Two2Cool oil additive -- info? opinions?

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wrooster

Joined
Feb 21, 2005
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new jersey, usa
hi folks,
been lurking on BITOG for a long time, GREAT INFO i learned here, finally have a reason to "break my duck" as they say... now for a longish post.

does anyone have any experiences with an oil additive called "Two2Cool"?
Two2Cool Home Page

the manufacturer states (copied from their product info page):
- Instantly drops engine oil temps, 40 to 60 degrees
- Safe for all 2 and 4 stroke applications
- Dyno proven HP increases (1.3 hp gain on a KTM 50cc Mini)
- Contains no friction modifiers (moly, Teflon, or silicone) and is safe for all clutches
- Significantly reduces heat / wear
- Increases the life of all oil related parts
- Has no residual effects, empties out with every oil change
- Compatible with all engine oil
- Add 2 oz. per Quart of engine oil
- Saves on expensive repairs

now before you jump on me and say "what are you shilling for here ace?"... i'm not affilliated with the above company, in fact i'm not even a user of their product. on another forum (a four stroke offroad motorcycle forum called "Thumpertalk"), the manufacturer of Two2Cool has reiterated the claims above and made further claims, including the following:

(1)
quote:
I see that you ride a 250F. A YZ250F ridden in tight woods or by a fast B rider or above will have engine oil temps above 300F. [...] There is no engine oil I know of that claims it will survive in these extreme temps.
Click to expand...
(2)
quote:
As far as how it works I will be glad to answer. Its a very long explanation especially since there is more than one reason why two2cool works. It also works in different ways as different conditions occur at different temps.

The primary way it works is as follows. It really doesnt cool your oil but keeps the heat from being made in the first place. All engine oil in its natural state repells from heat. Even during lower temps oil is repelling away at a mollecular level. As friction/heats rises the oil repells even faster. To the point when wet clutches become so hot they fizzle the oil and create a vapor barrier between the clutch and the oil itself.

Take a steel clutch plate and place it in the oven at its highest setting and it will not turn blue. Does anyone know how hot a clutch plate has to be to turn blue? Does anyone think a plate submerged in oil could even turn blue? Does anyone know how much HP each different model will loose on the dyno when the oil gets over 325f? 22cool changes the oils naturally bad characterisitc and makes it atttracted to heat. Oil treated w/22cool will actually run up hill towards heat.

Now as soon as your engine starts making heat the oil will bombard that spot and cool it. I know this sounds far too simple. keep in mind not just the clutch but every moving part in your bike is making heat. I am also fully aware the reason why someone would be skeptical. I appreciate all honest skeptisism. I can get much more technical but I prefer not to that here it takes too long.You will find in many posts on may sites that I have allways stated the only major variable you will see while using two2cool is how hot you are getting your engines oil the begin with.
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(3)
quote:
There are alot of claims I havent made yet. Some will seem much more outrageous. I try and let them out in dribbles especially when engineers are involved.
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(4)
quote:
Two2cool helps keep an oils viscosity stable. 75% of its makeup is a high quality carrier(oil). An oils viscosity lowers as temps rises. When oils get as hot is does in many motocross/woods bikes it lowers dramatically. How fast it does this and how much it lowers depends on the type of oil you are using and how much heat you are actually making. Oil treated with two2cool doesnt get as hot or get hot as fast so it helps keep the viscosity more stable.

Oil treated with two2cool helps with lubrication. Understanding that oil is being repelled from engine heat(hasnt been disputed here) when treated with two2cool its attracted to engine heat. This helps keep oil where it needs to be. Every gear to gear contact, the clutch, or any friction causing part of your engine naturally repells oil. When using two2cool it helps keep more oil in on,around and between these parts. Also it helps with shear and helps to make an oils additives last longer.
Click to expand...
(5)
quote:
If anyone has the need to know tech. info about two2cool or more about how it works I would be more than happy to do so on the phone. I appoligize for not being a good typer. It would take forever to type all that tech. stuff.

You may call me at 863 357 3400 and do so collect. Or send me a contact #, a good time and I will call you.
Click to expand...
anyway, i tried to summarize many many many pages of the original thread (click here if you have nothing to do for about 10 minutes) so that you could get the gist of things.

anyway, my questions all revolve around whether anyone has evaluated this, used this, or tested this, and what were the findings?

thanks
jim / wrooster
 
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm.....
If that oil makes your oil NOT ABSORB HEAT, that means your oil will fail to cool the parts it lubricates. Your engine was designed for oil with normal thermal properties.
Even if this stuff does what it claims in that regard, I'm not certain I'd consider that a "feature" so much as a "flaw".
 
I'd like to see it run upheat towards heat!!

Just call me cynical, skeptical, and a non-believer, whatever.......
grin.gif
 
bump, 'cause it's being discussed yet again and i'm hoping someone here (read: knowledgable about these types of things) can contribute soem words of wisdom.

yet another Two2cool thread over on ThumperTalk

e.g., from the vendor:
quote:
Asking for technical data to support our claims is not talking crap. I offered everyone all the tech info they wanted but in a different forum. My claims are not innacurate and can easlily be proven.
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jim / wrooster
 
Any lubricant that DOES NOT conduct heat would be worthless.

I have yet to find a fluid that does not conduct heat.

IMHO, another ignorant claim devoid of any knowledge of elementary chemistry, physics, or Tribology.

Look at this way, there is NO way you can reduce temperatures without first reducing friction or making a fluid have better conductivity.

Sheesh, we got additive salesmen and pushers coming out-of-the-woodwork here.


http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=001901
confused.gif


[ July 01, 2005, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]
 
Keep in mind that the cooling jacket around an engine only really cools the combustion space...head and upper part of the cylinder.

What cools the main bearings, rod bearings, camshaft bearings and lobe surfaces, wrist pin, etc.? The oil. The oil picks up heat and carries to the oil cooler, or air-cooled sump. The oil also passes some heat through the metal to the cooling water in the head.

So, anything that hinders the oil's ability to pick up heat is a problem.

Also, oil needs to be normally warm, maybe 180-210°F.


Ken
 
mola,
I have delt a little with the owner of the two2cool (norman). I don't use his product, and am not trying to advertise it at all. I can tell you that nobody that has posted here is a rep or salesman from two2cool. it's not the owner's style.
 
ditto.

i don't know if Molakule's comment was directed at me or not, but if you read through the links i posted to above it will become very clear very quickly that *i* was the one asking for data etc and generally trying to make the vendor cough up something, anything, that looked like actual science and engineering. didn't happen. i have lurked on BITOG for quite a while and have found this place to be full of knowledgable skeptics. hence my post at the top wanting to know if anyone had heard of this product.

just wanted to clear that up. i come in peace, and with a BSME.
smile.gif


jim / wrooster
 
now that we have that cleared up, *my* problem with this product is that 15 year old kids are being talked into placing this additive into expensive, high output multivalve 125-450cc 4 stroke motors -- which in some cases share lubrication with the wet clutch pack. the vendor has not provided any substansive engineering data that indicates there are no short or long term effects; the only thing he has provided is "look, all of these people buy my product, it's that good". well, i don't buy that.

jim / wrooster
 
Wrooster,

My comments were directed at the developer/salesman/whatever of this product to try and get him/her to provide some thermodynamic data and/or other scientific (tribological, chemical) information to determine if the claims for this product could be verified.

As a BSME, I think you can appreciate the skepticism I show when claims about unusual thermodynamic processes are being made.

Like you, I hate to see young college or high school people get duped into possibly ruining an engine or paying for plain old oil that does nothing more than thin the pocketbook.
biggthumbcoffe.gif


[ March 29, 2005, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
quote:
Originally posted by wrooster:
now that we have that cleared up, *my* problem with this product is that 15 year old kids are being talked into placing this additive into expensive, high output multivalve 125-450cc 4 stroke motors -- which in some cases share lubrication with the wet clutch pack. the vendor has not provided any substansive engineering data that indicates there are no short or long term effects; the only thing he has provided is "look, all of these people buy my product, it's that good". well, i don't buy that.

jim / wrooster
Click to expand...
I had the same experience with the guy. no real evidence but he did say "there is a reason a dealer in your state is buying 12 more cases"
he seems to be a nice guy and is not pushy. it does thank people for any word-of-mouth (word-of-finger?) advertising.

I do agree with mola, and I like mola's style. it only benefits the real genuine product seller to come here and discuss their products. if it is a ligitimate product they'll sell more from this site alone, and it's almost free! mola is a prime example of this with his business and his sharing of expertise in the oil chemistry feild.
 
I've been curious about this product also. I used it once in my 2 stroke gearbox. What I did notice was that my gearbox sounded louder, like the oil was thinner.

I sent a sample to Blackstone Labs for analysis. What they typically test for came back as all zeros. They suspect it contains Teflon but I'm not so sure if that would work in a wet clutch. From reading about this I thought it would contain high concentrations of Zinc. The only thing they could tell me was that it was 5wt and had a 360F flash point.

I'm not a supporter or a slammer of this product, just wondering what it is and if it is safe. Maybe someone has something to add here.
 
I was first thinking that it was maybe a strong dose of friction modifiers in a very lightweight carrier oil... but the VOA shows that not to be the case.

Maybe it does something along the lines of redline's water wetter: induces better contact between the fluid and the surface.

Id worry about effecting the surface free energy of my oil bulk, especially if it effects the molecular polarity of the oil by oxidation, etc.

No idea how it works, not sure if it does or doesnt. Id sure like to see a controlled lab test at least... Otherwise, I dont accept it. The results presented are void of useful parameters and pertinant info. LC and FP at least have lab tests to prove concept and results. Auto-rx has in-use tests proving its abilities. most products have results to prove them. Not always worth much, but at least they exist.

JMH
 
Mostly all BS...BUT GMO and Methyl esters will tend to "wet" out of hot metal but his product is 75% mineral oil as he says that leaves 25% of the methy esters is that a high enough treat rate I do not know and think a 60degF drop in temp is not do able.
bruce
 
Hi Wrooster. I've seen your posts at ThumperTalk. Certainly an emotional topic over there.

One thing I forgot to mention from the VOA - they said whatever the additives are they are carbon based as they don't check for those.

I suspect Two2Cool is a combination of the following ingredients:
1. Climbing Agent - Similar to what is in the Lucas oil additive. Norman says it will go "uphill".
2. AntiFoam agent which allows the oil to stay cooler.
These two additives work together to reduce heat.

One interesting thing I discovered. I tried the sample of Two2Cool mixed with Motul 2st trans oil, 10W30. When the oil came out it was almost clear but a strange color - like stale Wild Turkey if you can imagine that. Normally the Motul was black (change every 3 rides).

I have heard Norman say that Maxima MTL runs cooler. I tried some of that and when I changed it it was the same color as Motul w/Two2Cool. Note that when I change my oil I use a piece of Al foil as a funnel, a consistent background to observe the color.

I suspect why my gearbox sounded louder was that my clutch absorbed more oil than it normally does. There was absolutely no clutch shavings on my magnetic drain plug. Prior to that with the Motul it was significant. No shavings with the Maxima either.

For now I'm going to stick with the Maxima. If people run Two2Cool, it may be advisable to run a greater oil volume than recommended.

One experiment I thought about doing is also on this site in the gearbox oil test (I think) where they show the Schaeffers oil compared to Pennzoil and then add the Lucas to the Pennzoil to get it to climb. I may try that with the Motul with and without Two2Cool.

I'll try to do this soon and post some pics if it works out.
 
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