What makes Toyota, Toyota? How do they build such high quality vehicles? I've heard it's the manufacturing process or the parts they use(Which are now mostly US parts)? Maybe both? Cars today are all fairly good. For the most part, the gap has clearly closed between domestics and imports IMO. In fact many imports like VW's/Audi's MB/BMW's are no more reliable then any domestic. The numbers show this. But if you read Car and Driver or any other auto magazine, they always mention Toyota Build quality. It just amazes me that for 30 some years, they have consistantly made such high quality cars that last. Toyota is the industry leader in quality.
Toyota- Build Quality
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I think that toyota passes a tradition of quality to each and every new employee it hires. They train their people to pay attention to the small details which in return make a quality product. The training programs are second to none and the human resources division really hires only people who will continue the toyota legacy. I am not sure that gm or ford can compete with toyota core programs. Only Dodge and Chrysler through MB in gaining on toyota on some of these core values. Watch Dodge and Chrysler to become a very strong auto company in the near future.
Toyota makes a really good product, and I've owned several of them in the last few years. At present, we own one, my wife's 2001 Sequoia, which we bought new. This has been the most reliable vehicle we've ever owned. Other than a battery, tires, and routine maintenance items, we've had literally zero issues with this vehicle. In three years and a few months, we've experienced no build-quality failures at all. None. Amazing.
The Camry I recently divested myself of was almost as good. Other than an occasional colliding billiard ball sound from the dash, and minor squeak from the driver's door, it too demonstrated very high build quality.
Two weeks ago, I replaced the Camry with an Infiniti G35. Obviously, the jury's still out on this car, but so far, having logged 1200 miles in it, I'm very impressed. From the paint inward, this car has an edge on even the very good Camry. I do realize that this is something of an unfair comparison. I have a close friend who works in the upper executive structure at Nissan/Infiniti - USA. Coincidentally, we got to talk cars for a few minutes several days after I'd bought the G. He mentioned that model-for-model, the Infinities get a slower run down the assembly line, and get more lavish quality checks (vs. comparable Nissan models), which I suppose is not surprising. All I know is that so far, my G feels like it was machined from one big block of metal. Solid. And since the car is propelled by a 260hp/260ft-lb engine, it feels like a very light block of metal.
Likewise, I've experienced a series of late-model US cars as rentals, and yes, the gulf between them and the Japanese models has closed significantly. But alas, I can't say the domestics have caught all the way up yet.
The Camry I recently divested myself of was almost as good. Other than an occasional colliding billiard ball sound from the dash, and minor squeak from the driver's door, it too demonstrated very high build quality.
Two weeks ago, I replaced the Camry with an Infiniti G35. Obviously, the jury's still out on this car, but so far, having logged 1200 miles in it, I'm very impressed. From the paint inward, this car has an edge on even the very good Camry. I do realize that this is something of an unfair comparison. I have a close friend who works in the upper executive structure at Nissan/Infiniti - USA. Coincidentally, we got to talk cars for a few minutes several days after I'd bought the G. He mentioned that model-for-model, the Infinities get a slower run down the assembly line, and get more lavish quality checks (vs. comparable Nissan models), which I suppose is not surprising. All I know is that so far, my G feels like it was machined from one big block of metal. Solid. And since the car is propelled by a 260hp/260ft-lb engine, it feels like a very light block of metal.
Likewise, I've experienced a series of late-model US cars as rentals, and yes, the gulf between them and the Japanese models has closed significantly. But alas, I can't say the domestics have caught all the way up yet.
I read a great book about the "Toyota production system"...a very streamlined approach that eliminated part stockpiling, multitasked workers, etc. Much of this has caught on with the automation of the assembly processes, but 'back in the day' it made a big difference how you managed component flow in the factory.
I agree with you guys that the decisions made in the boardroom and the quality of suppliers is the big issue now. Just replaced a window switch in my Chevy at 5 years / 65K miles. An $85 part that should NEVER fail.
I agree with you guys that the decisions made in the boardroom and the quality of suppliers is the big issue now. Just replaced a window switch in my Chevy at 5 years / 65K miles. An $85 part that should NEVER fail.
One of my favorite articles on quality, similar to 'A Lesson Learned, A Lesson Forgotten'. See especially the Newport News Shipbuilding motto.
http://honoringhomer.net/
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20000525.html
Stranger in a Strange Land How Homer Sarasohn Brought Industrial Quality to Japan and Why It
Took Japan So Long to Learn
....Working with Charles Protzman, an engineer from Western Electric who had been brought in to run the Japanese telephone system, Sarasohn wrote a textbook and prepared a syllabus for what they called the Civil Communication Section Management Seminar. It was a required seminar for senior electronics industry executives, meeting eight hours per day, four days per week for eight weeks. "The course was quality control, management concepts, and philosophy," Sarasohn remembered. "We'd ask them why their companies were in business, and they'd either look at us blankly or say that they were in business to make a profit, which was incorrect. The right answer was that they were in business to achieve some appropriate long-term goal, like taking the technical lead in manufacturing radio equipment. Unless you can come up with a reason, a motto, a clear statement of why you are in business, then you aren't in business. And we taught them that that motto had to be understood at all levels of the company." "The example we held up was Newport News Shipbuilding, whose motto was: 'We will build good ships here—at a profit if we can, at a loss if we must, but always good ships,'" Sarasohn said.
...Practically overnight, the Japanese electronics industry was born again, switching from maximizing production to maximizing yield. Suddenly, they understood in a way that they never had before the significance of Homer Sarasohn's lessons in product quality. It became essential to consider any process not as discrete elements but as a total system, and the way to maximize yields is not to aim for zero defects but for zero variation. If you control the production system and eliminate variation, then you don't even have to look for defects, because their won't be any. That's the only way to increase integrated circuit yields, no matter what country you work in, but it goes far beyond semiconductors to all areas of manufacturing. That's why Canon doesn't inspect its copiers and printers—because the variation is so low that inspection is a waste of time. That's what Homer Sarasohn was preaching in 1948, and what the Japanese electronics industry suddenly came to understand in 1968, when they went from talking about quality to doing something about it, because the alternative was failure. These lessons spread, 30 years after they had first been taught, first through the electronics industry in Japan and then to the automobile industry, which put them to good use.
If Toyotas are reliable, this is why.
http://honoringhomer.net/
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20000525.html
Stranger in a Strange Land How Homer Sarasohn Brought Industrial Quality to Japan and Why It
Took Japan So Long to Learn
....Working with Charles Protzman, an engineer from Western Electric who had been brought in to run the Japanese telephone system, Sarasohn wrote a textbook and prepared a syllabus for what they called the Civil Communication Section Management Seminar. It was a required seminar for senior electronics industry executives, meeting eight hours per day, four days per week for eight weeks. "The course was quality control, management concepts, and philosophy," Sarasohn remembered. "We'd ask them why their companies were in business, and they'd either look at us blankly or say that they were in business to make a profit, which was incorrect. The right answer was that they were in business to achieve some appropriate long-term goal, like taking the technical lead in manufacturing radio equipment. Unless you can come up with a reason, a motto, a clear statement of why you are in business, then you aren't in business. And we taught them that that motto had to be understood at all levels of the company." "The example we held up was Newport News Shipbuilding, whose motto was: 'We will build good ships here—at a profit if we can, at a loss if we must, but always good ships,'" Sarasohn said.
...Practically overnight, the Japanese electronics industry was born again, switching from maximizing production to maximizing yield. Suddenly, they understood in a way that they never had before the significance of Homer Sarasohn's lessons in product quality. It became essential to consider any process not as discrete elements but as a total system, and the way to maximize yields is not to aim for zero defects but for zero variation. If you control the production system and eliminate variation, then you don't even have to look for defects, because their won't be any. That's the only way to increase integrated circuit yields, no matter what country you work in, but it goes far beyond semiconductors to all areas of manufacturing. That's why Canon doesn't inspect its copiers and printers—because the variation is so low that inspection is a waste of time. That's what Homer Sarasohn was preaching in 1948, and what the Japanese electronics industry suddenly came to understand in 1968, when they went from talking about quality to doing something about it, because the alternative was failure. These lessons spread, 30 years after they had first been taught, first through the electronics industry in Japan and then to the automobile industry, which put them to good use.
If Toyotas are reliable, this is why.
Some took that concept a little too far and got zero variation with the same defect in each widget.
This is where my vehicle was built http://www.detnews.com/2004/specialreport/0402/22/a15-70498.htm
Suppose to be the best plant in the world
Suppose to be the best plant in the world
My 99 camry is a piece of crap. It is the second most unrelible vehicle, that I have owned. It has been in the shop 6 times in the last 2 months (for the same problem). It has cost me thousands in repairs. It squeaks and rattles like crazy, whenever you hit any kind of road imperfection. The driver side window motor, makes an awful racket (but still functions fine). The passenger side mirror vibrates so bad that you can't see out of it. The carpet came loose in the rear floorboard. The wood trim on the dash, disintegrated.
If my camry, is the best toyota has to offer, then they are a sorry company.
On the up side..........I had a 2004 camry rental car, while my car was in the shop. There are things that I don't like about it, but overall.......I was quite impressed. It feels much more solid than my 99. It handles better, rides better, and the engine/transmission combo is very impressive for a 4 banger.
If my camry, is the best toyota has to offer, then they are a sorry company.
On the up side..........I had a 2004 camry rental car, while my car was in the shop. There are things that I don't like about it, but overall.......I was quite impressed. It feels much more solid than my 99. It handles better, rides better, and the engine/transmission combo is very impressive for a 4 banger.
SBC350Gearhead, It sounds like you got one of the lemons! Every company makes some lemons and some companys make more then others. I am sorry to hear about your bad experince! Did you buy this 1999 Camry new or used? If new did it start out with problems?
a little
here, but:
I also agree with the build-quality/durability being very good on a lot of japanese cars, including Toyota.
What dissapoints me with japanese cars is that most of them post "impressive" max. hp and torque values, but they're ahardly "usable" in normal daily driving conditions 'cause they come at such high rpm's: I mean, who really drives at 5k-6k rpm constantly?
I'm very happy with my 4.6L sohc modular Ford engine in the 1997 T-bird:
max hp is only 205 HP, BUT you get it at 2,800-3000 rpm, so power is available at very low rpms, so this is very usable in daily "noormal" drving.
Max.Torque: 280 Ft.lb, comes at 3000 rpm: again, very normal rpms, very "usable".
When I compare some of the HP and torque amounts of most "high-performance" japanese cars at these (2500-3000)"usable" rpm conditions, they almost always have LESS HP and torque, although they might have higher MAX hp/torque values which come at unrealistic rpm values which you don't encounter much in "normal" driving...
My point is: Offerings of high HP and Torque amounts should be verified by the questions "at which rpm, though? can I enjoy those numbers during normal drving? or are they just in the book?"
BTW, I know it's not the best, but my 4.6L mod in the T-bird has been very reliable so far: no major repairs except for a DPFE sensor replacement at 75k miles. Now 98k miles and doing pretty good.
[ August 14, 2004, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: 97tbird ]
I also agree with the build-quality/durability being very good on a lot of japanese cars, including Toyota.
What dissapoints me with japanese cars is that most of them post "impressive" max. hp and torque values, but they're ahardly "usable" in normal daily driving conditions 'cause they come at such high rpm's: I mean, who really drives at 5k-6k rpm constantly?
I'm very happy with my 4.6L sohc modular Ford engine in the 1997 T-bird:
max hp is only 205 HP, BUT you get it at 2,800-3000 rpm, so power is available at very low rpms, so this is very usable in daily "noormal" drving.
Max.Torque: 280 Ft.lb, comes at 3000 rpm: again, very normal rpms, very "usable".
When I compare some of the HP and torque amounts of most "high-performance" japanese cars at these (2500-3000)"usable" rpm conditions, they almost always have LESS HP and torque, although they might have higher MAX hp/torque values which come at unrealistic rpm values which you don't encounter much in "normal" driving...
My point is: Offerings of high HP and Torque amounts should be verified by the questions "at which rpm, though? can I enjoy those numbers during normal drving? or are they just in the book?"
BTW, I know it's not the best, but my 4.6L mod in the T-bird has been very reliable so far: no major repairs except for a DPFE sensor replacement at 75k miles. Now 98k miles and doing pretty good.
[ August 14, 2004, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: 97tbird ]
I bought a 1997 Camry 4-Cyl new. Overall, it has been a good car for my family, but I find myself dissapointed by various factors:
1) A/C smells due to poor condensate drain design. Must deodorize regularly!
2) Suspension squeaks - several warranty upgrades and hundreds of personal dollars to quiet it down!
3) It has one of the so-called "Sludge Motors".
4) Starter failed - warranty repair.
5) Blue smoke on start-up. Valve-stem seals shot at 40K miles - warranty repair.
All of the above are well-known problems with the Camry, esp the 4th-Gen (1997-2001), documented by many complaints and Service Bulletins.
Additionally, I have had the head-gasket replaced due to an oil leak, and the oil pan gasket replaced due to another oil leak. At the factory, they chose not to use a true oil pan gasket, but sealant, and the repair was sealant!
This car has been highly maintained for its entire life and has only 66K miles on it now. OCI every 3 months since new, by me. The car has never been raced, abused, or wrecked.
All of these issues have made me suspicious of Toyota. I now consider them to be in the same camp as Chevy (some design flaws, some construction flaws) but more expensive and snotty about it.
1) A/C smells due to poor condensate drain design. Must deodorize regularly!
2) Suspension squeaks - several warranty upgrades and hundreds of personal dollars to quiet it down!
3) It has one of the so-called "Sludge Motors".
4) Starter failed - warranty repair.
5) Blue smoke on start-up. Valve-stem seals shot at 40K miles - warranty repair.
All of the above are well-known problems with the Camry, esp the 4th-Gen (1997-2001), documented by many complaints and Service Bulletins.
Additionally, I have had the head-gasket replaced due to an oil leak, and the oil pan gasket replaced due to another oil leak. At the factory, they chose not to use a true oil pan gasket, but sealant, and the repair was sealant!
This car has been highly maintained for its entire life and has only 66K miles on it now. OCI every 3 months since new, by me. The car has never been raced, abused, or wrecked.
All of these issues have made me suspicious of Toyota. I now consider them to be in the same camp as Chevy (some design flaws, some construction flaws) but more expensive and snotty about it.
As I mentioned above, I have a 1996 Ford Contour with the 2.5L V6 engine. I didn't mention that it's a 5-speed.
Having a manual transmission can tell you a lot about how an engine performs at lower speeds--especially in rush-hour traffic.
So far, I've discovered that I can drive at 25MPH in 5th gear, I can accelerate from a dead stop in 3rd, I can shift at 1500RPM..
According to Ford, this engine makes 75% of peak torque at 1500RPM.
Now that I'm familiar with this car, I can tell when I'm trying to get moving in 3rd as soon as I start to release the clutch. Not being familiar with the car, you might not know.
As far as rush-hour traffic goes..the broad torque curve means that for any given speed, there are 3, even 4, gears that will work well..that means less shifting is required as the speed of traffic changes.
If I'm going to be stuck in rush-hour traffic in a car that has a manual transmission, this is the car I want.
Buster, You are correct that the gap is slowly closeing. Toyota's entire design philosophy revolves around continious improvment in all aspects of their manufactureing process. After WWII they embraced Demmings teachings while the U.S. auto industry laughed at him.
The first thing they do differently is to design with durability in mind. They do not design the car to be disposable! They want the car to be a good used car for the next owner and design with this in mind. This is why it is common place for window regulators, wiper motors, starters, alternators, blower motors,ac compressors, water pumps, cv joints, door lock actuators, clutchs and rotors to still be in great shape long after the origanal owner has traded it in.
Toyota has long tested their parts until they fail. This gives them an opertunity to elvaluate the true life expectency of the car. If you can get a young buyer into a great used car then it is easy to get them into a great new car latter!
Domestic companys have only recently started doing this. Most of them only test to validate the part for the limitations of warranty periods.
The next step is makeing sure that bean counters and marketing do not have more say then the engineering staff. Toyota has made engineering it's corner stone while GM for example has made marketing it's corner stone!
The next step is agreeing to a fair price for the parts as spec.'ed with your suppliers. Toyota does not renegoiat or try to squeze their suppliers for more cost saveings. They agree to a price and then they leave well enough alone! Then Toyota holds them accountable for any lapses in quality. Most domestics are constantly pressureing their suppliers for constant saveings and this leads to alot of redesigns and material changes. These changes are not re-validated before they are put into use in production.
Toyota is a family owned company and while their family name is Toyoda not Toyoyta they take their reputation and the whole family honor idea seriously. They do not want to bring shame to their family by doing dishonorable things!
Toyota's over build quality and durability has droped in the last 10 years in my personel opion. I think that they have tried to reduce costs to much. I also think that they have shifted a bit towards production ease more then in the past.
GM's most recent excuse for their use of cheap interior materials is health care costs associated with all of their active and retired employees. This appeared on their offical intranet site. When they can afford to give upwards of $5000 worth of incentives on a vechile and still make a profit I find it hard to belive that health care costs are the reason for cheap interior materials!
That's my $.02!
The first thing they do differently is to design with durability in mind. They do not design the car to be disposable! They want the car to be a good used car for the next owner and design with this in mind. This is why it is common place for window regulators, wiper motors, starters, alternators, blower motors,ac compressors, water pumps, cv joints, door lock actuators, clutchs and rotors to still be in great shape long after the origanal owner has traded it in.
Toyota has long tested their parts until they fail. This gives them an opertunity to elvaluate the true life expectency of the car. If you can get a young buyer into a great used car then it is easy to get them into a great new car latter!
Domestic companys have only recently started doing this. Most of them only test to validate the part for the limitations of warranty periods.
The next step is makeing sure that bean counters and marketing do not have more say then the engineering staff. Toyota has made engineering it's corner stone while GM for example has made marketing it's corner stone!
The next step is agreeing to a fair price for the parts as spec.'ed with your suppliers. Toyota does not renegoiat or try to squeze their suppliers for more cost saveings. They agree to a price and then they leave well enough alone! Then Toyota holds them accountable for any lapses in quality. Most domestics are constantly pressureing their suppliers for constant saveings and this leads to alot of redesigns and material changes. These changes are not re-validated before they are put into use in production.
Toyota is a family owned company and while their family name is Toyoda not Toyoyta they take their reputation and the whole family honor idea seriously. They do not want to bring shame to their family by doing dishonorable things!
Toyota's over build quality and durability has droped in the last 10 years in my personel opion. I think that they have tried to reduce costs to much. I also think that they have shifted a bit towards production ease more then in the past.
GM's most recent excuse for their use of cheap interior materials is health care costs associated with all of their active and retired employees. This appeared on their offical intranet site. When they can afford to give upwards of $5000 worth of incentives on a vechile and still make a profit I find it hard to belive that health care costs are the reason for cheap interior materials!
That's my $.02!
I use to think Mercedes was all about quality, not anymore. I would not even want to own a Mercedes, poor quality. Toyota is the best, you can see it, feel it and the results of ownership show it.
My main problem with Toyota (own a Camry 92) and now Honda is that the service reps etc and sales people have developed the BMW attitude. Very smug and self righteous, like hey, here's the car, take it or leave it.
My main issue with both, however, is that they are more and more mandating that only their own fluids be used, ATF, coolant etc and that there is nothing available on the aftermarket to be acceptable. As a somewhat do it yourself person I find this aggravating and a reason I refuse to purchase another Toyota or a Honda. The services reps have also just gotten so smug!
My main issue with both, however, is that they are more and more mandating that only their own fluids be used, ATF, coolant etc and that there is nothing available on the aftermarket to be acceptable. As a somewhat do it yourself person I find this aggravating and a reason I refuse to purchase another Toyota or a Honda. The services reps have also just gotten so smug!
I think Honda and BMW are the only 2 carmakers that don't allow their Technical Service Bulletins to be published on Alldata.com, where the general public have access to them (in FULL detail, with diagrams, procediures how to correct them, not edited at all), for about $15 per year.
All others have their TSB's online at Alldata.com
I wonder why...
I think americans blame thier own cars a lot just out of habit, because it's the "in" thing to do. I don't think they're THAT bad; BMW,Honda and Toyota have their own prob's, but their names are so well established, and thier PR is so cunning, the average person is not aware of these...it's so much easier to make fun of Fords.
Everything foreign is not good.
At least until you're deep into 3-digit price range for a new power steering pressure hose for your Lexus..or deep into 4-digit price range for a new catalytic convertor for your Lexus..and that's just the parts costs.
With parts prices like that, you'd better pray that it's more reliable.
1sttruck thanks for those links. Very cool.
You guys make some great points. I really think most cars are so close anymore with the exception of a few from the German makers that seem to have some reliability issues. Chrysler too also ranks pretty low and that kind of concerns me with buying the Ram.
Toyota at this point seems to be in a league of their own. They break too and might not be as good as they used but they still are the best built cars out their in my mind. My Corolla now has 167k miles on it. It's had ZERO problems. My wife's Focus has had several issues and only has 22k miles on it. My car to this day has no rattles or sqeaks. It' still as solid today as it was 3yrs ago. Interior uses much higher quality materials too then the Focus.
You guys make some great points. I really think most cars are so close anymore with the exception of a few from the German makers that seem to have some reliability issues. Chrysler too also ranks pretty low and that kind of concerns me with buying the Ram.
Toyota at this point seems to be in a league of their own. They break too and might not be as good as they used but they still are the best built cars out their in my mind. My Corolla now has 167k miles on it. It's had ZERO problems. My wife's Focus has had several issues and only has 22k miles on it. My car to this day has no rattles or sqeaks. It' still as solid today as it was 3yrs ago. Interior uses much higher quality materials too then the Focus.
I have had more than a few Toyota's in my family over the years and all were good reliable vehicles.
My 1999 Corolla has been trouble free since the day I purchased 5 years ago.No broken parts,no rattles or such,just good solid reliability.
I still have the original AC Delco battery in it which still seems to be fine.
My 1999 Corolla has been trouble free since the day I purchased 5 years ago.No broken parts,no rattles or such,just good solid reliability.
I still have the original AC Delco battery in it which still seems to be fine.
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