What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

[Rob_Roy]

Hey guys, just a thought...are we sure a shorter OCI is going to help much? Adam's picture of the squeaky clean rear valve train seems to indicate that he wasn't exhausting the oil's ability to keep solids suspended. Just wondering if a short OCI may not be enough.

Maybe I missed it, but did the PCV in Adam's engine get checked?

 

[4ever4d]

Originally Posted By: yesthatsteve
It seems to me that Honda failed to calibrate this engine's OLM to account for long stretches of highway driving on only 3 cylinders, which the OP does a lot of. The complexity of the design, an OLM calibrated for less-sophisticated technology, and moving that weight on 3 cylinders for much of the vehicle's operation looks to be a perfect storm for sludge in this application. I think the reason forums haven't been bombarded with similar situations is the OP's highway driving takes up a larger percentage of the vehicle's use than it does for most other drivers.

Firing on all 6 cylinders, a 10k OCI *might* be reasonable under those driving conditions, and I suspect the OLM thinks so, too.

+1 I think you hit the nail on the head and synth oil isn't going to help without recalibration or shorter oci's.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
Hey guys, just a thought...are we sure a shorter OCI is going to help much? Adam's picture of the squeaky clean rear valve train seems to indicate that he wasn't exhausting the oil's ability to keep solids suspended. Just wondering if a short OCI may not be enough.



A shorter OCI might have helped a little, and a premium synthetic a little more, maybe. The truth is the engine design is at fault, and no matter what, oil alone can't make up for a design flaw.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
Hey guys, just a thought...are we sure a shorter OCI is going to help much? Adam's picture of the squeaky clean rear valve train seems to indicate that he wasn't exhausting the oil's ability to keep solids suspended. Just wondering if a short OCI may not be enough.

Maybe I missed it, but did the PCV in Adam's engine get checked?


Remember I spoke with a tech at Mobil who told me that the conventional Mobil Super oil that my dealer has been using is recommended by Mobil to run up to 5,000 miles. The oil is also guaranteed to run as long as the manufacturer specifies, but this must be, by the very nature of the warranty statement,an obvious matter of business politics then of automotive precision. The Mobil tech added that after 5,000 miles the oil would continue to lubricate, however the additive packages, including the detergents, would begin to break down after that. That's exactly what we are seeing here. In the case of my engine the oil ran fine in the rear cylinders, but not in the front. My conclusion it that engine conditions in the front valve train were such that the conventional oil could not tolerate the extra miles because the VCM essentially created 'severe conditions' since the engine was new.

The PCV valve is not on the service schedule that the dealer hands out for this vehicle, but we are changing it anyhow with the cam and I'll let you know how it looks.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
Hey guys, just a thought...are we sure a shorter OCI is going to help much? Adam's picture of the squeaky clean rear valve train seems to indicate that he wasn't exhausting the oil's ability to keep solids suspended. Just wondering if a short OCI may not be enough.

Maybe I missed it, but did the PCV in Adam's engine get checked?


Remember I spoke with a tech at Mobil who told me that the conventional Mobil Super oil that my dealer has been using is recommended by Mobil to run up to 5,000 miles. The oil is also guaranteed to run as long as the manufacturer specifies, but this must be, by the very nature of the warranty statement,an obvious matter of business politics then of automotive precision. The Mobil tech added that after 5,000 miles the oil would continue to lubricate, however the additive packages, including the detergents, would begin to break down after that. That's exactly what we are seeing here. In the case of my engine the oil ran fine in the rear cylinders, but not in the front. My conclusion it that engine conditions in the front valve train were such that the conventional oil could not tolerate the extra miles because the VCM essentially created 'severe conditions' since the engine was new.

The PCV valve is not on the service schedule that the dealer hands out for this vehicle, but we are changing it anyhow with the cam and I'll let you know how it looks.


You know what Adam I have contacted Mobil about what you have stated on your original post I do not know who you talked to at Mobil, also no surprise to me Mobil has not returned my phone call or emails. All I am saying is I no doubt believe what you said or that is what you believed you heard from your conversation with Mobil. But I want clarification from Mobil on the bolded statement.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
Hey guys, just a thought...are we sure a shorter OCI is going to help much? Adam's picture of the squeaky clean rear valve train seems to indicate that he wasn't exhausting the oil's ability to keep solids suspended. Just wondering if a short OCI may not be enough.

Maybe I missed it, but did the PCV in Adam's engine get checked?


Remember I spoke with a tech at Mobil who told me that the conventional Mobil Super oil that my dealer has been using is recommended by Mobil to run up to 5,000 miles. The oil is also guaranteed to run as long as the manufacturer specifies, but this must be, by the very nature of the warranty statement,an obvious matter of business politics then of automotive precision. The Mobil tech added that after 5,000 miles the oil would continue to lubricate, however the additive packages, including the detergents, would begin to break down after that. That's exactly what we are seeing here. In the case of my engine the oil ran fine in the rear cylinders, but not in the front. My conclusion it that engine conditions in the front valve train were such that the conventional oil could not tolerate the extra miles because the VCM essentially created 'severe conditions' since the engine was new.

The PCV valve is not on the service schedule that the dealer hands out for this vehicle, but we are changing it anyhow with the cam and I'll let you know how it looks.


You know what Adam I have contacted Mobil about what you have stated on your original post I do not know who you talked to at Mobil, also no surprise to me Mobil has not returned my phone call or emails. All I am saying is I no doubt believe what you said or that is what you believed you heard from your conversation with Mobil. But I want clarification from Mobil on the bolded statement.


Dave, Mobil took my call and I spoke with their rep on the first call attempt. I called the 'Other Contact Options' technical question number on their website. By all means please give them another call. I wrote down what they told me at the time. Here is the complete rundown that Mobil gave me concerning their oils. They told me the following were their manufacturer's basic recommendations:

Mobil Special: 3000 miles, 3 months (conventional)
Mobil Super: 5000 miles, 6 months (conventional)
Mobil Hi-Mileage: 7500 miles, 6 months (conventional)
Mobil Super-Synthetic: 7500 miles, 6 months (conv-synth mix)
Mobil 1: 10,000 miles, one year (synthetic)
Mobil 1 EP: 15,000 miles, didn't ask the time (synthetic)

I believe if you check the Mobil web site you will see some of the numbers I quote listed there as well. Sorry I'm not understanding why this sounds unusual.

Mobil also said there are no issues changing oil types of changing from a different brand of oil to Mobil. They did say to refrain from using any other grade oil then that which is recommended by the manufacturer for the particular vehicle.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: Vikas
The difference between the two heads is striking! Looking at the "good" head is hard to believe that engine was ran on dino for over 10K OCI. It really looks like brand new. It is also the bank which "supposedly" ran the hottest. I think that assertion needs to be revisited. Is it possible that Adam has wrongly identified which cylinders are shut down in VCM mode? Front valve train seems to be the one which is cooked, although I still don't see sludge or blocked passages on apart from really dark varnish. The rear valve train looks like it was manufactured yesterday.

Also the "gasket with screens" picture shows no clogged passages. Was the picture taken after the cleanup?

In any case, this is either a design issue or manufacturing defect, but definitely not the owner or dealer neglect. I hope Adam has luck with the manufacturer to pony up the expenses to fix this problem.


Just to clarify, the rear valve train shuts down in 3-cylinger mode, the front cylinder it the one that does all the work and is cooked. And the filter with screen picture is not my vehicle. I just used it to compare the older gasket from the newer one without the filter, still in its package.


That's exactly what I thought. I bet if you pulled both heads the one with the cooked oil would show a lot more carbon, and wear too. I bet the rings, cylinder walls,valves etc are clearly worse than the other side of the engine. I wonder what were they thinking when they designed that nightmare? Didn't some high paid engineer think alternating banks would have been better?

 

[zfasts03]

I understand that a engine oil should not be used to masks engine design issues, but how about running Redline 5w-20, which should be able to handle the extreme heat of the front cylinder bank.

 

[yonyon]

Originally Posted By: zfasts03
I understand that a engine oil should not be used to masks engine design issues, but how about running Redline 5w-20, which should be able to handle the extreme heat of the front cylinder bank.


If that's so, then the right way to proceed would be to get a software update to disable the 3 cylinder operating mode. In GM-land that sort of thing would normally cost $200 to $250 and probably a week long wait, then one hour labor charge plus a 15 minute turn around time for anyone else who wanted the same thing. How does that sort of thing work with Hondas?

 

[Mau]

Is there no way to disable this eco mode? I could of sworn in a recent CRV commercial they showed the driver pushing a button for eco mode.

Does the pilot not work the same way ?

If there is a big enough problem and Honda won't resolve it with software flash look at getting HonData to see if they can work with the ecu and disable this thing

 

[Hokiefyd]

I think there are programmers out there that allow you to disable VCM.

This is not an engine design issue. This is a MM programming issue. If the MM were calibrated for shorter drain intervals, this problem would likely be avoided. If higher quality oil is used at shorter intervals than the MM indicates are used, I know personally that the problem is avoided. You can run any oil too long in any given engine and create an environment that promotes sludge. Obviously, the MM-indicated intervals are TOO LONG in this engine.

There are a number of ways around it. The easiest is to simply use synthetic oil every 5,000 miles. Problem solved, for good.

Saying this is a poor engine design is like saying that GM's high feature V-6s have a poor engine design because they're hard on oil and the OLM allows only 5,000 mile oil changes. They're not of a poor design; they're simply harder on oil than other engines. The main difference is that Honda's MM appears to be too liberal with its oil change interval recommendations, and GM has correctedly calibrated theirs. Honda's fault, to be sure, but just ignore it. Heck, I don't even follow the MM on my CR-V.

Cheers,
Jason

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I think there are programmers out there that allow you to disable VCM.

This is not an engine design issue. The design is robust. This is primarily a MM programming issue. If the MM were calibrated for shorter drain intervals, this problem would likely be avoided. If higher quality oil is used at shorter intervals than the MM indicates are used, I know personally that the problem is avoided.

The engine design itself is fine, and quite good really. It's this VCM implementation combined with long drain intervals that are gumming up the works, so to speak. There are a number of ways around it. The easiest is to simply use synthetic oil every 5,000 miles. Problem solved, for good.

Saying this is a poor engine design is like saying that GM's high feature V-6s have a poor engine design because they're hard on oil and the OLM allows only 5,000 mile oil changes. They're not of a poor design; they're simply harder on oil than other engines. The main difference is that Honda's MM appears to be too liberal with its oil change interval recommendations, and GM has correctedly calibrated theirs. Honda's fault, to be sure, but just ignore it. Heck, I don't even follow the MM on my CR-V.


Here's where I have issue. If the engine design VCM is part of this design, was that good, why is only half the engine sludged up? The oil held up fine in the other half of the engine, in fact it was pretty clean. A good synthetic oil for 5000 miles might have helped, but would it work in all applications? Again here is a case where we want oil to compensate for a poor engine design. JMO

 

[Boss302fan]

I purchased a new 2003 Acura MDX with the V6 in 03 and was glad to dump it in 2011 at 135K miles. It ticked from 90K on, after 3K-5K OCI's it whole life(90% rural driving at 45MPH+).

I would say, that I used syn just about every oil change after the first 5000 miles. Changing the oil on a short OCI did not help my engine. I am pretty sure I used Mobil 1... Unless of course the Acura dealer lied to me and charged me for syn and used conventional. Who knows.

Very poor engine design is 100% the problem...

 

[Mau]

Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
I purchased a new 2003 Acura MDX with the V6 in 03 and was glad to dump it in 2011 at 135K miles. It ticked from 90K on, after 3K-5K OCI's it whole life(90% rural driving at 45MPH+).

I would say, that I used syn just about every oil change after the first 5000 miles. Changing the oil on a short OCI did not help my engine. I am pretty sure I used Mobil 1... Unless of course the Acura dealer lied to me and charged me for syn and used conventional. Who knows.

Very poor engine design is 100% the problem...


LOL I hope you looked into a valve adjustment instead of deeming the engine design at fault. Your 2003 3.5L is very different from the Pilots. Your 3.5 is similar to my 3.5 and its a smooth and quiet engine.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Again here is a case where we want oil to compensate for a poor engine design. JMO


Again, EVERY engine has a point after which any reasonable oil, conventional especially, will begin to break down. One half of this engine gets hotter than the other half, but that's beside the point; the same oil in the sump gets pumped to both halves. ALL engines have areas that get hotter than other areas. ALL engines. The point is that there is an interval where even a VCM-equipped Honda V-6 engine will not experience this type of sludge and varnish. 9k miles on conventional oil is BEYOND that point. Experience shows that a 5k mile interval works much better. That doesn't make it a "good" or a "bad" design; we're simply seeing the effects of an inappropriate oil change interval being specified.

The fact is that Honda made a mistake in the MM programming on this engine. It's clearly Honda's mistake, and in my opinion, Honda has furthered the mistake by NOT addressing it. This is Honda's problem, no doubt. But I don't think the blame is put on the correct element here.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Again here is a case where we want oil to compensate for a poor engine design. JMO


Again, EVERY engine has a point after which any reasonable oil, conventional especially, will begin to break down. One half of this engine gets hotter than the other half, but that's beside the point; the same oil in the sump gets pumped to both halves. ALL engines have areas that get hotter than other areas. ALL engines. The point is that there is an interval where even a VCM-equipped Honda V-6 engine will not experience this type of sludge and varnish. 9k miles on conventional oil is BEYOND that point. Experience shows that a 5k mile interval works much better. That doesn't make it a "good" or a "bad" design; we're simply seeing the effects of an inappropriate oil change interval being specified.

The fact is that Honda made a mistake in the MM programming on this engine. It's clearly Honda's mistake, and in my opinion, Honda has furthered the mistake by NOT addressing it. This is Honda's problem, no doubt. But I don't think the blame is put on the correct element here.


So you see no problem with the design of this engine? The MM is a small part of the problem here. The big problem is in the design, and the way it generates heat on the front bank. I'm not disputing a shorter OCI and synthetic oil won't help. But you're still not going to stop the front bank from overheating, that's the design flaw.

Most well designed engines can handle the heat, and not require a synthetic oil, or special a OCI to do so. Most well designed engines won't sludge up half the engine. It will be all sludge or none, and the sludge will only occur when neglected.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Excuse me, but from all that I read here it may be that the rear bank is UNDER heated!!!

 

[Hokiefyd]

The front bank doesn't "overheat". The front bank will turn 8,000 mile conventional oil into sludge. The front bank does not turn 5,000 mile synthetic into sludge. It probably doesn't even turn 5,000 mile conventional oil into sludge (but the ones I have seen have been using synthetic).

You are mistaken that engines can't sludge up some parts of the engine and not others. All engines experiences areas that are hotter than others. I've seen older cam-in-block engines where the camshaft area was full of crusty cake, but it looked clean under the valve covers. The key is to assign an appropriate interval that takes the worst-case area into account. For this particular engine, the front bank is the worst-case area. If an appropriate oil change interval were specified up front, this wouldn't be an issue.

Most well-designed engines don't require a "synthetic" oil or a "special" OCI? I'd encourage you to check out any of the many manufacturer-specific oil specifications and maintenance intervals out there and let that research speak for itself.

The simple fact is that this engine is harder on oil than the "normal" Honda V-6 and Honda appears to be using the same MM programming. That's the failure. You seem intent on judging the design of the engine as a whole, and as you've already reached your conclusion on it, I will quit responding.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
The front bank doesn't "overheat". The front bank will turn 8,000 mile conventional oil into sludge. The front bank does not turn 5,000 mile synthetic into sludge. It probably doesn't even turn 5,000 mile conventional oil into sludge (but the ones I have seen have been using synthetic).

You are mistaken that engines can't sludge up some parts of the engine and not others. All engines experiences areas that are hotter than others. I've seen older cam-in-block engines where the camshaft area was full of crusty cake, but it looked clean under the valve covers. The key is to assign an appropriate interval that takes the worst-case area into account. For this particular engine, the front bank is the worst-case area. If an appropriate oil change interval were specified up front, this wouldn't be an issue.

Most well-designed engines don't require a "synthetic" oil or a "special" OCI? I'd encourage you to check out any of the many manufacturer-specific oil specifications and maintenance intervals out there and let that research speak for itself.

The simple fact is that this engine is harder on oil than the "normal" Honda V-6 and Honda appears to be using the same MM programming. That's the failure. You seem intent on judging the design of the engine as a whole, and as you've already reached your conclusion on it, I will quit responding.


Explain the mess on one bank of the engine, and the clean bank on the other side. What caused it? Was it the perfect engine from Honda? Just wondering?
I never saw a V type engine that was running properly only sludge up one bank of the engine. Maybe a slight amount more sludge in some areas, yea I'll give you that, but this is not normal, sorry. BTW Honda was spec'ing dino for this engine. Yes there are engines that require synthetic oil, I know that, it appears Honda didn't think so here.

 

[gogozy]

Originally Posted By: Mau
Is there no way to disable this eco mode? I could of sworn in a recent CRV commercial they showed the driver pushing a button for eco mode.

Does the pilot not work the same way ?

If there is a big enough problem and Honda won't resolve it with software flash look at getting HonData to see if they can work with the ecu and disable this thing


no way, i believe Honda use vcm to reach better result in EPA testing, and so Honda need to make sure vcm are on it fleet.