Good for the VW employees. Sound like they have a good head on their shoulders.
VW Union Vote
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Originally Posted By: wkcars
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Originally Posted By: wkcars
And when dealing with public employee unions, the costs are paid by taxpayers.
I'm curious what you mean by that. Would you explain?
The benefits that the unions negotiated to get employees, when they are government/public employees, those costs are paid by tax money/taxpayers. I'm not saying there aren't cases where the costs might be proportioned or paid through other sources, but for the most part taxpayers are on the hook for government/public employees.
I can't speak for all public unions, but the costs associated with union dues here come from the employees pocket. Yes, they are payed from taxpayer dollars, but they had to earn them first. Any additional monetary, sick/vacation, health gains garnered by union negotiations of course would be footed by the state- their employer. It's really no different than any other business.
Would you have them not receive raises, vacation increases or other incentives, where none were going to given? My wife is a custodian for a state university. She had said that before they had the union, the custodians (and certain other employees) didn't get anywhere near the vacation, pay and other benefits that other employees had. In this case, the union negotiated for a better employment package. Consequently they are now payed fairly and receive more benefits. Granted, they aren't compensated like tenured professor, but they don't do the work of a tenured prof either.
Unions have both good bad aspects of them. In general, I believe they have run their course and are in many cases digging their own graves by negotiating themselves out work.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: opus1
Originally Posted By: Gabe
Originally Posted By: harbor
Although the vote was fairly close, the VW workers rejected the union
I will never understand why people willing vote against better working conditions.
Apparently enough people felt that conditions were just fine and the union wouldn't add anything to their life but another payroll deduction...
Exactly!
Here is how weird it can get when you have so-called "union rules."
When I was at a major aerospace firm we had a ""professional" union (scientists and engineers union) and the manf. area had their Union as well, but we were both in the IAM. I thought, heck I'll join as this should be interesting to see how this works out.
When an engineer went to the shop to speak with a machinist, he had to locate the union steward, and then the steward went with you to speak to the machinist. Union rules. Same union.
I'm simply speechless!
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Originally Posted By: wkcars
And when dealing with public employee unions, the costs are paid by taxpayers.
I'm curious what you mean by that. Would you explain?
The benefits that the unions negotiated to get employees, when they are government/public employees, those costs are paid by tax money/taxpayers. I'm not saying there aren't cases where the costs might be proportioned or paid through other sources, but for the most part taxpayers are on the hook for government/public employees.
I can't speak for all public unions, but the costs associated with union dues here come from the employees pocket. Yes, they are payed from taxpayer dollars, but they had to earn them first. Any additional monetary, sick/vacation, health gains garnered by union negotiations of course would be footed by the state- their employer. It's really no different than any other business.
Would you have them not receive raises, vacation increases or other incentives, where none were going to given? My wife is a custodian for a state university. She had said that before they had the union, the custodians (and certain other employees) didn't get anywhere near the vacation, pay and other benefits that other employees had. In this case, the union negotiated for a better employment package. Consequently they are now payed fairly and receive more benefits. Granted, they aren't compensated like tenured professor, but they don't do the work of a tenured prof either.
Unions have both good bad aspects of them. In general, I believe they have run their course and are in many cases digging their own graves by negotiating themselves out work.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: opus1
Originally Posted By: Gabe
Originally Posted By: harbor
Although the vote was fairly close, the VW workers rejected the union
I will never understand why people willing vote against better working conditions.
Apparently enough people felt that conditions were just fine and the union wouldn't add anything to their life but another payroll deduction...
Exactly!
Here is how weird it can get when you have so-called "union rules."
When I was at a major aerospace firm we had a ""professional" union (scientists and engineers union) and the manf. area had their Union as well, but we were both in the IAM. I thought, heck I'll join as this should be interesting to see how this works out.
When an engineer went to the shop to speak with a machinist, he had to locate the union steward, and then the steward went with you to speak to the machinist. Union rules. Same union.
I'm simply speechless!
No matter how you feel about unions, when politicians threaten to withhold future tax incentives for plant expansion if they unionize, something is really wrong.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/02/10/vw-tennessee-uaw-vote-incentives/5368195/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/02/10/vw-tennessee-uaw-vote-incentives/5368195/
I'm a Teamster at UPS and work as a journeyman diesel semi mechanic. UPS terminates unproductive and mistake prone employees. There are unionized places of employment that allow workers to get away with stuff, but not where I work.
I also imagine the working conditions at the modern Chattanooga VW plant is better than an old dreary Ford, Chrysler or GM plant.
I also imagine the working conditions at the modern Chattanooga VW plant is better than an old dreary Ford, Chrysler or GM plant.
Originally Posted By: pbm
Back in December 2013 I watched an interview with AFL-CIO president Richard Trumka. He stated that the unions should "partner with our 'progressive allies' like the NAACP and La Raza" to bring about needed changes....He lost me after that...
Labor unions have and are already doing this. Strange why they would say they SHOULD partner.
Back in December 2013 I watched an interview with AFL-CIO president Richard Trumka. He stated that the unions should "partner with our 'progressive allies' like the NAACP and La Raza" to bring about needed changes....He lost me after that...
Labor unions have and are already doing this. Strange why they would say they SHOULD partner.
Public Employee = Government Employee, hence the union is in large part negotiating with it self since it's government and the costs are simply passed on to the tax payer.
Ever wondered why it seems government workers have the best benefits packages, while the voters who are paying for them don't have no cost health insurance, etc? It's because Public Employee Unions don't negotiate with the voters, but one group of government workers negotiates with another group of government works when it comes to contract details.
The ones who get the bill are not at the table for these negotiations.
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Originally Posted By: wkcars
And when dealing with public employee unions, the costs are paid by taxpayers.
I'm curious what you mean by that. Would you explain?
Ever wondered why it seems government workers have the best benefits packages, while the voters who are paying for them don't have no cost health insurance, etc? It's because Public Employee Unions don't negotiate with the voters, but one group of government workers negotiates with another group of government works when it comes to contract details.
The ones who get the bill are not at the table for these negotiations.
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Originally Posted By: wkcars
And when dealing with public employee unions, the costs are paid by taxpayers.
I'm curious what you mean by that. Would you explain?
The best thing those VW employees could have done. Keep the union OUT at all cost. The trade off in individualism and achievement for an illusionary security isn't worth it.
Quality and productivity would suffer as costs rise for the consumer.
Quality and productivity would suffer as costs rise for the consumer.
Originally Posted By: Gabe
Originally Posted By: harbor
Although the vote was fairly close, the VW workers rejected the union
I will never understand why people willing vote against better working conditions.
And I will never understand why people will vote their job away.
Originally Posted By: harbor
Although the vote was fairly close, the VW workers rejected the union
I will never understand why people willing vote against better working conditions.
And I will never understand why people will vote their job away.
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Gabe
Originally Posted By: harbor
Although the vote was fairly close, the VW workers rejected the union
I will never understand why people willing vote against better working conditions.
And I will never understand why people will vote their job away.
Yes, because no non-union employee ever lost their job, no non-union shops ever closed, and no non-union jobs were ever sent overseas.
Originally Posted By: Gabe
Originally Posted By: harbor
Although the vote was fairly close, the VW workers rejected the union
I will never understand why people willing vote against better working conditions.
And I will never understand why people will vote their job away.
Yes, because no non-union employee ever lost their job, no non-union shops ever closed, and no non-union jobs were ever sent overseas.
Germany is very unionized I was under the impression VW was trying to implement a German style system which is illegal in the US.
If I understand correctly in Germany they have councils with employees and management to address work issues, than the big unions on the national levels deal with the wages.
If I understand correctly in Germany they have councils with employees and management to address work issues, than the big unions on the national levels deal with the wages.
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Originally Posted By: dishdude
Yes, because no non-union employee ever lost their job, no non-union shops ever closed, and no non-union jobs were ever sent overseas.
EXACTLY!
Not only that but the parent company in
Germany stated that a NO vote to the union would likely decrease the potential for future additional models and increased production.
So the employees have likely damaged their future livelihood.
The fact is that all German auto plants are very organized and there is NO other developed nation on earth that is more profitable, more productive, and have some of the very best employee working conditions.
The US is headed towards third world, low wage status, that will look much like Brazil or Mexico.
Yes, because no non-union employee ever lost their job, no non-union shops ever closed, and no non-union jobs were ever sent overseas.
EXACTLY!
Not only that but the parent company in
Germany stated that a NO vote to the union would likely decrease the potential for future additional models and increased production.
So the employees have likely damaged their future livelihood.
The fact is that all German auto plants are very organized and there is NO other developed nation on earth that is more profitable, more productive, and have some of the very best employee working conditions.
The US is headed towards third world, low wage status, that will look much like Brazil or Mexico.
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So let's look at the facts presented.
1. VW wants to implement their style system in a US plant.
2. That system is illegal under US labor law.
3. Germany is one of the most successful industrialized nations on the planet.
Therefore, the problem isn't union or non-union, but that our own laws prevent the implementation of a proven system of workers and management working together to profitably build excellent products.
The union vote is a red-herring. The problem seems to be our current labor laws.
1. VW wants to implement their style system in a US plant.
2. That system is illegal under US labor law.
3. Germany is one of the most successful industrialized nations on the planet.
Therefore, the problem isn't union or non-union, but that our own laws prevent the implementation of a proven system of workers and management working together to profitably build excellent products.
The union vote is a red-herring. The problem seems to be our current labor laws.
Laws that override the democratic process are laws that should be carefully examined.
My bet is almost anything in our labor laws is likely to have been put there by some wealthy special interest group. This includes unions, who traditionally enjoy excellent access.
The workers have voted...
My bet is almost anything in our labor laws is likely to have been put there by some wealthy special interest group. This includes unions, who traditionally enjoy excellent access.
The workers have voted...
OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: spackard
Volkswagen workers rejected the union by a vote of 712 to 626.
I guess you forgot that the workers don't want the union.
They. Don't. Want. The. Union.
Right, they don't want the UAW. They don't have the ability to join the Germany labour Union, which sounds like it is operated quite differently. Under those circumstances, that's really no surprise.
Volkswagen workers rejected the union by a vote of 712 to 626.
I guess you forgot that the workers don't want the union.
They. Don't. Want. The. Union.
Right, they don't want the UAW. They don't have the ability to join the Germany labour Union, which sounds like it is operated quite differently. Under those circumstances, that's really no surprise.
The US unions probably don't want a German style union system to start up here, it would work to well.
German auto workers are highly paid, get free and quite good health car, have a lot of vacations, and great retirement.
Germany is also beating our brains out in international manufacturing right now, they have shown that you can be a manufacturing powerhouse and still have very expensive labor.
They also have great apprenticeship programs to get HS kids into the factories to learn trades and skills.
German auto workers are highly paid, get free and quite good health car, have a lot of vacations, and great retirement.
Germany is also beating our brains out in international manufacturing right now, they have shown that you can be a manufacturing powerhouse and still have very expensive labor.
They also have great apprenticeship programs to get HS kids into the factories to learn trades and skills.
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I keep hearing how "German Style Unionization" would be contrary to Federal law, but no one has yet offered an explanation as to which law would be violated.
IG Metall, the German Union, worked closely with the UAW here. I'm sure the contract would have adhered to any applicable laws
I can fully understand voting against union organization. I've done it myself. I worked as a projectionist in a theater many years ago. The MPMO tried to unionize the shop.Voting union would have nearly doubled my salary but I would have to give up my job to someone who has been on the books longer who is waiting for a job. As it turns out, everyone involved got fired after we voted against. A vote for was to lose your job indefinitely and a vote against was to lose your job permanently. Lose/lose situation.
IG Metall, the German Union, worked closely with the UAW here. I'm sure the contract would have adhered to any applicable laws
I can fully understand voting against union organization. I've done it myself. I worked as a projectionist in a theater many years ago. The MPMO tried to unionize the shop.Voting union would have nearly doubled my salary but I would have to give up my job to someone who has been on the books longer who is waiting for a job. As it turns out, everyone involved got fired after we voted against. A vote for was to lose your job indefinitely and a vote against was to lose your job permanently. Lose/lose situation.
The workers must not have read this. Be sure to follow the link to the full story. http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickall...twice-as-much/. BTW, politics played a huge role in the vote. One local political party stuck its nose into the issue and lobbied hard against the union.
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