What makes Honda 4 cylinder engines great?

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Char Baby
A person would have had to drive the competition side-by-side in order to see how well Honda sweat the details. Not only in their drivetrain but the rest of the car too. Fit & finish, user friendliness, solid construction, smooth controls(Honda Easy), driving position, pedal placement, 360 deg outward vision, Cd(aerodynamics) and the list goes on and on!

Not only were Honda drivetrains the benchmark of the industry, so was the rest of the car(s). Many terms by the PRESS came from Honda automobiles such as "Honda Easy", "teffelon coated feeling", "feels and drives like it cost thousands more"

Today it's a different story. There are more and more really good vehicles to choose from, making Honda "not the only game in town". I've even moved away from Honda because I don't want to missout on other MFGs good offerings.

A story of a parts company marketing guy at 2 car companies, Honda and 1 of the Detroit big 3.

The guy showed new part to the Honda representatives, the first question was how the part works and they tried it and asked more questions about the part, the last question was the cost of the part.

The same part was shown to the Detroit big 3, the first question (before they touch the part) was how much it costs, the second question was can the cost be reduced.

Honda guys paid attentions to quality first, cost second. The other guys cared only about cost, how it works is secondary.

 

[NJC]

Originally Posted By: NJC
Originally Posted By: Scott_Tucker
This is where parts are divided into groups based on dimensional tolerances. For example, if a crank journal is supposed to be 2.000" +/- .001" then they might be divided into three groups - 1.999", 2.000", and 2.001".

but my 1984 Accord shop manual has the tolerance blocks you describe - grouped in A, B, C (and maybe D). But the tolerances were much tighter than .001" (25.4µm), but rather 6µm if I recall correctly.

As per the shop manual above, 1984 - top left .006mm = 6µm

 

[Scott_Tucker]

Yes, that was exactly what I was talking about. The tolerance spec I gave was just an example with a nice round number. .006 mm would be about .00025" so you can see how closely they try to hold the tolerances. From what I was taught, Honda was the first to start doing this but I may be wrong. Control of clearances definitely has a big impact on the overall reliability of the mechanical components of the engine.

 

[OVERKILL]

Ford in the 80's, at least on the V8's had hand sized and balanced rods. The 302HO rod caps were all ground and stamped with their respective bore number.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
A story of a parts company marketing guy at 2 car companies, Honda and 1 of the Detroit big 3.

The guy showed new part to the Honda representatives, the first question was how the part works and they tried it and asked more questions about the part, the last question was the cost of the part.

The same part was shown to the Detroit big 3, the first question (before they touch the part) was how much it costs, the second question was can the cost be reduced.

Honda guys paid attentions to quality first, cost second. The other guys cared only about cost, how it works is secondary.



Nice anecdote, I don't believe a word of it.

 

[JetStar]

Originally Posted By: NJC
Originally Posted By: NJC
Originally Posted By: Scott_Tucker
This is where parts are divided into groups based on dimensional tolerances. For example, if a crank journal is supposed to be 2.000" +/- .001" then they might be divided into three groups - 1.999", 2.000", and 2.001".

but my 1984 Accord shop manual has the tolerance blocks you describe - grouped in A, B, C (and maybe D). But the tolerances were much tighter than .001" (25.4µm), but rather 6µm if I recall correctly.

As per the shop manual above, 1984 - top left .006mm = 6µm


I first ran into this first hand on a Yamaha dirt bike cylinder. There were A,B, and C cylinders with corresponding piston sizes.

 

[Indydriver]

The answer to the Op's question is clearly: motorcycles. The founder of the company Soichiro Honda was an engineer of engine parts. He was always developing parts and methods to squeeze more hp/liter. His big breakthrough was the original 750-4 inline, air-cooled four. If you spend your life making HO air cooled fours, how easy would it be to build a 200hp water-cooled four for a car? Pretty easy. Oh yeah, all his engineers spent time early in their careers on Honda's various race teams. So, it became a cultural thing.

I still have in my barn one of the original 1983 Interceptors. Nearly 30 years old, this early 750cc water-cooled V-4 put out 100hp/liter with an 11,500 rpm redline, had the first square section frame, air adjustable forks and rear shock. What a technological tour-de-force. As Honda got bigger and became a 'car first' company, it lost the high performance, race bred culture of it's founder.

 

[bustednutz]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
A story of a parts company marketing guy at 2 car companies, Honda and 1 of the Detroit big 3.

The guy showed new part to the Honda representatives, the first question was how the part works and they tried it and asked more questions about the part, the last question was the cost of the part.

The same part was shown to the Detroit big 3, the first question (before they touch the part) was how much it costs, the second question was can the cost be reduced.

Honda guys paid attentions to quality first, cost second. The other guys cared only about cost, how it works is secondary.



Nice anecdote, I don't believe a word of it.


Whats so hard to belive about it? Ever hear of a man named W.Edward Deming? He brought the idea of quality to the big 3 and they shunned him. He took the idea to Japan and they embraced it.
The big 3's attitude in this anecdote is quite apparent in their design and their extreme failures.
Side by side the Japanese vehicles fit and finish has always rivaled that of American vehicles. Whether is was a 1982 Toyota vs 1982 Oldsmobile.... And their engine quality.........top notch. Yep, I expect to be flamed for it......

 

[SteveSRT8]

Sorry, Ben, but simple observation of the car biz yields me a different answer. I firmly believe that the 'bean counters' run the car biz.

Every single aspect of the vehicle now must pass scrutiny by the accountants.

And anyone who thinks it is a problem unique to American cars is misinformed!

 

[mechtech2]

Originally Posted By: bustednutz
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
A story of a parts company marketing guy at 2 car companies, Honda and 1 of the Detroit big 3.

The guy showed new part to the Honda representatives, the first question was how the part works and they tried it and asked more questions about the part, the last question was the cost of the part.

The same part was shown to the Detroit big 3, the first question (before they touch the part) was how much it costs, the second question was can the cost be reduced.

Honda guys paid attentions to quality first, cost second. The other guys cared only about cost, how it works is secondary.



Nice anecdote, I don't believe a word of it.


Whats so hard to belive about it? Ever hear of a man named W.Edward Deming? He brought the idea of quality to the big 3 and they shunned him. He took the idea to Japan and they embraced it.
The big 3's attitude in this anecdote is quite apparent in their design and their extreme failures.
Side by side the Japanese vehicles fit and finish has always rivaled that of American vehicles. Whether is was a 1982 Toyota vs 1982 Oldsmobile.... And their engine quality.........top notch. Yep, I expect to be flamed for it......


Also note 'TUCKER'!

 

[tommygunn]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Honda doing "better fuel delivery"? Are you aware of the fact that Honda was essentially the last holdout on fuel injection? They were doing carburetors long after every other manufacturer had gone fully fuel injected. Honda was doing fuel injector only on their top of the line "i" trims, rest of the trim levels were getting Mikunis(?) and Kevins(?) along with few miles of vacuum hoses under the hood.

My guess is that Ford had been doing EEC and fuel injections for many years before first PGM-Fi Honda came on the market. And even after that Honda needed few years before it became standard on all models and trim.

We always have rose color glasses when fondly looking at the history but the reality is usually little different than our recollection.


There's nothing wrong with their carbureted engines. During the 80s, the electronics controls hadn't advanced that far yet. Heck, the first generation CRX HF was the highest MPG car in its time. It even beats today's hybrids in terms of efficiency.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
A story of a parts company marketing guy at 2 car companies, Honda and 1 of the Detroit big 3.

The guy showed new part to the Honda representatives, the first question was how the part works and they tried it and asked more questions about the part, the last question was the cost of the part.

The same part was shown to the Detroit big 3, the first question (before they touch the part) was how much it costs, the second question was can the cost be reduced.

Honda guys paid attentions to quality first, cost second. The other guys cared only about cost, how it works is secondary.



Nice anecdote, I don't believe a word of it.

Back in the 80's and 90's 80-90% of Detroit big 3 executives were accountants while 80-90% of Honda, Toyota ... executives had engineer degree.

Companies ran by accountants is different with companies ran by engineers.

 

[SteveSRT8]

^^^There it is. Now most decisions MUST be approved for cost before moving forward.

 

[edwardh1]

they balance the engines better.
the toy 4 cyl have a balance shaft, the hondas are also very smooth.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
A story of a parts company marketing guy at 2 car companies, Honda and 1 of the Detroit big 3.

The guy showed new part to the Honda representatives, the first question was how the part works and they tried it and asked more questions about the part, the last question was the cost of the part.

The same part was shown to the Detroit big 3, the first question (before they touch the part) was how much it costs, the second question was can the cost be reduced.

Honda guys paid attentions to quality first, cost second. The other guys cared only about cost, how it works is secondary.



Nice anecdote, I don't believe a word of it.

Back in the 80's and 90's 80-90% of Detroit big 3 executives were accountants while 80-90% of Honda, Toyota ... executives had engineer degree.

Companies ran by accountants is different with companies ran by engineers.


W. Edwards Deming was working with Ford in the '80s.

I think the anecdote is a fabrication created by Japanese car aficionados to give them the warm and fuzzies. I've heard this anecdote myself, but it's always curiously devoid of facts, names, or references.

About the only time I could even conceive of something like this occurring would be in the 70s, the era when Detroit really was too big for its britches.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
And anyone who thinks it is a problem unique to American cars is misinformed!


If you buy the anecdote, that's exactly what you're implying.

 

[ueberooo]

I like the lean burn and long stroke efficiency aspect of these engines.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
And anyone who thinks it is a problem unique to American cars is misinformed!


If you buy the anecdote, that's exactly what you're implying.


Naaah, it's obvious that in the last couple of decades that cost has become much more important. So now the bean counters simply play a much more important role where the engineers used to be able to run wild without restrictions. Everything is computer modeled now first, and then built and tested. Because it is cheaper!

Very different from the old days when parts and pieces were beefy as heck and severely over-engineered with huge margins.

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
[Everything is computer modeled now first, and then built and tested. Because it is cheaper!


Everything is computer modeled now first, and then built and tested. Because it is cheaper!

Fixed that for you Steve.

Ed

 

[Scott_Tucker]

Everything is computer modeled because it produces better results, not necessarily because it is cheaper. You get better prototypes out of the box.