Our citizens need more guns.
Violent crime down, while gun sales are up
- Thread starter whip
- Start date
- Status
Great post DNewton.
It's the failure for facts to be presented properly that makes our talking heads talk about the "great success" of Oz' gun laws.
"Homicides with firearms" dropped sharply, unfortunately suicides didn't, and the complicit media never held them to task, as they are...well...complicit.
It's the failure for facts to be presented properly that makes our talking heads talk about the "great success" of Oz' gun laws.
"Homicides with firearms" dropped sharply, unfortunately suicides didn't, and the complicit media never held them to task, as they are...well...complicit.
Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
I thought Whip was posting with tongue firmly planted in cheek.
Yes. Despite what many in the media want us to believe, more guns does not equal more violence. Thank you for seeing that.
I kinda guessed your tone from the "How can this be?" line.
Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
I thought Whip was posting with tongue firmly planted in cheek.
Yes. Despite what many in the media want us to believe, more guns does not equal more violence. Thank you for seeing that.
I kinda guessed your tone from the "How can this be?" line.
DNewton3, great posts. Spot on, facts don't lie. Well done. Please spread that goodness all over the web!
I live in Illinois, the last state to pass concealed carry.
We are now in a POST-can we conceal carry- America.
Now we move on to open carry. Game on.
I feel good, I feel real good!
We are now in a POST-can we conceal carry- America.
Now we move on to open carry. Game on.
I feel good, I feel real good!
It certainly looks like dNewton3 has all of the statistical evidence required. I don't know how anybody can argue with all of the information supplied.
The incidents that occur in schools and theaters and other places really are isolated events. And in all or almost all of those incidents (except for terrorist incidents) there are mental health issues that need to be addressed. In one of the most recent incidents the killer killed three people with knives and one with a car of the six people that were killed. And then he shot himself. Very strict gun laws would not have prevented the knifings and the attacks on people with an automobile.
What is needed more than anything else is better mental health care in this country. But much of the news media continues to be focused on gun control and seem to ignore the mental health issues that are obviously present in most of these cases.
The incidents that occur in schools and theaters and other places really are isolated events. And in all or almost all of those incidents (except for terrorist incidents) there are mental health issues that need to be addressed. In one of the most recent incidents the killer killed three people with knives and one with a car of the six people that were killed. And then he shot himself. Very strict gun laws would not have prevented the knifings and the attacks on people with an automobile.
What is needed more than anything else is better mental health care in this country. But much of the news media continues to be focused on gun control and seem to ignore the mental health issues that are obviously present in most of these cases.
dnewton3
Staff member
Not that I encourage deviant or insane behavior, but the topic boils down to this ... Murder is murder. The methodolgy to achieve it is only a preferred means by the actor.
Take away guns, and other implements will be used. Guns are tools; how they are used or misused is only a choice by a human, and nothing more.
I am VERY pro-gun. As most of you know, I am also a senior statistical process quality engineer. I live my life by facts, not rhetoric and mythology. And I try my best to spread it to others. Why guess when we can know?
Here is a compilation of FACTS that I've put together, and I print them off and carry in my wallet, so I can not only share this info, but I don't have to rely on my memory (as I age). My credibility is my livelihood. So I base my shared info on FACTS. Some of these are infamous and you've certainly heard of them. Some you likely have never heard before. You are welcome to copy/paste this list, as it is simply a reading of historical facts; I don't own this info, the world does. This list is meant as a talking-point tool when you confront a "non-believer", so to speak. I use this list all the time. When you talk to an anti-gun person, ask them to read the list out loud. (Hand it to them and tell them to read it aloud - doing this forces them into ownership of the reality of the info; it's an interview technique from my detective days). The intent of this list is to show how various methods will have the same result. Different inputs; same output.
Seung-Hui Cho shot and killed 32 people at Virginia Tech. There is massive protest; people called for more gun control.
Haiyang Zhu decapitated a fellow female student, in a public café on the campus at Virginia Tech (more than a year after the famous Cho shootings). No outcry echoes in the campus halls for the confiscation of kitchen knives, or the cessation of manufacture of such instruments.
Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold commit atrocities with guns and pipe bombs at Columbine in CO. There is a major outcry for gun control, but not pipes.
(Juvenile Female) savagely attacked fellow students at Columbine High School 13 years later, with a hammer. No outcry for tool control?
Michael Carneal kills three students at school in Paducah KY by shooting them. Gun control now! shouts the public ...
Darlie Routier stabs her children to death with a kitchen knife. No demands for sharp steel objects to be licensed, or controlled.
Jeffrey Wiese goes on a rampage in Red Lake, MN, killing several by shooting them. “Give us gun control!” is heard everywhere.
Clayton Ellington bludgeons his entire family to death with a hammer. There are no protests at ACE hardware for selling the offensive tools. No lawsuits are filed against Stanley or Craftsman for making them.
Steven Kazmierczak shoots 24 people at the University of Northern Illinois; 6 die. Resounding calls are heard for tighter gun laws and fewer firearms.
Andrea Yates murders her five children by drowning them, successively one at a time, in the family home. There is no backlash against bathtubs, faucets, or the plumbers that install them. Manufacturers like Koehler and Delta fear no litigation or retribution.
“Kip” Kinkle shot and killed his parents, two students at school, and wounded twenty more. Oregon tightens gun control.
Lashanda Armstrong killed herself and three children by driving her minivan into the Hudson River. Did anyone sue the mini-van maker for negligence or culpability? Did NY tighten driver’s license requirements due to her actions? Should one need to pass a criminal background check just to drive?
Charles Roberts shot several Amish children at one-room school house in PA. Yet more demands are heard for more gun laws.
Chris Coleman strangled his entire family to death with hay bailing twine, in Illinois. There are no threats of lawsuits for makers of twine, nor protests at farm-supply stores. No calls are heard for twine to be kept under lock and key around the farm.
Scott Roeder shoots George Tiller (the infamous abortion doctor) to death in Kansas. How can we NOT have more gun laws?
Susan Smith of North Carolina drowned her children in her car by strapping them in, and driving it into a small lake. No one calls for the elimination of motor vehicles or restricted lake access.
Mark Barton shoots 20 people (9 of which die) at stock trading firm in Georgia. “We must have more laws and fewer handguns!”
Mark Barton (yes, the very same person) kills his entire family by viciously beating them to death with a hammer, only a few hours before his shooting spree. Yet, no outcry is heard for increased hand-tool laws, registration, confiscation, or elimination.
Devan Kalathat, 42, shot and killed his two children and three other relatives, then killed himself in an upscale neighborhood of Santa Clara, California. There was yet more outrage; more calls for gun control.
Terri Robinson burned her 3 year old child to death in her electric oven in Mississippi. Where were the riots in front of Sears, or Best Buy or other appliance stores? Why did legislators not decry the open use and ownership of convection ovens?
Amy Bishop shot 6; 3 died, at the University of Alabama. She was mad because of her denial of tenure. She had shot her brother to death many years before, but was never charged. People called for restrictions on guns.
Carmela Dela Rosa killed her two-year-old granddaughter by throwing her from a 5 story parking garage walkway, while her whole family walked in front of her. Where is the movement for the elimination of all buildings more than one story high or enclosed canopies on all elevated structures?
Jared L. Loughner killed federal judge Roll, and 9 year old girl; he shot US Rep. Giffords in AZ, and wounded more. We need gun control!
Andrew J. Stack III flew his small personal plane into the Austin, TX IRS building, killing two and injuring several more. Yet no one demands that all private pilot licenses be rescinded. Private planes are not collected and destroyed in community “buy-back” programs.
Robert A. Hawkins killed eight people, wounded four more, and took his own life, all with the same rifle at a mall in Omaha, NE. There we many who renewed the call for “assault rifle” restrictions.
Christopher Fitzpatrick of Pennsylvania purposely killed his newborn daughter by dropping a cinder-block on her – twice – because he and his girlfriend “could not afford her”. Should we call for restrictions on sales of construction materials at Lowes, Home Depot and Menards?
John A. Muhammad and Lee B. Malvo killed 10 people, shot 3 more, and terrorized the Washington, DC area for weeks; they were referred to as the “Beltway Snipers”. There was a large outcry for stricter control over firearms.
Cameron Willingham killed his three young daughters by the means of arson of his family home in TX. Are we to eliminate matches and lighters, or call for their strict registration and licensing? Should we not live in homes that could catch fire?
Nadia Braxton shot her three children in the forehead, and then herself, in a murder-suicide in LA. Do we need guns in the home?
Nina Holbrook burned her father to death in IN, by setting him ablaze with a candle and camp-stove fuel. Should we confiscate all matches from the home, and only sell camp-stove fuel at federally licensed outlets, requiring background checks?
Faleh Almaleki killed his daughter in Phoenix, AZ by running her over, in a Muslim “honor killing”. Is Jeep to blame for her death?
Jeremiah Wright killed his 7 year old disabled son Jori Lirette by beheading him over the kitchen sink in LA. Was the knife at fault?
Jerome Isaac killed Deloris Gillespie, spraying her with gasoline and igniting her with a Molotov cocktail in a NY elevator. Blame Shell Oil?
Naim Muhammad drowned his two young sons in a creek in TX. Should all creeks have fences with gates and locks?
Arthur Morgan III killed his two-year old daughter by strapping her into her child-car-seat, and throwing her into a river in NJ.
Justin Carter shot and killed the parents of his friend, during an armed robbery in IN. There is outcry heard for more gun control.
Tyler Hadley killed his parents in FL when he was 17, by bludgeoning them to death with a hammer, because they would not allow him to have a party. He killed them mercilessly, then posted the party on face-book, and then hosted the party while their bodies lay locked in the master bedroom. Should we require a license to purchase or use a hammer?
David Laffer killed four people by indiscriminately shooting them in a NY pharmacy on Father’s Day. Gun Control needed!
Jeovanni Rosaria and Raymond Hernandez dropped a shopping cart on Marion Hedges from 4 stories above; is the cart at fault?
Janie Lou Gibbs poisoned her husband, three sons, and grandson to an untimely end over a period of years. No outcry is heard about the possession of arsenic.
James Byrd Jr., Jerid Sturman, Anthony Hill and Allen Rose all were dragged to death by vehicles, in separate incidents. Are the cars and trucks at fault?
Ka Yang, of Sacramento, CA killed her 6-week-old daughter by burning her to death in a microwave oven.
China Arnold killed her 1-month-old daughter in the microwave oven in Dayton, OH.
Elizabeth Otte killed her infant son by placing him in the microwave oven in New Kent, VA.
Tyler Deutsch killed his girlfriend’s 6-week-old infant by placing her in the freezer to silence her, in Tacoma, WA.
Ariel Smith killed the 5-month-old boy she was babysitting when she became frustrated, and placed him in the clothes dryer and turning it on, and then left.
Lakeisha Adams killed her 3-month-old son by placing him in the dryer in Louisiana; he was tumbled and burned so badly he was nearly unrecognizable.
Do we hear any calls for the removal of all these appliances from the home? Are they to have door locks on them? Should we see Whirlpool, Kenmore, GE and others held accountable for providing the instrument of death? Do we need a waiting period to buy an appliance, a license to own one, or a permit to operate one?
Jarrod Rudder killed two-year old Michael Pulliam by grabbing his wrist, and repeatedly flailing him against a wall until his brain bled out. What weapon or object would you place blame upon? Is the wall at fault?
Charlotte Schilling killed her 10 year old son (and herself) by strangulation with zip-ties. Should these be restricted items at the hardware store?
Josh Powell savagely attacked his two young sons with a hatchet by slashing their heads and throats. He then burned them and himself to death in a house fire in WA by dousing the interior with 10 gallons of gasoline and setting it ablaze. (Powell was the “person of interest” in his wife’s disappearance two years prior). If given a choice, would you federally regulate the purchase of camping hatchets with a mandatory 7-day waiting period? Or, just as some people support a firearm magazine capacity ban by limiting the number of rounds that they can hold, would you also support a “can ban” limiting fuel containers to 2 gallons instead of 5?
Kelli Murphy of Colorado killed her two young children by asphyxiation; she smothered them to death. Is a pillow to blame for the deaths?
Ana Lilia killed her boyfriend by stabbing him in the head, multiple times, with her Stiletto heel, near Houston, TX. Should women need permits to own shoes?
Lois A. Goodman, 70 years old, killed her 80 year old husband by repeatedly striking him on the head with a coffee mug. Should we outlaw porcelain drinking cups? Perhaps we should limit the size of mugs to 6 ounces, because no one “needs” a high-capacity mug …
Adam Lanza killed his mother at home, then 6 adults and 20 young children at an elementary school in CT. He used semi-auto rifles and handguns.
Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols killed 168 people and injured 800 more by exploding a home-crafted explosive from commonly available diesel fuel and fertilizer in OK. Are farm supply stores to blame? Should farmers need licenses and permits to operate their businesses with these items?
Jasper Smiddie, at 19 years old, killed his grandmother in FL, merely to spite his uncle, by hitting her with a wrench, and shooting her with a cross-bow and stabbing her 93 (ninety-three!) times. Which weapon do you think killed her? Should we take away rights to buy and use kitchen knives and hand tools, as well as the hunting weapon? Should Craftsman, Cutco and Barnett all fear legal actions for making such implements?
Elliot Rodger, 22, stabbed to death three people at his apartment, shot to death three more on the Santa Barbara campus, and critically injured others with his car. Calls rang out soon after for an assault weapons ban, ... which CA already has. However, Rodger never used a rifle; he only used a legally purchased handgun. And a sharp instrument. And a BMW.
James Earl Ray assassinated Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. outside his hotel room in Memphis with a rifle-shot across the parking lot. As a white male, Ray is labeled as racist, and this event starts one of the earliest public calls for gun control.
Izola Curry attempted to kill Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. at a book signing, (10 years before he was shot by Ray). Curry stabbed King deep into the chest with a letter opener, and narrowly missed his aorta. No one called for the elimination of household desk items. (Curry vehemently hated Dr. King, and the NAACP; Curry was never called a racist because Curry was a black female …)
Spread the word by relating facts. Use the websites I've given you and the events above to show others how to analyze data and make clear-headed decisions.
When people intend to kill others, they will use the tool they prefer. That should not make the crime any more or less palatable.
My name is David Newton, and I approved this message.
.
Take away guns, and other implements will be used. Guns are tools; how they are used or misused is only a choice by a human, and nothing more.
I am VERY pro-gun. As most of you know, I am also a senior statistical process quality engineer. I live my life by facts, not rhetoric and mythology. And I try my best to spread it to others. Why guess when we can know?
Here is a compilation of FACTS that I've put together, and I print them off and carry in my wallet, so I can not only share this info, but I don't have to rely on my memory (as I age). My credibility is my livelihood. So I base my shared info on FACTS. Some of these are infamous and you've certainly heard of them. Some you likely have never heard before. You are welcome to copy/paste this list, as it is simply a reading of historical facts; I don't own this info, the world does. This list is meant as a talking-point tool when you confront a "non-believer", so to speak. I use this list all the time. When you talk to an anti-gun person, ask them to read the list out loud. (Hand it to them and tell them to read it aloud - doing this forces them into ownership of the reality of the info; it's an interview technique from my detective days). The intent of this list is to show how various methods will have the same result. Different inputs; same output.
Seung-Hui Cho shot and killed 32 people at Virginia Tech. There is massive protest; people called for more gun control.
Haiyang Zhu decapitated a fellow female student, in a public café on the campus at Virginia Tech (more than a year after the famous Cho shootings). No outcry echoes in the campus halls for the confiscation of kitchen knives, or the cessation of manufacture of such instruments.
Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold commit atrocities with guns and pipe bombs at Columbine in CO. There is a major outcry for gun control, but not pipes.
(Juvenile Female) savagely attacked fellow students at Columbine High School 13 years later, with a hammer. No outcry for tool control?
Michael Carneal kills three students at school in Paducah KY by shooting them. Gun control now! shouts the public ...
Darlie Routier stabs her children to death with a kitchen knife. No demands for sharp steel objects to be licensed, or controlled.
Jeffrey Wiese goes on a rampage in Red Lake, MN, killing several by shooting them. “Give us gun control!” is heard everywhere.
Clayton Ellington bludgeons his entire family to death with a hammer. There are no protests at ACE hardware for selling the offensive tools. No lawsuits are filed against Stanley or Craftsman for making them.
Steven Kazmierczak shoots 24 people at the University of Northern Illinois; 6 die. Resounding calls are heard for tighter gun laws and fewer firearms.
Andrea Yates murders her five children by drowning them, successively one at a time, in the family home. There is no backlash against bathtubs, faucets, or the plumbers that install them. Manufacturers like Koehler and Delta fear no litigation or retribution.
“Kip” Kinkle shot and killed his parents, two students at school, and wounded twenty more. Oregon tightens gun control.
Lashanda Armstrong killed herself and three children by driving her minivan into the Hudson River. Did anyone sue the mini-van maker for negligence or culpability? Did NY tighten driver’s license requirements due to her actions? Should one need to pass a criminal background check just to drive?
Charles Roberts shot several Amish children at one-room school house in PA. Yet more demands are heard for more gun laws.
Chris Coleman strangled his entire family to death with hay bailing twine, in Illinois. There are no threats of lawsuits for makers of twine, nor protests at farm-supply stores. No calls are heard for twine to be kept under lock and key around the farm.
Scott Roeder shoots George Tiller (the infamous abortion doctor) to death in Kansas. How can we NOT have more gun laws?
Susan Smith of North Carolina drowned her children in her car by strapping them in, and driving it into a small lake. No one calls for the elimination of motor vehicles or restricted lake access.
Mark Barton shoots 20 people (9 of which die) at stock trading firm in Georgia. “We must have more laws and fewer handguns!”
Mark Barton (yes, the very same person) kills his entire family by viciously beating them to death with a hammer, only a few hours before his shooting spree. Yet, no outcry is heard for increased hand-tool laws, registration, confiscation, or elimination.
Devan Kalathat, 42, shot and killed his two children and three other relatives, then killed himself in an upscale neighborhood of Santa Clara, California. There was yet more outrage; more calls for gun control.
Terri Robinson burned her 3 year old child to death in her electric oven in Mississippi. Where were the riots in front of Sears, or Best Buy or other appliance stores? Why did legislators not decry the open use and ownership of convection ovens?
Amy Bishop shot 6; 3 died, at the University of Alabama. She was mad because of her denial of tenure. She had shot her brother to death many years before, but was never charged. People called for restrictions on guns.
Carmela Dela Rosa killed her two-year-old granddaughter by throwing her from a 5 story parking garage walkway, while her whole family walked in front of her. Where is the movement for the elimination of all buildings more than one story high or enclosed canopies on all elevated structures?
Jared L. Loughner killed federal judge Roll, and 9 year old girl; he shot US Rep. Giffords in AZ, and wounded more. We need gun control!
Andrew J. Stack III flew his small personal plane into the Austin, TX IRS building, killing two and injuring several more. Yet no one demands that all private pilot licenses be rescinded. Private planes are not collected and destroyed in community “buy-back” programs.
Robert A. Hawkins killed eight people, wounded four more, and took his own life, all with the same rifle at a mall in Omaha, NE. There we many who renewed the call for “assault rifle” restrictions.
Christopher Fitzpatrick of Pennsylvania purposely killed his newborn daughter by dropping a cinder-block on her – twice – because he and his girlfriend “could not afford her”. Should we call for restrictions on sales of construction materials at Lowes, Home Depot and Menards?
John A. Muhammad and Lee B. Malvo killed 10 people, shot 3 more, and terrorized the Washington, DC area for weeks; they were referred to as the “Beltway Snipers”. There was a large outcry for stricter control over firearms.
Cameron Willingham killed his three young daughters by the means of arson of his family home in TX. Are we to eliminate matches and lighters, or call for their strict registration and licensing? Should we not live in homes that could catch fire?
Nadia Braxton shot her three children in the forehead, and then herself, in a murder-suicide in LA. Do we need guns in the home?
Nina Holbrook burned her father to death in IN, by setting him ablaze with a candle and camp-stove fuel. Should we confiscate all matches from the home, and only sell camp-stove fuel at federally licensed outlets, requiring background checks?
Faleh Almaleki killed his daughter in Phoenix, AZ by running her over, in a Muslim “honor killing”. Is Jeep to blame for her death?
Jeremiah Wright killed his 7 year old disabled son Jori Lirette by beheading him over the kitchen sink in LA. Was the knife at fault?
Jerome Isaac killed Deloris Gillespie, spraying her with gasoline and igniting her with a Molotov cocktail in a NY elevator. Blame Shell Oil?
Naim Muhammad drowned his two young sons in a creek in TX. Should all creeks have fences with gates and locks?
Arthur Morgan III killed his two-year old daughter by strapping her into her child-car-seat, and throwing her into a river in NJ.
Justin Carter shot and killed the parents of his friend, during an armed robbery in IN. There is outcry heard for more gun control.
Tyler Hadley killed his parents in FL when he was 17, by bludgeoning them to death with a hammer, because they would not allow him to have a party. He killed them mercilessly, then posted the party on face-book, and then hosted the party while their bodies lay locked in the master bedroom. Should we require a license to purchase or use a hammer?
David Laffer killed four people by indiscriminately shooting them in a NY pharmacy on Father’s Day. Gun Control needed!
Jeovanni Rosaria and Raymond Hernandez dropped a shopping cart on Marion Hedges from 4 stories above; is the cart at fault?
Janie Lou Gibbs poisoned her husband, three sons, and grandson to an untimely end over a period of years. No outcry is heard about the possession of arsenic.
James Byrd Jr., Jerid Sturman, Anthony Hill and Allen Rose all were dragged to death by vehicles, in separate incidents. Are the cars and trucks at fault?
Ka Yang, of Sacramento, CA killed her 6-week-old daughter by burning her to death in a microwave oven.
China Arnold killed her 1-month-old daughter in the microwave oven in Dayton, OH.
Elizabeth Otte killed her infant son by placing him in the microwave oven in New Kent, VA.
Tyler Deutsch killed his girlfriend’s 6-week-old infant by placing her in the freezer to silence her, in Tacoma, WA.
Ariel Smith killed the 5-month-old boy she was babysitting when she became frustrated, and placed him in the clothes dryer and turning it on, and then left.
Lakeisha Adams killed her 3-month-old son by placing him in the dryer in Louisiana; he was tumbled and burned so badly he was nearly unrecognizable.
Do we hear any calls for the removal of all these appliances from the home? Are they to have door locks on them? Should we see Whirlpool, Kenmore, GE and others held accountable for providing the instrument of death? Do we need a waiting period to buy an appliance, a license to own one, or a permit to operate one?
Jarrod Rudder killed two-year old Michael Pulliam by grabbing his wrist, and repeatedly flailing him against a wall until his brain bled out. What weapon or object would you place blame upon? Is the wall at fault?
Charlotte Schilling killed her 10 year old son (and herself) by strangulation with zip-ties. Should these be restricted items at the hardware store?
Josh Powell savagely attacked his two young sons with a hatchet by slashing their heads and throats. He then burned them and himself to death in a house fire in WA by dousing the interior with 10 gallons of gasoline and setting it ablaze. (Powell was the “person of interest” in his wife’s disappearance two years prior). If given a choice, would you federally regulate the purchase of camping hatchets with a mandatory 7-day waiting period? Or, just as some people support a firearm magazine capacity ban by limiting the number of rounds that they can hold, would you also support a “can ban” limiting fuel containers to 2 gallons instead of 5?
Kelli Murphy of Colorado killed her two young children by asphyxiation; she smothered them to death. Is a pillow to blame for the deaths?
Ana Lilia killed her boyfriend by stabbing him in the head, multiple times, with her Stiletto heel, near Houston, TX. Should women need permits to own shoes?
Lois A. Goodman, 70 years old, killed her 80 year old husband by repeatedly striking him on the head with a coffee mug. Should we outlaw porcelain drinking cups? Perhaps we should limit the size of mugs to 6 ounces, because no one “needs” a high-capacity mug …
Adam Lanza killed his mother at home, then 6 adults and 20 young children at an elementary school in CT. He used semi-auto rifles and handguns.
Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols killed 168 people and injured 800 more by exploding a home-crafted explosive from commonly available diesel fuel and fertilizer in OK. Are farm supply stores to blame? Should farmers need licenses and permits to operate their businesses with these items?
Jasper Smiddie, at 19 years old, killed his grandmother in FL, merely to spite his uncle, by hitting her with a wrench, and shooting her with a cross-bow and stabbing her 93 (ninety-three!) times. Which weapon do you think killed her? Should we take away rights to buy and use kitchen knives and hand tools, as well as the hunting weapon? Should Craftsman, Cutco and Barnett all fear legal actions for making such implements?
Elliot Rodger, 22, stabbed to death three people at his apartment, shot to death three more on the Santa Barbara campus, and critically injured others with his car. Calls rang out soon after for an assault weapons ban, ... which CA already has. However, Rodger never used a rifle; he only used a legally purchased handgun. And a sharp instrument. And a BMW.
James Earl Ray assassinated Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. outside his hotel room in Memphis with a rifle-shot across the parking lot. As a white male, Ray is labeled as racist, and this event starts one of the earliest public calls for gun control.
Izola Curry attempted to kill Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. at a book signing, (10 years before he was shot by Ray). Curry stabbed King deep into the chest with a letter opener, and narrowly missed his aorta. No one called for the elimination of household desk items. (Curry vehemently hated Dr. King, and the NAACP; Curry was never called a racist because Curry was a black female …)
Spread the word by relating facts. Use the websites I've given you and the events above to show others how to analyze data and make clear-headed decisions.
When people intend to kill others, they will use the tool they prefer. That should not make the crime any more or less palatable.
My name is David Newton, and I approved this message.
.
Last edited:
You (not military) don't use guns to kill in defense. You use them to stop an equal (lethal) threat. That (lethal) threat can present itself in a number of ways- the important part is that the use of a firearm is proportional to the threat. Everyone wants them because they are simple to use and are themselves a force multiplier. When faced with a group of attackers, or an attacker who himself is armed with a force multiplier (bat, knife, hammer and so on), defending your life with a firearm is made much easier.
That is exactly right when it comes to a citizen defending themselves. The goal is to stop the lethal attack on you. The goal is not to kill the attacker.
That elderly guy who killed those two teenage intruders got in trouble after he cold-bloodedly finished off the teenage girl who was with the teenage boy who had broke into his house. The guy who blindly fired shotgun blasts into his garage got in trouble also.
If somebody breaks into your house and threatens your life, you have a RIGHT to self-defense! If you have a gun legally owned you can defend yourself with the gun. The goal is to stop the attack. If the attacker coming at you is killed while coming at you that is self defense. If the attacker runs after he/she sees you with the gun, LET THE ATTACKER RUN! The attack on you has failed-correct? Let the police track down the person who broke into your house.
Don't do silly stuff like deciding to administer a 'kill' shot on a wounded intruder. If the intruder is wounded the attack has failed-correct? Call the police and the police and medical first responders can take care of things from there.
Don't do something silly like shooting shotgun blast blindly into a garage. What if the intruder is a 10 year old boy? What if the person in the garage you THINK is an intruder is a family member?
Obviously the first things you should do is make sure you have good security for your home (good locks, don't leave doors unlocked, good window security, etc.). I lock my doors all the time-even when I am at home. It sort of stops somebody from just walking in.
If you hear somebody breaking in call the police first if you can. Then defend yourself in any way that you can. With a gun or a baseball bat of whatever.
If you have no choice but to shoot the intruder to defend yourself that is self-defense. It is even better if the intruder runs. Because if you are involved in a fatal shooting in self-defense the family members of the intruder will probably try to sue you, etc.
A little bit of common sense goes a long way.
But you are probably safe if your house was locked and somebody broke in and came at you with a weapon, like a knife. If you had to shoot and kill that attacker, that is self-defense. And people are allowed to defend themselves. You will still have to hire a good attorney and all of that. There will be a grand jury investigation.
That elderly guy who killed those two teenage intruders got in trouble after he cold-bloodedly finished off the teenage girl who was with the teenage boy who had broke into his house. The guy who blindly fired shotgun blasts into his garage got in trouble also.
If somebody breaks into your house and threatens your life, you have a RIGHT to self-defense! If you have a gun legally owned you can defend yourself with the gun. The goal is to stop the attack. If the attacker coming at you is killed while coming at you that is self defense. If the attacker runs after he/she sees you with the gun, LET THE ATTACKER RUN! The attack on you has failed-correct? Let the police track down the person who broke into your house.
Don't do silly stuff like deciding to administer a 'kill' shot on a wounded intruder. If the intruder is wounded the attack has failed-correct? Call the police and the police and medical first responders can take care of things from there.
Don't do something silly like shooting shotgun blast blindly into a garage. What if the intruder is a 10 year old boy? What if the person in the garage you THINK is an intruder is a family member?
Obviously the first things you should do is make sure you have good security for your home (good locks, don't leave doors unlocked, good window security, etc.). I lock my doors all the time-even when I am at home. It sort of stops somebody from just walking in.
If you hear somebody breaking in call the police first if you can. Then defend yourself in any way that you can. With a gun or a baseball bat of whatever.
If you have no choice but to shoot the intruder to defend yourself that is self-defense. It is even better if the intruder runs. Because if you are involved in a fatal shooting in self-defense the family members of the intruder will probably try to sue you, etc.
A little bit of common sense goes a long way.
But you are probably safe if your house was locked and somebody broke in and came at you with a weapon, like a knife. If you had to shoot and kill that attacker, that is self-defense. And people are allowed to defend themselves. You will still have to hire a good attorney and all of that. There will be a grand jury investigation.
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Originally Posted By: The_Eric
You (not military) don't use guns to kill in defense. You use them to stop an equal (lethal) threat. That (lethal) threat can present itself in a number of ways- the important part is that the use of a firearm is proportional to the threat. Everyone wants them because they are simple to use and are themselves a force multiplier. When faced with a group of attackers, or an attacker who himself is armed with a force multiplier (bat, knife, hammer and so on), defending your life with a firearm is made much easier.
See, that's exactly in line with my point. A gun is a force multiplier unlike any other, and that is the foundation for the argument that citizens should be able to own guns. If we accept that, it makes piffle of the argument that murderers would be murderers with or without guns. Surely SOME would, but FEWER than if they didn't have guns.
There are PLENTY of perfectly sensible arguments in favor of regular people having access to guns. "Killers will kill either way" ain't one of them.
You (not military) don't use guns to kill in defense. You use them to stop an equal (lethal) threat. That (lethal) threat can present itself in a number of ways- the important part is that the use of a firearm is proportional to the threat. Everyone wants them because they are simple to use and are themselves a force multiplier. When faced with a group of attackers, or an attacker who himself is armed with a force multiplier (bat, knife, hammer and so on), defending your life with a firearm is made much easier.
See, that's exactly in line with my point. A gun is a force multiplier unlike any other, and that is the foundation for the argument that citizens should be able to own guns. If we accept that, it makes piffle of the argument that murderers would be murderers with or without guns. Surely SOME would, but FEWER than if they didn't have guns.
There are PLENTY of perfectly sensible arguments in favor of regular people having access to guns. "Killers will kill either way" ain't one of them.
I'd say we're going to have to agree to disagree. There's plenty of good, solid info in this thread alone (let alone from other sources) that is unbiased and backed by fact that tells you what you need to know. I for one firmly believe that people will always be violent nasty evil creatures, regardless of the weapon(s) at hand and would like to take every step I can to defend (NOT GO ON THE OFFENSIVE) myself. A person or group of people don't need firearms to seriously wound or kill another person.
If guns were made illegal or available only for the police and military it is a proven fact that crime goes up instead of going down. dnewton3 has already presented volumes of documentation that can't be argued with very easily.
Let me given an example. How does a woman, weighing about 125 pounds, defend herself in her apartment or house if a large male intruder breaks in and threatens her, maybe with a knife or a gun? What exactly is that woman supposed to do to defend herself? Plead with the attacker to spare her life? Beg the attacker to leave her alone?
If she has a gun the gun gives her a chance to defend herself, even if the attacker outweighs her by 100 pounds. It seems to me that all of this should be easy to understand.
I had to call the Sheriff's Office last 4th of July. There was a ban on fireworks (because of the severe drought) and a neighbor was setting off fireworks and started a small fire on my property in dry brush. I called the Sheriff's Office. It took 30 minutes for an officer to arrive. I went out with a shovel to put out the fire but fortunately it went out by itself.
If somebody breaks into my home I will call 911 if I have time. But I will defend myself. And having two handguns gives me a chance to defend myself. I know that it might take 30 minutes for help to arrive. That means I have to defend myself in that period of time.
Some people who are extremely anti-gun cannot seem to understand that help may not be able to arrive quickly, and a person will have to defend themselves.
Some of the people who are extremely anti-gun live in gated communities where there may even be a security guard on duty.
Let me given an example. How does a woman, weighing about 125 pounds, defend herself in her apartment or house if a large male intruder breaks in and threatens her, maybe with a knife or a gun? What exactly is that woman supposed to do to defend herself? Plead with the attacker to spare her life? Beg the attacker to leave her alone?
If she has a gun the gun gives her a chance to defend herself, even if the attacker outweighs her by 100 pounds. It seems to me that all of this should be easy to understand.
I had to call the Sheriff's Office last 4th of July. There was a ban on fireworks (because of the severe drought) and a neighbor was setting off fireworks and started a small fire on my property in dry brush. I called the Sheriff's Office. It took 30 minutes for an officer to arrive. I went out with a shovel to put out the fire but fortunately it went out by itself.
If somebody breaks into my home I will call 911 if I have time. But I will defend myself. And having two handguns gives me a chance to defend myself. I know that it might take 30 minutes for help to arrive. That means I have to defend myself in that period of time.
Some people who are extremely anti-gun cannot seem to understand that help may not be able to arrive quickly, and a person will have to defend themselves.
Some of the people who are extremely anti-gun live in gated communities where there may even be a security guard on duty.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
So predictable. I disagree with one tangential point and you guys think I'm against your whole thesis...
Your argument doesn't matter. We have no way of knowing what effect a gun will have on a person's mindset. And it doesn't matter to the victim what motivations and triggers are present. You can ponder this stuff all day long but no one cares.
So predictable. I disagree with one tangential point and you guys think I'm against your whole thesis...
Your argument doesn't matter. We have no way of knowing what effect a gun will have on a person's mindset. And it doesn't matter to the victim what motivations and triggers are present. You can ponder this stuff all day long but no one cares.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Do you understand the difference between "guns make killing easier" and "guns make killing possible?"
Yes I do. Lots of things make killing easier, guns being one of the more noteworthy ones.
In case I missed it, why do you take this stance?
Quote:
There are PLENTY of perfectly sensible arguments in favor of regular people having access to guns. "Killers will kill either way" ain't one of them
It is my firm belief and a proven fact that "Killers will kill either way".
If you don't believe that having access to firearms is important for self defense, what do you propose people do to protect themselves in the unlikely case of an attack?
Do you understand the difference between "guns make killing easier" and "guns make killing possible?"
Yes I do. Lots of things make killing easier, guns being one of the more noteworthy ones.
In case I missed it, why do you take this stance?
Quote:
There are PLENTY of perfectly sensible arguments in favor of regular people having access to guns. "Killers will kill either way" ain't one of them
It is my firm belief and a proven fact that "Killers will kill either way".
If you don't believe that having access to firearms is important for self defense, what do you propose people do to protect themselves in the unlikely case of an attack?
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