What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Kinda cracks me up now. 24 pages of intense speculation, wild conjecture, heated arguments and mental masturbation. Gotta love BITOGers.


You got that right. The only person that had any first hand experience was driven off this thread and the only reason that I can think of now, is that the things you mentioned can continue on.


I'll add that from the view point of the OP I have found allot of great information that has provided me with a knowledgeable perspective on my Honda Pilot engine dilemma that I would not have found otherwise. I have read every word, appreciate every post, and all in all have found it to be quite valuable. I have also had the good fortune to communicate with Trav offline and he also remains quite helpful. There have been some pretty strong common theories, mostly around what happens with an engine that runs hot in the front cylinder bank, and a maintenance minder that takes conventional oil over 10,000 miles in this hot engine. When you boil everything down, (excuse the pun) I think it paint a pretty clear picture of what happened here. The dealer is suppose to have the new cam in my engine today and I'll let you know how she runs.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Adam, thanks for the update. I hope it runs real well for you in the future.

Now the big question...what are you going to do about oil changes in the future? Do you have a particular oil type/brand and an oil change interval in mind?

 

[Vikas]

Can you explain the purpose of the rear cam picture, especially the comment about being worse etc?

Please correct if I am understanding this correctly.

1) Front bank is making noises
2) Front bank is "cooked" bank
3) Front bank is the one which NEVER shuts off in the ECO mode
4) Rear bank looked like new as far as previous pictures were concerned.

If all of the above is correct, what is there wear on the rear i.e. "good" cam lobe? Are you being told "Look how bad the good cam lobe is; imagine how worse the bad must be!"

Since Honda has not yet accepted to cover this repair, are you on the hook for whatever dealer is doing to your vehicle? Is dealer picking up the partial costs?

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Adam, thanks for the update. I hope it runs real well for you in the future.

Now the big question...what are you going to do about oil changes in the future? Do you have a particular oil type/brand and an oil change interval in mind?


Until I can research a very interesting type of oil that Trav recommended, I am going to run Mobil 1 EP and change it every 5000 miles. I just now received four quarts of Kreen and am reviewing the previous posts for cleaning recommendations.

 

[Bladecutter]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Can you explain the purpose of the rear cam picture, especially the comment about being worse etc?


Purpose of rear cam lobe picture is to show that:

1: the cold side of the engine isn't nearly as bad as the front side of the engine.
2: the specific cam lobe shown was the worst of the cold side cam lobes.
3: That worst cam lobe is still in considerably better shape than any of the cam lobes from the hot side of the motor.
4: The oil did fully fail in the ability to protect the internals of the engine due to the fact that there's that much wear on a cool part of the engine.

Honestly, if it were my car, I would pull off a couple main bearing caps, and connecting rod bearing caps, and see what condition the crankshaft bearings and journals are in.

If the cold side cam lobes look that bad, I really don't have any reason to believe the crankshaft is in any better condition.

BC.

 

[Bladecutter]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Until I can research a very interesting type of oil that Trav recommended,


Is it an ester based oil?

BC.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Adam, thanks for the update. I hope it runs real well for you in the future.

Now the big question...what are you going to do about oil changes in the future? Do you have a particular oil type/brand and an oil change interval in mind?


Until I can research a very interesting type of oil that Trav recommended, I am going to run Mobil 1 EP and change it every 5000 miles. I just now received four quarts of Kreen and am reviewing the previous posts for cleaning recommendations.


Trav won't steer you wrong. We discussed this at length, use the Kreen the way he tells you, the oil he suggested, and totally ignore the OLM, and you'll be fine going forward. JMO

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Based on that one pic:

a) I don't see much sludge or varnish, so that 10K interval didn't hurt you, and;

b) there's nothing seriously wrong with that lobe and, by association if it's the worst, the others, and likely the followers either. So what's the cause of the noise, then?

Kinda cracks me up now. 24 pages of intense speculation, wild conjecture, heated arguments and mental masturbation. Gotta love BITOGers.

So true. I didn't post in this topic until now because all I saw was speculation.

 

[yonyon]

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Can you explain the purpose of the rear cam picture, especially the comment about being worse etc?


Purpose of rear cam lobe picture is to show that:

1: the cold side of the engine isn't nearly as bad as the front side of the engine.
2: the specific cam lobe shown was the worst of the cold side cam lobes.
3: That worst cam lobe is still in considerably better shape than any of the cam lobes from the hot side of the motor.
4: The oil did fully fail in the ability to protect the internals of the engine due to the fact that there's that much wear on a cool part of the engine.

Honestly, if it were my car, I would pull off a couple main bearing caps, and connecting rod bearing caps, and see what condition the crankshaft bearings and journals are in.

If the cold side cam lobes look that bad, I really don't have any reason to believe the crankshaft is in any better condition.

BC.


The bottom end bearings really shouldn't be too bad. With one bank shut down that's every other cylinder in the bottom end, not a group of adjacent cylinders as it is in the top end. These bearings were being fed just as great a volume of oil fresh from the pump without preheating it in a hot head and without so much exposure to air. The rod bearings and wristpins would be under higher pressure for the power demand, but that's higher pressure at low power demand. Considering also that there was no observed rod knock accompanying the valvetrain tick it would be a huge waste to open up the bottom end just "to have a look-see" as it were. Add in the slight possibility someone makes an error when tightening a bolt and causes catastrophic engine failure, well, just say no.

Edit:
This of course, unless Trav can advise otherwise based on personal experience. Firsthand experience trumps conjecture any day.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Can you explain the purpose of the rear cam picture, especially the comment about being worse etc?

Please correct if I am understanding this correctly.

1) Front bank is making noises
2) Front bank is "cooked" bank
3) Front bank is the one which NEVER shuts off in the ECO mode
4) Rear bank looked like new as far as previous pictures were concerned.

If all of the above is correct, what is there wear on the rear i.e. "good" cam lobe? Are you being told "Look how bad the good cam lobe is; imagine how worse the bad must be!"

Since Honda has not yet accepted to cover this repair, are you on the hook for whatever dealer is doing to your vehicle? Is dealer picking up the partial costs?


Thanks, and allow me to clarify. The dealer took a picture of what he considered to be the most worn (worst) lobe on the rear cam. I believe his point was that if that lobe wast the worst of all of the lobes on the rear cam then the overall rear can was in good shape and required no further attention on his part. The numbered statements are basically correct but I'll add that the front bank never shuts down in 3-cylinder ECO mode, but one of the three (the really dark one) does shut down in 4-cylinder mode while two of the rear cylinders are running. So far both the dealer or manufacturer have denied any warranty assistance.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Until I can research a very interesting type of oil that Trav recommended,


Is it an ester based oil?

BC.


It was Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 which is somewhat tricky to find around these parts. I believe you can read about it on Mobil's German website Mobil1.de. Trav mentioned to me that the closest thing we have in this country is Mobil 1 0w40.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

OP's Update: This afternoon I picked up my Honda Pilot, with a new front cam and PCV valve, from my local dealer and it seems about the same as it did at 75,000 miles before the ticking began. They charged me $582.41 this time and $197.77 of an estimated $400 last time when they attempted to adjust the valves but could not. So I'm out $780.18 plus many hours of time spent on this issue.

Both Honda America and my dealer offered no warranty assistance, although my dealer did only charge me half the amount he quoted for a valve job that didn't help. He also opened the engine up for me a second time for free, and looked at both cams without charge. But because he did not close the engine back up before he did the cam replacement it appears that I actually paid for the dis-assembly you saw in the pictures in with the cost of the cam replacement. He also gave me a labor discount which totaled $14. So no one is doing me any real favors except you folks.

The Honda America case manager told me today that there is nothing they can do because, "There is no proof of an engine defect". I told her there was plenty of proof, and I asked her if she had reviewed our pictures and she said, "We can not rely on third party information". I told her I was not a third party, I am a first party to this and that both my pictures and the dealer's own pictures had been taken at the Honda dealer's shop. She then said that the denial had been based on a discussion with the dealer, the Honda Area Rep, and their internal managers. The impression I received was that it was simply her job to say no.

I told both her and the dealer I would be happy to roll with that if anyone at Honda could give me a reason why this engine shouldn't be covered under warranty when the engine had an obvious fault for almost the entire time it was under warranty. To this question the unanimous answer I'm getting from Honda is 'I don't know'. Well of course they know! They just can't rightly say. I'm having a face-to-face meeting with the Regional Honda Rep this Friday. We'll see what he says.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

As I consider engine cleaning with Kreen I am reviewing a couple documents from Honda. They were handed to me without an obvious copyright mark and not marked confidential so I thought I would share them with you. One is an internal memo advising against oil changes before the maintenance minder advises, advising against engine flushing, advising against oil or gas additives, and all kinds of interesting things. My read of this feels more about marketing then of automotive substance. In my communications business we recognize these as FUD documents, which stands for Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. See for yourself:

Honda Service Memo

The other document is an explanation of how the VCM works in 6, 3, and 4 cylinder mode. Also interesting reading:

Honda VCM Explained

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
As I consider engine cleaning with Kreen I am reviewing a couple documents from Honda. They were handed to me without an obvious copyright mark and not marked confidential so I thought I would share them with you. One is an internal memo advising against oil changes before the maintenance minder advises, advising against engine flushing, advising against oil or gas additives, and all kinds of interesting things. My read of this feels more about marketing then of automotive substance. In my communications business we recognize these as FUD documents, which stands for Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. See for yourself:

Honda Service Memo

The other document is an explanation of how the VCM works in 6, 3, and 4 cylinder mode. Also interesting reading:

Honda VCM Explained


Maybe you should send those Honda Engineers pics of your engine, so they can see first hand how their cutting edge engine held up following their MM. Maybe they'll take a long hard look, and rethink things.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
As I consider engine cleaning with Kreen I am reviewing a couple documents from Honda. They were handed to me without an obvious copyright mark and not marked confidential so I thought I would share them with you. One is an internal memo advising against oil changes before the maintenance minder advises, advising against engine flushing, advising against oil or gas additives, and all kinds of interesting things. My read of this feels more about marketing then of automotive substance. In my communications business we recognize these as FUD documents, which stands for Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. See for yourself:

Honda Service Memo

The other document is an explanation of how the VCM works in 6, 3, and 4 cylinder mode. Also interesting reading:

Honda VCM Explained


Maybe you should send those Honda Engineers pics of your engine, so they can see first hand how their cutting edge engine held up following their MM. Maybe they'll take a long hard look, and rethink things.

The dealer said my pics were forwarded today, after the Honda Case Manager said no. Interesting, maybe someone is feeling a little heat, like the front cylinders of this engine.

 

[demarpaint]

Good on you, don't back down!

 

[demarpaint]

I'd send some pics to the oil company who said you can run their oil till the MM says to change it. These blanket statements are what gets oil companies in trouble too.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
As I consider engine cleaning with Kreen I am reviewing a couple documents from Honda. They were handed to me without an obvious copyright mark and not marked confidential so I thought I would share them with you. One is an internal memo advising against oil changes before the maintenance minder advises, advising against engine flushing, advising against oil or gas additives, and all kinds of interesting things. My read of this feels more about marketing then of automotive substance. In my communications business we recognize these as FUD documents, which stands for Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. See for yourself:

Honda Service Memo

The other document is an explanation of how the VCM works in 6, 3, and 4 cylinder mode. Also interesting reading:

Honda VCM Explained


You need to find out who her boss is.

You need to clearly state that the dealer oil - standard conventional oil will NOT withstand the OLM. (which you have told them, I'm sure) It's not a warranty thing, it's just a truth thing. They are not telling the truth and you are out $700+.

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Until I can research a very interesting type of oil that Trav recommended,


Is it an ester based oil?

BC.


It was Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 which is somewhat tricky to find around these parts. I believe you can read about it on Mobil's German website Mobil1.de. Trav mentioned to me that the closest thing we have in this country is Mobil 1 0w40.

Mobil 1 EP 5w30 should be more than up to the task. And there's always the trusty Rotella T6 5w40. The T6 would have no trouble with heat. Clean it up too. Both available at Walmart.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Until I can research a very interesting type of oil that Trav recommended,


Is it an ester based oil?

BC.


It was Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 which is somewhat tricky to find around these parts. I believe you can read about it on Mobil's German website Mobil1.de. Trav mentioned to me that the closest thing we have in this country is Mobil 1 0w40.

Mobil 1 EP 5w30 should be more than up to the task. And there's always the trusty Rotella T6 5w40. The T6 would have no trouble with heat. Clean it up too. Both available at Walmart.


Yes it is interesting, the comments that Honda runs 5W-20 here in the US for better mileage ratings, but 5W-30 in other countries. Because my Honda dealer runs Mobil I'll not complicate the issue with another brand right now but I will run synthetic Mobil EP until I get this settled with them (and I DO plan on getting this settled with Honda).