvick declined to comment, saying that he never heard anything about secret supersonic tests of the A380 prototype performed for the United Kingdom Royal Air Force (RAF) in the 1990s.

Possible commercial use​

AeroTime contacted Emirates to confirm the story. According to a spokesperson, the accidental supersonic flight during the test really happened, but the results were inconclusive in terms of getting the A380 to go supersonic during commercial operations.
“The A380 is the most prestigious aircraft in the world. Supersonic operations would be a coup for us. The test on April 1 was very promising, but we want to be cautious. A lot more testing has to be done before we know how viable it really is,” the Emirates spokesperson replied to an inquiry by AeroTime.
If implemented, even the limited ability to perform supersonic flight would vastly expand the operational envelope of the A380. At 1,200 km/h it would reach current destinations almost 50% faster, while further improvements, such as more powerful engines, are possible as well.
The General Electric GE9X, which is currently the most powerful engine in the world, has the maximum thrust of 490 kN – almost twice more than the Trent 900.
AeroTime has contacted Zapod Biblerox, an engineer at General Electric, who confirmed that the company has been discussing the sale of unspecified amount of GE9X engines to Emirates. However, the discussions have not reached an advanced stage yet.
“We had a feeling they might want to fit them on their A380s. What a beast that would be. Double the power, double the speed. Put the right pilot in, strip it down a bit, and the thing could go hypersonic,” Bibleros explained.
Hypersonic aircraft can fly five or more times faster than the speed of sound. Currently, leading aerospace manufacturers from such countries as Australia, Canada and Latvia are experimenting with hypersonic aircraft powered by environmentally friendly fuels such as hydrogen, methane and starch.

Not the first time​

According to another General Electric engineer, who works under Bibleros and expressed a desire to remain anonymous, there have been earlier reports of Airbus A380 prototypes reaching high supersonic speeds.
Reportedly, the tests were performed between 1975 and 1998 under the special supervision of the United Kingdom Secret Intelligence Service (commonly known as MI6) at the Royal Air Force (RAF) base Luton (LTN), and involved a prototype of the Airbus A380, then known as the A3XX.
The aircraft, fitted with four experimental Atomus engines, was observed reaching the speed of Mach 3 before losing control over Rendlesham Forest in Suffolk. The event caused the name of the engine to be associated with infinitesimally small particles, in reference to the pieces to which the aircraft disintegrated. That name eventually entered the English lexicon as the word Atom, which later became a scientific term for the constituent parts of matter.
“That’s Atomus for ya. 60’s technology. What, 300 kN? 400? Now imagine GE9X with almost 500 kN. Imagine an even more powerful engine. Like, improbably powerful. The jet would go like woooosh, like, really fast. Just imagine,” the GE source told Aerotime, and started making strange gestures with the broom he was holding in his hands.
According to another unconfirmed source, a US-based startup Pan American World Airways is currently discussing the possibility of purchasing several of Emirates’ A380s, renaming them Orion III in reference to the Blackburn B-25 Orion, a successful WWII fighter jet, and commencing a bi-weekly service to the Moon.
“The test on April 1st was very promising,” yeah, as an April Fools article.
 
I’ve seen the shockwave start to form at about 0.96 Mach. The boom is present when the shockwave forms.

The faster you go, the more defined the shockwave, and the louder the boom.

1.05 gives you a very loud boom when done at sea level.
 
That makes sense then why the Concorde could only fly Mach .95 over land IIRC.

Here is that ( cool ) true story about the broken windows in Ottawa on August 5, 1959.

Broke windows in the new airport which delayed its opening.

Aircraft was an F104 and it reached 660 Knots ( before we went metric….says 760 MPH ) if I read the small print correctly.

Canada later bought the F104 and built it under licence.

 
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