Using Heavier Weight Oil
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"Notice it doesn't say anything about thicker oils providing any additional protection."
It states that 5W20 provides good fuel economy, period. The question is then why are other oils recommended, including a 5W40 which labeled a 'Gold' oil ? If 5W20 provided as good of protection as the other oils there would be no reason to recommend the other oils.
If 5W20 provided better protection why would Honda recommend the other oils, and why didn't Honda state that it provided better protection as well as better fuel economy ?
One can infer that 5W20 provides better fuel economy, that heavier oils provide better protection, and that heavier oils were used for design and development.
It states that 5W20 provides good fuel economy, period. The question is then why are other oils recommended, including a 5W40 which labeled a 'Gold' oil ? If 5W20 provided as good of protection as the other oils there would be no reason to recommend the other oils.
If 5W20 provided better protection why would Honda recommend the other oils, and why didn't Honda state that it provided better protection as well as better fuel economy ?
One can infer that 5W20 provides better fuel economy, that heavier oils provide better protection, and that heavier oils were used for design and development.
Sure one can. Especially if one keeps in mind that inference isn't necessarily factual.
Right on, Titan. That inference reminds me of a Monty Python scene.
Sir Bedevere: There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
Peasant 1: Are there? Oh well, tell us.
Sir Bedevere: Tell me. What do you do with witches?
Peasant 1: Burn them.
Sir Bedevere: And what do you burn, apart from witches?
Peasant 1: More witches.
Peasant 2: Wood.
Sir Bedevere: Good. Now, why do witches burn?
Peasant 3: ...because they're made of... wood?
Sir Bedevere: Good. So how do you tell whether she is made of wood?
Peasant 1: Build a bridge out of her.
Sir Bedevere: But can you not also build bridges out of stone?
Peasant 1: Oh yeah.
Sir Bedevere: Does wood sink in water?
Peasant 1: No, no, it floats!... It floats! Throw her into the pond!
Sir Bedevere: No, no. What else floats in water?
Peasant 1: Bread.
Peasant 2: Apples.
Peasant 3: Very small rocks.
Peasant 1: Cider.
Peasant 2: Gravy.
Peasant 3: Cherries.
Peasant 1: Mud.
Peasant 2: Churches.
Peasant 3: Lead! Lead!
King Arthur: A Duck.
Sir Bedevere: ...Exactly. So, logically...
Peasant 1: If she weighed the same as a duck... she's made of wood.
Sir Bedevere: And therefore...
Peasant 2: ...A witch!
Sir Bedevere: There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
Peasant 1: Are there? Oh well, tell us.
Sir Bedevere: Tell me. What do you do with witches?
Peasant 1: Burn them.
Sir Bedevere: And what do you burn, apart from witches?
Peasant 1: More witches.
Peasant 2: Wood.
Sir Bedevere: Good. Now, why do witches burn?
Peasant 3: ...because they're made of... wood?
Sir Bedevere: Good. So how do you tell whether she is made of wood?
Peasant 1: Build a bridge out of her.
Sir Bedevere: But can you not also build bridges out of stone?
Peasant 1: Oh yeah.
Sir Bedevere: Does wood sink in water?
Peasant 1: No, no, it floats!... It floats! Throw her into the pond!
Sir Bedevere: No, no. What else floats in water?
Peasant 1: Bread.
Peasant 2: Apples.
Peasant 3: Very small rocks.
Peasant 1: Cider.
Peasant 2: Gravy.
Peasant 3: Cherries.
Peasant 1: Mud.
Peasant 2: Churches.
Peasant 3: Lead! Lead!
King Arthur: A Duck.
Sir Bedevere: ...Exactly. So, logically...
Peasant 1: If she weighed the same as a duck... she's made of wood.
Sir Bedevere: And therefore...
Peasant 2: ...A witch!
I'm curious too about the heavier weight oil question. I'm doing a heavier oil experiment right now. I switched from 5W30 to a mixture containing mostly a 'racing' 20W50. I have noticed no change in MPG. Engine sounds and runs much smoother. I'm going to do a UOA at maybe 5000 miles to check the wear. It's a 00 Subaru Outback 2.5L 4cyl 100k mi.
I'm a Lumberjack and that's Okay
I sleeps all night and I works all day
I skips and jumps
I eats me lunch
I like to press wild flo'ers
I dress up like a girlie
and hang around in bars...
Yep, the Flying Circus is a funny show!
I sleeps all night and I works all day
I skips and jumps
I eats me lunch
I like to press wild flo'ers
I dress up like a girlie
and hang around in bars...
Yep, the Flying Circus is a funny show!
it would do you no harm.
From another thread. Ford, like Honda, recommends 5W20 for fuel economy, where they've stated so in their TSBs regarding it's use. Like Honda they use also use heavier oils outside of the US. This is common knowledge now in this forum.
The question is still one of 'why are other oils recommended if 5W20 is supposed to provide superior protection ?',
and 'why is 5W20 only recommended for improved fuel economy if 5W20 is supposed to provide superior protection ?',
and 'why do so few high peformance vehicles, including turbo charged models, not use 5W20 if it is supposed to provide superior protection ?',
and 'why doesn't Honda and Ford state that 5W20 provides superior protection if it is supposed to provide superior protection ?'.
Because it doesn't, it provides better fuel economy with adequate protection.
"A lot of (most ?) police departments don't seem to keep cars beyond 100k miles as it's considered a safety issue. 5W20 works fine, use it with no concern, but the question for those who do plan on keeping their vehicles for as long as possible is 'what oil provides the maximum engine life', not which one provides adequate life or the best fuel mileage. It's interesting that Ford held closed door sessions with police departments when discussing 5w20. I guess it's to continue keeping it a secret that 5w20 provides the best protection possible, as Ford certainly doesn't want that to get out.
http://www.pfmmag.com/MarchApril2004/MarchApril04fordPEB.htm
Ford Police Advisory Board
By Ed Sanow
Ford’s Police Advisory Board (PAB) ......
5W-20 Oil
Extended discussions were held, both in closed PAB sessions and in open sessions with Ford Fleet, on the use of 5W-20 oil in the 4.6L CVPI engine."
The question is still one of 'why are other oils recommended if 5W20 is supposed to provide superior protection ?',
and 'why is 5W20 only recommended for improved fuel economy if 5W20 is supposed to provide superior protection ?',
and 'why do so few high peformance vehicles, including turbo charged models, not use 5W20 if it is supposed to provide superior protection ?',
and 'why doesn't Honda and Ford state that 5W20 provides superior protection if it is supposed to provide superior protection ?'.
Because it doesn't, it provides better fuel economy with adequate protection.
"A lot of (most ?) police departments don't seem to keep cars beyond 100k miles as it's considered a safety issue. 5W20 works fine, use it with no concern, but the question for those who do plan on keeping their vehicles for as long as possible is 'what oil provides the maximum engine life', not which one provides adequate life or the best fuel mileage. It's interesting that Ford held closed door sessions with police departments when discussing 5w20. I guess it's to continue keeping it a secret that 5w20 provides the best protection possible, as Ford certainly doesn't want that to get out.
http://www.pfmmag.com/MarchApril2004/MarchApril04fordPEB.htm
Ford Police Advisory Board
By Ed Sanow
Ford’s Police Advisory Board (PAB) ......
5W-20 Oil
Extended discussions were held, both in closed PAB sessions and in open sessions with Ford Fleet, on the use of 5W-20 oil in the 4.6L CVPI engine."
1sttruck, I'm guessing that you believe if you continue to repeat these same fallacies of relevance over, and over, and over again, you're going to get someone to believe you?
In the spirit of providing BITOG members with knowledge that is actually useful, let me suggest you produce some real factual evidence minus the logical fallacies to support your position. Or maybe you can't, because there isn't any?
And don't you think it's a little disingenuous to mix your comments in with an article to give the impression it's from the linked article?
[ March 03, 2006, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]
In the spirit of providing BITOG members with knowledge that is actually useful, let me suggest you produce some real factual evidence minus the logical fallacies to support your position. Or maybe you can't, because there isn't any?
And don't you think it's a little disingenuous to mix your comments in with an article to give the impression it's from the linked article?
[ March 03, 2006, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]
From another thread, where a Honda manaul in Japanese listed several oils that could be used:
"Below is evidently a translation of the Honda manual. Just like Ford has stated the 0W-20 is recommended for better fuel mileage, with no other claims. 10W-30 appears to be the recommended general purpose oil, and 5W-40 is the 'Gold' oil.
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babe...da.co.jp/manual/cr-v/2004/servicedata/01.html
HONDA genuine oil (for 4 cycle four wheel cars)
Ultra LEO SL (API SL/GF-3 class SAE 0W-20)*
Ultra LTD SL (API SL/GF-3 class SAE 5W-30)
Ultra GOLD SL (API SL class SAE 5W-40)
Ultra MILD SL (API SL/GF-3 class SAE 10W-30)
*0W-20 is the oil which is superior in the economical fuel economy characteristic.
As for the motor oil of marketing, please use those of the viscosity which responds to the open air temperature on the basis of the right chart."
"Below is evidently a translation of the Honda manual. Just like Ford has stated the 0W-20 is recommended for better fuel mileage, with no other claims. 10W-30 appears to be the recommended general purpose oil, and 5W-40 is the 'Gold' oil.
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babe...da.co.jp/manual/cr-v/2004/servicedata/01.html
HONDA genuine oil (for 4 cycle four wheel cars)
Ultra LEO SL (API SL/GF-3 class SAE 0W-20)*
Ultra LTD SL (API SL/GF-3 class SAE 5W-30)
Ultra GOLD SL (API SL class SAE 5W-40)
Ultra MILD SL (API SL/GF-3 class SAE 10W-30)
*0W-20 is the oil which is superior in the economical fuel economy characteristic.
As for the motor oil of marketing, please use those of the viscosity which responds to the open air temperature on the basis of the right chart."
Well, be careful with the second sentence. In this particular Honda case, API-SL/GF-3 5-10w30 and API-SL 5w40 is among the recommendations.
One other point. If you're going use service recommendations from another part of the world, be darn sure the engine and all the associated accessories are identical.
I see way to many people assuming that engines here and another part of the world are identical just because the same general design is used or they're all built in the same place. I can tell you from direct experience, this is a false assumption.
I see way to many people assuming that engines here and another part of the world are identical just because the same general design is used or they're all built in the same place. I can tell you from direct experience, this is a false assumption.
There is a great link in the "Interesting Articles" section right now posted by TallPaul. One of the papers in the site titled: "Improved Fuel Efficiency by Lubricant Design: A Review" is extremely interesting. The entire article is very informative, but the stuff you guys are probably interested in starts on page 20. (I wouldn't skip the introduction though.) I’m trying to find some of the articles the author referenced.
Here's my personal views/biases on the 5w20 weight oils: If your manual calls for 5w20, and you use 5w20, your engine will perform very well with it. Imagine that. Running an oil with a higher viscosity/HTHS rating will lower your fuel economy substantially, but not necessarily offer you any substantial benefits in wear reduction.
In an engine that calls for 5w20, a "thin" 0w30 or 5w30 is not going to cause any issues if you live in a warm climate, but your fuel economy will probably still suffer, with only a marginally better decrease in wear as a benefit. I think the decision really just comes down what you value most, and how your personal habits coincide with the manufacturer’s recommendation. If you drive 1,000 miles a day in straight line, maybe you would want a heavier oil to save a few ppm of iron; maybe you would want a lighter oil to save a few gallons of gasoline. Whatever. The auto makers have to make a (more or less) one-size-fits-all selection for simplicity’s sake, and maybe your customs don’t exactly match up with the statistical average that they based their selection on. Tweak away, but realize that more often than not, you ARE the guy they figured into the equation and you don’t need to change anything.
I still have a hard time believing the extended OCIs some manufacturers are recommending these days, especially in the "early" miles of a car's life. After break-in, and if your driving habits are suitable to it, I can't see any reason not to follow the 7,500 or 10,000 mile regimens as prescribed, especially if a UOA deems it appropriate. Go look around in the analysis section if you still need convincing.
Here's my personal views/biases on the 5w20 weight oils: If your manual calls for 5w20, and you use 5w20, your engine will perform very well with it. Imagine that. Running an oil with a higher viscosity/HTHS rating will lower your fuel economy substantially, but not necessarily offer you any substantial benefits in wear reduction.
In an engine that calls for 5w20, a "thin" 0w30 or 5w30 is not going to cause any issues if you live in a warm climate, but your fuel economy will probably still suffer, with only a marginally better decrease in wear as a benefit. I think the decision really just comes down what you value most, and how your personal habits coincide with the manufacturer’s recommendation. If you drive 1,000 miles a day in straight line, maybe you would want a heavier oil to save a few ppm of iron; maybe you would want a lighter oil to save a few gallons of gasoline. Whatever. The auto makers have to make a (more or less) one-size-fits-all selection for simplicity’s sake, and maybe your customs don’t exactly match up with the statistical average that they based their selection on. Tweak away, but realize that more often than not, you ARE the guy they figured into the equation and you don’t need to change anything.
I still have a hard time believing the extended OCIs some manufacturers are recommending these days, especially in the "early" miles of a car's life. After break-in, and if your driving habits are suitable to it, I can't see any reason not to follow the 7,500 or 10,000 mile regimens as prescribed, especially if a UOA deems it appropriate. Go look around in the analysis section if you still need convincing.
427Z06, I'm mentioning Honda and Ford in general so that would make that sentence very valid.
I would guess the mechanical properties would be equal in otherwise equal engines (equal production lines) no matter where they are built or are you implying that NA build/sold engines are superior???
What "associated accessories" would cause the engine to prefer only xxW-20 oils??
I would guess the mechanical properties would be equal in otherwise equal engines (equal production lines) no matter where they are built or are you implying that NA build/sold engines are superior???
What "associated accessories" would cause the engine to prefer only xxW-20 oils??
Duh, why didn't I give everybody the link *smack*
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000494
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000494
Thanks stringsattached. That paper is an "oldie but goodie" (published in 2000). Many of us have read that paper and many more by that author.
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If "accessories" means in this context engine parts that may differ depending on the market, then I can see how they may affect oil requirements or which oils are acceptable. Such engine parts would be:
- roller cams
- modified oil channels
- low tension rings
- high output oil pump
In this case, these modification would allow the use of thinner oil. Would the thinner oil be preferred? The answer depends likely on your own criteria and preferences.
moribundman, that reminds of that saying about the word "assume".
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