VW 507.00 vs CBEA spec for DPF?

[Volvohead]

Pablo,

You know I'm not looking to bust your chomps on this one.

It's just that we own one of these. Before buying, we checked long and hard what the warranty covered and for how long, as there is a veritable chemical plant going on under this car.

We both know there are a lot of terrific 507 compliant oils out there, including yours. They probably all would work flawlessly in it. But I felt obligated to point out the warranty factor. The 8/80 coverage is federal law, not VW's. I'm happy to have the coverage. But dealers and district reps question maintenance details when there's a major claim, and VW specifically warns about the use of incorrect oils in this engine. Not that yours or any other 507 compliant oil is "incorrect", but it absolutely shifts the burden if VW wants to challenge it. Simply using an "approved" oil moots the oil question altogether.

It certainly has limited our choices, as there is practically only a handful of 507.00 "approved" oils, none of which are particularly affordable or convenient to get. We're not happy about that.

By contrast, I'm running T6 in our SL's M113 engine, which calls for an MB 229.5 oil. Shell doesn't even suggest MB 229.5 compliance. But I know T6 is just as robust (if not more so) as the "approved" Total Quartz the dealer pours into it, especially at the short OCIs planned. More importantly, it's well outside warranty, so I'm not risking anything merely by using it.

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Amsoil paid Volkwagen AG a lot of money to get the certification from them?

If Amsoil knows what a given "quality standard" entails, they can determine whether they conform to it or not by performing their own tests. They don't need Volkswagen to tell them that.


Amsoil can mimic properties of other certified oils, HOWEVER.... VW has their special test that REQUIRES submission to VWAG, as details are not publicly available. Other specifications to the oils are listed.

 

[skyship]

Key words "always use engine oils that conform to the applicable Volkswagen Oil Quality Standard"

Which oil conforms to the VW standard would be decided by VW, if they rejected a warrenty claim because a recommended rather than approved oil had been used, you would have to prove the oil conformed to the VW standards and that would prove expensive as the oil tests done by Amsoil would not be accepted unless Amsoil could prove they were exactly the same as the tests done by VW and subject to independent verification.
With all manufacturers warrenty terms where an an approved oil is required, it means that the actual oil used must be on the manufactures list not just recommended by an engine oil company.

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Amsoil paid Volkwagen AG a lot of money to get the certification from them?

If Amsoil knows what a given "quality standard" entails, they can determine whether they conform to it or not by performing their own tests. They don't need Volkswagen to tell them that.


Amsoil can mimic properties of other certified oils, HOWEVER.... VW has their special test that REQUIRES submission to VWAG, as details are not publicly available. Other specifications to the oils are listed.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: skyship
With all manufacturers warrenty terms where an an approved oil is required, it means that the actual oil used must be on the manufactures list not just recommended by an engine oil company.


Simply not true in the USA.

 

[DuckRyder]

OK, here is(are) my question(s):

Does amsoil have the complete 507.00 procedure from VW, and if not how can they state it conforms. Simply put, the entire standard must be known in order to for it to conform to the standard.

If/when VW denies coverage for a warranty issue due to incorrect oil, is Amsoil going to cover it or fight the fight with VW or is the owner stuck in the middle?

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
OK, here is(are) my question(s):

Does amsoil have the complete 507.00 procedure from VW, and if not how can they state it conforms. Simply put, the entire standard must be known in order to for it to conform to the standard.

If/when VW denies coverage for a warranty issue due to incorrect oil, is Amsoil going to cover it or fight the fight with VW or is the owner stuck in the middle?


Great questions.

Yes they do.

If somehow VW THINKS it's the "incorrect" oil, Amsoil is more than ready to fight that fight. In fact Amsoil actively asks if you even hear a hint of a dealer or manufacturer doing such things, they want to know about it.

Sort of an aside, I was stewing on this last night. Let's say - someone was using any brand of some high additive content (High SAPS, high solids) oil for a period of time and then switched to Amsoil and right away the DPF went kabooey and clogged.....well of course VW AND Amsoil will be pretty darn curious about what oil was use BEFORE. Keep all those receipts and keep a bottle of the oil you are using (regardless of brand) - because any oil company will need to know the batch/lot #, etc.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Amsoil paid Volkwagen AG a lot of money to get the certification from them?

If Amsoil knows what a given "quality standard" entails, they can determine whether they conform to it or not by performing their own tests. They don't need Volkswagen to tell them that.


From first hand experience I can tell you that getting certification 504/507 costs 3,000 euros or around $4,600.
Oil compay from my country got that certification with no problems. I would say that tis oil company is disproportionally smaller then Amsoil. I was involved in testing thir oil on VW 1.2tdi so I know how they proceeded with certification, the process it took place and costs. Very simple and very cheap.
When someone says that companies did not want to get certification because they did not want to pay, is just bunch of [censored]!

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
From first hand experience I can tell you that getting certification 504/507 costs 3,000 euros or around $4,600.

Does this include the cost of actual testing at VW approved facilities or just the cost of obtaining an official certificate (piece of paper) after the testing has been performed? From what I've read in the past, the official testing itself was around $200K.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: edyvw
From first hand experience I can tell you that getting certification 504/507 costs 3,000 euros or around $4,600.

Does this include the cost of actual testing at VW approved facilities or just the cost of obtaining an official certificate (piece of paper) after the testing has been performed? From what I've read in the past, the official testing itself was around $200K.


This includes testing and approval, meaning producer of the oil got approval to put on product 504/507 and say that oil is approved by VW. Oil was sent to VW for testing!
So all that stories how they do not want to pay is just bunch of "malarky"

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: edyvw
From first hand experience I can tell you that getting certification 504/507 costs 3,000 euros or around $4,600.

Does this include the cost of actual testing at VW approved facilities or just the cost of obtaining an official certificate (piece of paper) after the testing has been performed? From what I've read in the past, the official testing itself was around $200K.


This includes testing and approval, meaning producer of the oil got approval to put on product 504/507 and say that oil is approved by VW. Oil was sent to VW for testing!
So all that stories how they do not want to pay is just bunch of "malarky"

Since it costs so little... then Amsoil should have no issues making the small investment to get it officially certified by VW.

as.. Amsoil has never gone ahead with the process and gotten AFL certified. AFL has been out for almost 10 years now

 

[edyvw]

That is why I am not into using any oil that is not approved. That tells something!
I believe that Amsoil is going to do good job. But that is really not serious on their part.
And it is not only them.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Pablo

If somehow VW THINKS it's the "incorrect" oil, Amsoil is more than ready to fight that fight. In fact Amsoil actively asks if you even hear a hint of a dealer or manufacturer doing such things, they want to know about it.

Sort of an aside, I was stewing on this last night. Let's say - someone was using any brand of some high additive content (High SAPS, high solids) oil for a period of time and then switched to Amsoil and right away the DPF went kabooey and clogged.....well of course VW AND Amsoil will be pretty darn curious about what oil was use BEFORE. Keep all those receipts and keep a bottle of the oil you are using (regardless of brand) - because any oil company will need to know the batch/lot #, etc.


So the unconditional warranty on a "recommended" oil is only applicable if they used a VW "approved" oil, and the recommended intervals before using AMSOIL.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Pablo

If somehow VW THINKS it's the "incorrect" oil, Amsoil is more than ready to fight that fight. In fact Amsoil actively asks if you even hear a hint of a dealer or manufacturer doing such things, they want to know about it.

Sort of an aside, I was stewing on this last night. Let's say - someone was using any brand of some high additive content (High SAPS, high solids) oil for a period of time and then switched to Amsoil and right away the DPF went kabooey and clogged.....well of course VW AND Amsoil will be pretty darn curious about what oil was use BEFORE. Keep all those receipts and keep a bottle of the oil you are using (regardless of brand) - because any oil company will need to know the batch/lot #, etc.


So the unconditional warranty on a "recommended" oil is only applicable if they used a VW "approved" oil, and the recommended intervals before using AMSOIL.



That is not what I wrote. The oil in use before will be a factor. Have a good history.

 

[bigjl]

You stated that is not what you wrote but that is exactly what your post inferred.

Saying something and it being inferred by what you wrote are slightly different, but yes you did infer it.

What exactly does the statement "have a good history" mean? Is that a reference to previous discussion between you and the poster to are replying to?

Care to enlighten?

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: bigjl
You stated that is not what you wrote but that is exactly what your post inferred.

Saying something and it being inferred by what you wrote are slightly different, but yes you did infer it.

What exactly does the statement "have a good history" mean? Is that a reference to previous discussion between you and the poster to are replying to?

Care to enlighten?


It's very simple. You cannot use just any oil and expect VW or Amsoil to warranty the part(s) that may fail due to the oil. For example you cannot use a 1980 motorcycle oil, or 2012 Amsoil MCF but you could use an approved oil or Amsoil AEL 5W-30, for example. Of course what Shannow wrote is not EXACTLY correct.

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Sort of an aside, I was stewing on this last night. Let's say - someone was using any brand of some high additive content (High SAPS, high solids) oil for a period of time and then switched to Amsoil and right away the DPF went kabooey and clogged.....well of course VW AND Amsoil will be pretty darn curious about what oil was use BEFORE. Keep all those receipts and keep a bottle of the oil you are using (regardless of brand) - because any oil company will need to know the batch/lot #, etc.


Originally Posted By: Shannow
So the unconditional warranty on a "recommended" oil is only applicable if they used a VW "approved" oil, and the recommended intervals before using AMSOIL.



You will notice it's not a question. He made a statement. "Only" being the key word. He also added "recommended intervals" when I made no such mention. This is simply not what I wrote.

Regardless, with an emissions system so prone to fail as the weak VW DPF, it's best to be ready for warranty issues. So keep a log book, save every detailed receipt, save oil bottle markings, etc.

 

[Garak]

I don't know about you, Pablo, but I do find a few things ironic here in this thread. In all the years that I've been on this site, there have been complaints about how API/ILSAC oils are weak sauce, how certain VWs have eaten cams while using the specified oils, and so forth. Then, there is a product line that's been around for years and currently offers API/ILSAC oils, oils that are recommended as suitable, and oils that promise no certifications whatsoever, and we still get complaints.

There is a free market, people. If you want M1 0w-40, buy it. If you want GC, buy it. If you want the most expensive Motul you can find, go right ahead. If you want Amsoil, that's available, too.

It's also worth noting that plenty of VW/Audi dealers in North America had no clue (and still have no clue) as to what oils to actually use in the vehicles they sell. Personally, I'd have more confidence in a suitable Amsoil choice or RP 0w-40 than I would in the bulk GTX conventional that some of the dealers have been using for a very long time. Sure, it's on the dealer if there's a disaster, but do you really want to depend on the dealer that can't get the oil choice right in the first place?

 

[Pablo]

VW America is irony defined. Their oil call outs and dealer communication and follow through with customers are weak, at best. I actually want to like VW. I had a New 1985 Sirocco. Nice car, weak engine stock (leaked oil NEW). I would love to own a VW diesel - the whole DPF thing is not confidence building.

 

[Garak]

That's why I drove such an old Audi. If it's not something I can get the manuals for and fix myself, I'm not interested. The unfortunate thing about the diesels is that if you find a good example for sale out of warranty, it's got half a million kilometres on it. If it's got next to nothing for miles and the warranty is still intact, someone's trying to drop a problem child because the dealer is clueless. At least ULSD is now the norm here. That will certainly help.

VW wants to be the world's biggest carmaker. I'm rooting for them, but they need to yank the licenses from the majority of their dealers and start over.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
OK, here is(are) my question(s):

Does amsoil have the complete 507.00 procedure from VW, and if not how can they state it conforms. Simply put, the entire standard must be known in order to for it to conform to the standard.

If/when VW denies coverage for a warranty issue due to incorrect oil, is Amsoil going to cover it or fight the fight with VW or is the owner stuck in the middle?


I would guess they just follow the recipe/formula of similar oils (M1 ESP 5W30) do some testing and call it a day.

 

[BTLew81]

I love my VW's. I hate the dealers. My latest dealer seems to be pretty good, but when I had my two diesels, it seemed like I knew more than them on a variety of topics. From oil to the HPFP debacle, I knew more. I dumped it for fear of the HPFP. The new diesel is coming out next year I believe, and will have urea injection and no DPF from what I hear. Thank God!

Back on topic. I used the Euro 5w30 for most of the 55k I owned my 09 TDI. No issues, held up well, and from my Vag Com scans, was having NO ill effects on the DPF.

I'll be using the new Full SAPS Euro in my 12 gasser. Frankly, I believe more in Amsoil and their backing than VW. Sad that I still love VW this much, but I do.