The McJob...The New Normal.

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Trying to be non political here with my statement. I don't think it is really import / tariff / union / education / etc that makes our situation what we have today in the US.

Let's be honest here, the US economy has a pretty good run since the end of WWII till 911 because the rest of the world was ruined and we are the only one that has intact infrastructure / military to protect it, as well as the only buyer for a lot of the natural resources (oil, metal, coal) to build and sell to everyone else.

That's a good run, and we should have been grateful for it.

Now that the rest of the world is in peace / cold war and no longer have to spend huge money on defense instead of development, they too get back to stability and prosperity. They can now build things just as well in the case of Japan, South Korea, and Germany, or much better than before for much cheaper in the case of China, Mexico, and Vietnam. So we are not the only buyer and seller in the world anymore.

Then you add the balancing force of automation on top of the already high standard of living in the US, where relatively expensive labors compare to foreign nations are replaced by cheaper per capita automation. You get massive unemployment of low skill non protected works that aren't serving domestic market (non plumbers, non builders). In the next 10 years with additional robotics and automation, we'll see a lot of union jobs at dock and trucking being replaced. If you can build a driverless vehicle that's safe enough for passenger, why wouldn't you build a semi with driverless mode that can follow the first truck on interstate? You can probably cut the driver need down from 1 man per 2 trailers to 1 man per 10 trailers for 50% of the route time. Scary isn't it?

The reason we have fast casual restaurants is because tips are too expensive, and consumers don't want to tip when they can just order from the kiosk with a touch screen or a live person in midwest at home in PJ. How about if someone build a driverless car that can run errants for you to stores and the local amazon warehouse robot will just load the goods into your trunk at midnight? How many more jobs will be gone then?

I am grateful that I'm on the "gain" side of the automation boom, and I'm really worried for the people on the other side. Hope they can make it through, and I won't just call them lazy or make claims that everyone can make it across the transition.
 
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Ultimately, the world is going to have a painful discussion relating to wealth as a commodity versus automation. The population can't keep growing, jobs declining, poverty increasing, without risking a rebellion... Although Jefferson did call for exactly just that.
 
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Not to get off topic:

But at 30 hours you are officially considered full-time under the ACA, some businesses are cutting hours to 29 hours so to avoid giving any benefits.

These people are called the 29'ers as they are permanent part-time employees.

Lots of college kids voted for 'change' and got exactly what they voted for.





Not true. No matter how many times it's repeated, it will never be true.

http://www.factcheck.org/2013/09/obamacare-myths/

No need to apologize for getting off topic, you are keeping with the theme of not saying anything factual so congratulations for that.


Both of my jobs are part time and they dont give anything over 30 hours per week.

I am also having a hard time trusting that site. To me, he seems partial to one side..

Still waiting on a comment regarding my EBT post that you questioned too btw. We cant be picking and choosing.
 
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Originally Posted By: daves87rs
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
They aren't kidding when they call him the food stamp president.


And just how exactly did the President expand the number on people receiving food stamps? I'd love to hear how he did it.
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Someone expanded the number...if not the prez, then who did?



Simple- population growth-more people, number of everything will grow too...


The number of people on food stamps has doubled in recent years...that's not a function of population growth as the population certainly hasn't doubled during the same time frame...
 
Also, in recent years the concentration of wealth has reached new heights of inequity. Life's not fair, yada, yada. But, as the rich get richer, the poor get poorer. It's not all due to immigrants and what you guys term layabouts. I do believe Lester Thurow, to an extent, regarding zero sum gain. Unlimited wealth is not a reality, even with governments printing money. If too much concentrates at the top there is less for everybody else. (i.e. CEO's getting ever more massive bonuses while the rank and file don't even get enough to keep up with inflation)

Is there no one else in my shoes? I have a "good" full time job. It just pays lees than my last one - and I've been here six years, getting regular raises. Last time I went to the grocery store I didn't see prices coming down.

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned revolution. I'm starting to think that it's not 100% far-fetched. We're probably too lazy for that, though.
 
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Also, in recent years the concentration of wealth has reached new heights of inequity. Life's not fair, yada, yada. But, as the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

Most of the "poorness" is due to lack of common sense. Having kids when realistically you can't afford them. Along with it increasing numbers of uneducated immigrants, who also like to raise them on the gonernmment dole. Life is hard and you can't afford bad decisions.
 
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Also, in recent years the concentration of wealth has reached new heights of inequity. Life's not fair, yada, yada. But, as the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

Most of the "poorness" is due to lack of common sense. Having kids when realistically you can't afford them. Along with it increasing numbers of uneducated immigrants, who also like to raise them on the gonernmment dole. Life is hard and you can't afford bad decisions.


The reality is that we have over 300M people and no jobs for them. They may be lucky to have a mcjob, given the combination of offshoring, automation, etc.

Its not just a matter of the illegals or immigrants, though they certainly do compete for this. Its a matter of that there really isnt just endless opportunity out there when everything is finite and WE are enabling three billion people to also compete for many of our jobs and resources. Sure, nobody in china or india will be flipping burgers from thousands of miles, but in many other menial jobs, they will take them away from us.

Everything is finite. Someone will always come out on the bottom. The more the population grows, the worse this will be, just due to sheer numbers.

As we enable the race to the bottom, all that is going to happen is that more and more people will fill the ranks of that lower half.
 
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Also, in recent years the concentration of wealth has reached new heights of inequity. Life's not fair, yada, yada. But, as the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

Most of the "poorness" is due to lack of common sense. Having kids when realistically you can't afford them. Along with it increasing numbers of uneducated immigrants, who also like to raise them on the gonernmment dole. Life is hard and you can't afford bad decisions.

The decline of the decent wage manufacturing job has gutted the white American middle class, which is where the large part of the growing income inequality comes from. John Smith with a 90 IQ and a HS education in the rust belt, used to be able to make a good living, so much so that his wife could stay at home with the 2.5 kids.
For John Smith Jr a good job is harder to find. 4000 manufacturing jobs have left his town of 60,000 in the last 10 years and all he can get with his HS is a min wage call centre job where his wife works too...
 
My boss is looking to hire a field service tech for surgical lasers.....another position for surgical microscopes (Zeiss, Leica, Olympus, Storz) pays around $29-31 an hour depending on experience and we prefer military electronics experience or an associates degree from community college with prior troubleshooting experience. Company car and all calibrated test equipment provided, along with cell phone / iPad,...etc...

For one decent full-time job with great benefit package like this, you have tons of McJobs with zero benefits.
 
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Also, in recent years the concentration of wealth has reached new heights of inequity. Life's not fair, yada, yada. But, as the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

Most of the "poorness" is due to lack of common sense. Having kids when realistically you can't afford them. Along with it increasing numbers of uneducated immigrants, who also like to raise them on the gonernmment dole. Life is hard and you can't afford bad decisions.


Those aren't new problems. If you're American there's an extremely strong chance that your family once fell into the class of "uneducated immigrants." There's a similarly good chance that your family of uneducated immigrants were treated the same as we treat immigrants now; poorly, disrespectfully, with suspicion.
 
The only thing that I really keep seeing as a recurring theme in these kinds of threads - and there have been many - is the same old scapegoat naming. "Oh, if it weren't for the illegals." or, "If stupid people wouldn't have so many kids." or, "If people would be willing to work instead of taking handouts." All of these are issues, but they are not ALL the issues. There have been good points made about population growth, erosion of jobs for those without college degrees, etc. Heck, even those of us with degrees are finding that the grass hasn't been so green lately.

And, yes, we, or our ancestors were all immigrants at one time and most were part of groups that were despised by those that came before them. The original ones even took what they wanted by force from the indigenous population.

The only thing accomplished by trying to over simplify the issue is perpetuation of the same inertia that will prevent us from doing anything about it except complaining. Most aren't willing to make even the smallest sacrifice if called upon to do so. So, the result is that we will all sacrifice unwillingly, as we are doing right now. I still feel very fortunate to have been born here instead of most other places in the world. But, does that mean that I should just complain about how everybody else but me is screwing up my great country? I must be contributing to screwing it up, too. I'm here and using resources, aren't I?
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Also, in recent years the concentration of wealth has reached new heights of inequity. Life's not fair, yada, yada. But, as the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

Most of the "poorness" is due to lack of common sense. Having kids when realistically you can't afford them. Along with it increasing numbers of uneducated immigrants, who also like to raise them on the gonernmment dole. Life is hard and you can't afford bad decisions.

The decline of the decent wage manufacturing job has gutted the white American middle class, which is where the large part of the growing income inequality comes from. John Smith with a 90 IQ and a HS education in the rust belt, used to be able to make a good living, so much so that his wife could stay at home with the 2.5 kids.
For John Smith Jr a good job is harder to find. 4000 manufacturing jobs have left his town of 60,000 in the last 10 years and all he can get with his HS is a min wage call centre job where his wife works too...


You just nailed it
frown.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Mykl

Those aren't new problems. If you're American there's an extremely strong chance that your family once fell into the class of "uneducated immigrants." There's a similarly good chance that your family of uneducated immigrants were treated the same as we treat immigrants now; poorly, disrespectfully, with suspicion.

It is a neweer problem because the paradigm has changed. The poorly educated class can not do the jobs that are demanded in the world market.
 
There are still plenty of jobs for the uneducated, which, I guess, must be what they consider a high school diploma these days. (I do not agree with that, by the way.) The jobs are more plentiful than ever. They just don't offer a great compensation package.
 
April 15th there will be a nation wide strike of fast food, retail and lower paid service type employees demanding $15 an hour and to be part of a union.

'Fight for $15' will be organizing these protests.
 
You can add in that we have fewer and fewer farmers.

Those who didn't go to work in the factories worked on the farm or in the agriculture sector.

It's not just manufacturing that needs fewer workers, it's agriculture as well.

People left the farms for industrial jobs. Farming adapted to require fewer workers.

Manufacturing has done the same OR offshored many of the jobs.

No farm jobs for people to return.

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Also, in recent years the concentration of wealth has reached new heights of inequity. Life's not fair, yada, yada. But, as the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

Most of the "poorness" is due to lack of common sense. Having kids when realistically you can't afford them. Along with it increasing numbers of uneducated immigrants, who also like to raise them on the gonernmment dole. Life is hard and you can't afford bad decisions.

The decline of the decent wage manufacturing job has gutted the white American middle class, which is where the large part of the growing income inequality comes from. John Smith with a 90 IQ and a HS education in the rust belt, used to be able to make a good living, so much so that his wife could stay at home with the 2.5 kids.
For John Smith Jr a good job is harder to find. 4000 manufacturing jobs have left his town of 60,000 in the last 10 years and all he can get with his HS is a min wage call centre job where his wife works too...


You just nailed it
frown.gif
 
One other thing I've thought of. Baby boomers are not retiring as fast as is expected. They are holding on to their jobs.

If they hold on to their jobs, in a job market where new job creation is not robust, this is a problem for unskilled and/or inexperienced workers.
 
Awesome. We've all identified problems. Every company I've had the "pleasure" of working for has said, "Don't identify problems unless you can offer solutions." Well, that's male cow excrement. Not everyone is a problem solver. Some are problem identifiers or definers.

But, taking the ra-ra corporate approach, who here can offer solutions? Of course, keep in mind that the solutions cannot involved penalizing any group, causing anyone to make sacrifices, or involve major changes in our way of life.

I hope you can think through this and understand why, no matter how hard our elected officials try, they will always fall short of our unreasonable expectations.
 
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