They may mean 3 times the area is exposed to the oil flow. If the larger media is akin to simple perforated sheet, and the other a thicker defense in depth type thing, perhaps possible. Things in the former will either hit sheet and stop or flow thru on out of can. In the second perhaps particles can go under surface of media but not pass out the other side, perhaps 3x thicker but likely more to achieve this. Media can/could have charge to help stick filtrate, but oil is fair/good insulator so maybe not possible.
Synthetic FIltering Media/Total Surface Area?
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Originally Posted By: wileyE
they count the area between the pleats? I don't know? who's making the claim, consider the source?
I use a 3593a on my hyundai cause it fits and is bigger than stock, guess I'm good for 50k, LOL
Amsoil is making the 25,000 mile claim and their total surface area of their filtering media is almost 3 times less than the OEM. I know you must use their engine oil to go that drain interval, but the stock filter seems to be superior in regards to total holding contaminant due to the increased thickness and surface area of the filtering media.
The OEM filter is better than the 3593A in my opinion.
they count the area between the pleats? I don't know? who's making the claim, consider the source?
I use a 3593a on my hyundai cause it fits and is bigger than stock, guess I'm good for 50k, LOL
Amsoil is making the 25,000 mile claim and their total surface area of their filtering media is almost 3 times less than the OEM. I know you must use their engine oil to go that drain interval, but the stock filter seems to be superior in regards to total holding contaminant due to the increased thickness and surface area of the filtering media.
The OEM filter is better than the 3593A in my opinion.
Originally Posted By: Newtonville
The term mil is commonly used as .001" in labs, shops, industry, etc. A micron is .001 millimeter.
It is sensitive to measure accurately ,0001" even on a hard sample, with a quality mike. Filter media is soft and variable. .001" has no meaning in this case.
The amsoil filter element spread out next to the hyundai is supposed to be about 1/3 the size. That should be verified.
In every US shop and US automaker I have worked with used thousandths of an inch. In every Euro and Asian auto shop book that I have ever used they use millimeters and not microns for measurement, except possibly with crank grinding and the saddle bore end of connecting rods, but again I have not seen it. However, it is not worth arguing over.
Originally Posted By: Newtonville
It is sensitive to measure accurately ,0001" even on a hard sample, with a quality mike. Filter media is soft and variable. .001" has no meaning in this case.
When you research filtering media, you will see that the filtering media is very accurate in thickness when manufactured to a given tolerance. The manufactures describe the thickness of their filtering media as 1/64th of an inch or in thousandths of an inch. You can measure all sorts of things accurately with a mic. I and many machinists know that a human hair and a piece of computer paper are around 0.003 of an inch. So if you need to machine a part to 0.001 then you move the cutter up against the part and one it grabs the paper or your hair you are around 0.003 away, you then zero and proceed. Again, it is not worth my time arguing over.
Originally Posted By: Newtonville
The amsoil filter element spread out next to the hyundai is supposed to be about 1/3 the size. That should be verified.
That has been verified. Which leaves me with the question how can their oil filer hold more contaminant and last 25,000 miles with almost 3 times less filtering media. Amsoil gave the following answers:
As for your main question, there are some variables that need to be considered such as:
· The Loft/Thickness of the media that is used.
· Engineering of the filter, Example, AMSOIL only recommends 25,000 mile oil and oil filter intervals when using the filter in conjunction with AMSOIL synthetic lubricants.
· The Quality of Air filter that is being used, along with how often the air filter is being changed. You may or may not be aware, but the air filter is in fact the most important filter in your vehicle.
Along with these variables, AMSOIL has also conducted independent studies that have show the Ea oil filters to be working properly beyond 25,000 miles with AMSOIL lubricants.
Regards,
Bryan Kershaw
AMSOIL Product Specialist
Filtration/Aftermarket
I had more follow up questions that have yet to be answered.
The term mil is commonly used as .001" in labs, shops, industry, etc. A micron is .001 millimeter.
It is sensitive to measure accurately ,0001" even on a hard sample, with a quality mike. Filter media is soft and variable. .001" has no meaning in this case.
The amsoil filter element spread out next to the hyundai is supposed to be about 1/3 the size. That should be verified.
In every US shop and US automaker I have worked with used thousandths of an inch. In every Euro and Asian auto shop book that I have ever used they use millimeters and not microns for measurement, except possibly with crank grinding and the saddle bore end of connecting rods, but again I have not seen it. However, it is not worth arguing over.
Originally Posted By: Newtonville
It is sensitive to measure accurately ,0001" even on a hard sample, with a quality mike. Filter media is soft and variable. .001" has no meaning in this case.
When you research filtering media, you will see that the filtering media is very accurate in thickness when manufactured to a given tolerance. The manufactures describe the thickness of their filtering media as 1/64th of an inch or in thousandths of an inch. You can measure all sorts of things accurately with a mic. I and many machinists know that a human hair and a piece of computer paper are around 0.003 of an inch. So if you need to machine a part to 0.001 then you move the cutter up against the part and one it grabs the paper or your hair you are around 0.003 away, you then zero and proceed. Again, it is not worth my time arguing over.
Originally Posted By: Newtonville
The amsoil filter element spread out next to the hyundai is supposed to be about 1/3 the size. That should be verified.
That has been verified. Which leaves me with the question how can their oil filer hold more contaminant and last 25,000 miles with almost 3 times less filtering media. Amsoil gave the following answers:
As for your main question, there are some variables that need to be considered such as:
· The Loft/Thickness of the media that is used.
· Engineering of the filter, Example, AMSOIL only recommends 25,000 mile oil and oil filter intervals when using the filter in conjunction with AMSOIL synthetic lubricants.
· The Quality of Air filter that is being used, along with how often the air filter is being changed. You may or may not be aware, but the air filter is in fact the most important filter in your vehicle.
Along with these variables, AMSOIL has also conducted independent studies that have show the Ea oil filters to be working properly beyond 25,000 miles with AMSOIL lubricants.
Regards,
Bryan Kershaw
AMSOIL Product Specialist
Filtration/Aftermarket
I had more follow up questions that have yet to be answered.
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Originally Posted By: wileyE
Is filter media rated before or after it's folded into pleats? The bends could really change it's rating. Making some pores wider and some tighter, elongating others.
Also don't they rate after a certain amount of passes of the fluid? not just single pass.
The filtering media is removed and laid flat under clear glass to record the measurements. Variations in number of pleats and folds is not relevant.
That is in regards to micron efficiency and not holding capacity, but yes what you stated is true. Holding capacity is the only question I have.
Is filter media rated before or after it's folded into pleats? The bends could really change it's rating. Making some pores wider and some tighter, elongating others.
Also don't they rate after a certain amount of passes of the fluid? not just single pass.
The filtering media is removed and laid flat under clear glass to record the measurements. Variations in number of pleats and folds is not relevant.
That is in regards to micron efficiency and not holding capacity, but yes what you stated is true. Holding capacity is the only question I have.
Originally Posted By: jldcol
They may mean 3 times the area is exposed to the oil flow. If the larger media is akin to simple perforated sheet, and the other a thicker defense in depth type thing, perhaps possible. Things in the former will either hit sheet and stop or flow thru on out of can. In the second perhaps particles can go under surface of media but not pass out the other side, perhaps 3x thicker but likely more to achieve this. Media can/could have charge to help stick filtrate, but oil is fair/good insulator so maybe not possible.
Thanks, but the Amsoil media is thinner.
They may mean 3 times the area is exposed to the oil flow. If the larger media is akin to simple perforated sheet, and the other a thicker defense in depth type thing, perhaps possible. Things in the former will either hit sheet and stop or flow thru on out of can. In the second perhaps particles can go under surface of media but not pass out the other side, perhaps 3x thicker but likely more to achieve this. Media can/could have charge to help stick filtrate, but oil is fair/good insulator so maybe not possible.
Thanks, but the Amsoil media is thinner.
Johnny...one last thing to consider but not related to holding capacity.
100% Synthetic media has lots of glass in it. This creates a problem at the folds, it's called bend radius of the media.
I believe true synth media automotive filters have the mesh screen in them to prevent flexing and breech of the media. Without the mesh a worst case breech could possibly be catastrophic.
There still is a question (in my mind) of small failures at the bends even with the mesh. This is hard to quantify but I suspect the risk is real.
100% Synthetic media has lots of glass in it. This creates a problem at the folds, it's called bend radius of the media.
I believe true synth media automotive filters have the mesh screen in them to prevent flexing and breech of the media. Without the mesh a worst case breech could possibly be catastrophic.
There still is a question (in my mind) of small failures at the bends even with the mesh. This is hard to quantify but I suspect the risk is real.
^^ Thanks for the added information, as I did not think of that. I will need to do some more research on that subject.
Cheers
Cheers
In every US shop and US automaker I have worked with used thousandths of an inch.
Originally Posted By: Newtonville
It is sensitive to measure accurately ,0001" even on a hard sample, with a quality mike. Filter media is soft and variable. .001" has no meaning in this case.
Screwed up the first time.
Originally Posted By: Newtonville
It is sensitive to measure accurately ,0001" even on a hard sample, with a quality mike. Filter media is soft and variable. .001" has no meaning in this case.
Screwed up the first time.
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wow this is pretty interesting read. makes me wonder about using the high dollar filters.
johnny- you didn't by chance get to test the new royal purple oil filters being sold at pep boys? they are made by champion labs (mobil 1 and k&n's manufacturer) but are claimed to be 100% synthetic versus the m1 and k&n blend.
johnny- you didn't by chance get to test the new royal purple oil filters being sold at pep boys? they are made by champion labs (mobil 1 and k&n's manufacturer) but are claimed to be 100% synthetic versus the m1 and k&n blend.
Originally Posted By: buickmaster
wow this is pretty interesting read. makes me wonder about using the high dollar filters.
johnny- you didn't by chance get to test the new royal purple oil filters being sold at pep boys? they are made by champion labs (mobil 1 and k&n's manufacturer) but are claimed to be 100% synthetic versus the m1 and k&n blend.
The Royal Purple filters are 100% synthetic media.
wow this is pretty interesting read. makes me wonder about using the high dollar filters.
johnny- you didn't by chance get to test the new royal purple oil filters being sold at pep boys? they are made by champion labs (mobil 1 and k&n's manufacturer) but are claimed to be 100% synthetic versus the m1 and k&n blend.
The Royal Purple filters are 100% synthetic media.
No I did not, but I should. Let me think about it.
I received this form the RP REP:
Here is the filtering data per Champ Labs testing to ASTM test protocol on the new Royal Purple Oil Filters available through Pep Boys.
5µ = 60%
10µ = 88%
20µ = 99.5%
Dirt holding capacity will be about 18 grams. This data was generated using ISO 4548-12 test procedure.
This is outstanding performance for a full flow oil filter. The small fiber diameter full synthetic media provides these numbers with a pressure drop less than conventional cellulosic filter constructions. I do not have the static burst pressure but hopefully the tech lines at Champ Labs can fill that in. phone - 800.882.0890Fax [email protected]
Sincerely, DavidTech Services Royal Purple IncDavid Canitz1 Royal Purple LanePorter, TX 77365281.354.8600281.354.7600 fax713.725,7207 [email protected]
The Micron filtering is basically the same as a Pure One, but is only half as good at 5 microns. The filter is almost 3 times more in cost for double the filtering capacity at 5 microns. Holding capacity is 1g less for the RP, but I do not know the correlation between the oil filter sizes that each company tested.
Cheers
Here is the filtering data per Champ Labs testing to ASTM test protocol on the new Royal Purple Oil Filters available through Pep Boys.
5µ = 60%
10µ = 88%
20µ = 99.5%
Dirt holding capacity will be about 18 grams. This data was generated using ISO 4548-12 test procedure.
This is outstanding performance for a full flow oil filter. The small fiber diameter full synthetic media provides these numbers with a pressure drop less than conventional cellulosic filter constructions. I do not have the static burst pressure but hopefully the tech lines at Champ Labs can fill that in. phone - 800.882.0890Fax [email protected]
Sincerely, DavidTech Services Royal Purple IncDavid Canitz1 Royal Purple LanePorter, TX 77365281.354.8600281.354.7600 fax713.725,7207 [email protected]
The Micron filtering is basically the same as a Pure One, but is only half as good at 5 microns. The filter is almost 3 times more in cost for double the filtering capacity at 5 microns. Holding capacity is 1g less for the RP, but I do not know the correlation between the oil filter sizes that each company tested.
Cheers
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No standard 5 oil hole inlet on the Champ filer? Weird.
Hey guys, are we saying that the Royal Purple Oil Filter is better than the Amsoil EaO Oil Filter.
Amsoil EaO Oil Filter Royal Purple Oil Filter
98.7% @ 15 microns 99.5% @ 20 microns
65% @ 10 microns 88% @ 10 microns
50% @ 7 microns 60% @ 5 microns
It seems that 10 microns and under that the Royal Purple Oil Filter catches more particles.
Amsoil EaO Oil Filter Royal Purple Oil Filter
98.7% @ 15 microns 99.5% @ 20 microns
65% @ 10 microns 88% @ 10 microns
50% @ 7 microns 60% @ 5 microns
It seems that 10 microns and under that the Royal Purple Oil Filter catches more particles.
Last edited:
Here is the filtering data per Champ Labs testing to ASTM test protocol on the new Royal Purple Oil Filters available through Pep Boys.
5µ = 60%
10µ = 88%
20µ = 99.5%
Dirt holding capacity will be about 18 grams. This data was generated using ISO 4548-12 test procedure.
This is outstanding performance for a full flow oil filter. The small fiber diameter full synthetic media provides these numbers with a pressure drop less than conventional cellulosic filter constructions. I do not have the static burst pressure but hopefully the tech lines at Champ Labs can fill that in. phone - 800.882.0890Fax [email protected]
Sincerely, DavidTech Services Royal Purple IncDavid Canitz1 Royal Purple LanePorter, TX 77365281.354.8600281.354.7600 fax713.725,7207 [email protected]
The Micron filtering is basically the same as a Pure One, but is only half as good at 5 microns. The filter is almost 3 times more in cost for double the filtering capacity at 5 microns. Holding capacity is 1g less for the RP, but I do not know the correlation between the oil filter sizes that each company tested.
Cheers [/quote]
All PureOne boxes I have seen say they hold 13 grams and that was based on a test of a bigger filter(PL30001) so I do not see how 18 grams holding capacity for the RP is 1g less then 13g holding capacity for a PureOne.
5µ = 60%
10µ = 88%
20µ = 99.5%
Dirt holding capacity will be about 18 grams. This data was generated using ISO 4548-12 test procedure.
This is outstanding performance for a full flow oil filter. The small fiber diameter full synthetic media provides these numbers with a pressure drop less than conventional cellulosic filter constructions. I do not have the static burst pressure but hopefully the tech lines at Champ Labs can fill that in. phone - 800.882.0890Fax [email protected]
Sincerely, DavidTech Services Royal Purple IncDavid Canitz1 Royal Purple LanePorter, TX 77365281.354.8600281.354.7600 fax713.725,7207 [email protected]
The Micron filtering is basically the same as a Pure One, but is only half as good at 5 microns. The filter is almost 3 times more in cost for double the filtering capacity at 5 microns. Holding capacity is 1g less for the RP, but I do not know the correlation between the oil filter sizes that each company tested.
Cheers [/quote]
All PureOne boxes I have seen say they hold 13 grams and that was based on a test of a bigger filter(PL30001) so I do not see how 18 grams holding capacity for the RP is 1g less then 13g holding capacity for a PureOne.
Is this right, the Royal Purple oil filter is 60% efficient at 5 microns while the Amsoil EaO Oil Filter is 50% efficient at 7 microns.
From what I am reading the Royal Purple Oil Filter is a little more efficient than the Amsoil EaO Oil Filter.
From what I am reading the Royal Purple Oil Filter is a little more efficient than the Amsoil EaO Oil Filter.
Originally Posted By: c3po
Amsoil EaO Oil Filter Royal Purple Oil Filter
98.7% @ 15 microns 99.5% @ 20 microns
65% @ 10 microns 88% @ 10 microns
50% @ 7 microns 60% @ 5 microns
RP results are impressive but also consider test variability. These are likely mean (avg.) and you need to look at standard deviation (sigma)also. In production there will be unit-to-unit variation and lot-to-lot.
It would be best to run the same test, on the same machine, with same test dust, filters side by side with samples from from several manufacturing lots.
Johnny do you have the PureONE and M1 betas handy ?
Amsoil EaO Oil Filter Royal Purple Oil Filter
98.7% @ 15 microns 99.5% @ 20 microns
65% @ 10 microns 88% @ 10 microns
50% @ 7 microns 60% @ 5 microns
RP results are impressive but also consider test variability. These are likely mean (avg.) and you need to look at standard deviation (sigma)also. In production there will be unit-to-unit variation and lot-to-lot.
It would be best to run the same test, on the same machine, with same test dust, filters side by side with samples from from several manufacturing lots.
Johnny do you have the PureONE and M1 betas handy ?
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Originally Posted By: postjeeprcr
All PureOne boxes I have seen say they hold 13 grams and that was based on a test of a bigger filter(PL30001) so I do not see how 18 grams holding capacity for the RP is 1g less then 13g holding capacity for a PureOne.
Good eye, 13g for Pure One 18g for RP, but just from the looks of the picture, I would guess that the Royal Purple has less total filtering media surface area than the Pure One. The depth of the pleats on the RP does not look like much in the picture.
All PureOne boxes I have seen say they hold 13 grams and that was based on a test of a bigger filter(PL30001) so I do not see how 18 grams holding capacity for the RP is 1g less then 13g holding capacity for a PureOne.
Good eye, 13g for Pure One 18g for RP, but just from the looks of the picture, I would guess that the Royal Purple has less total filtering media surface area than the Pure One. The depth of the pleats on the RP does not look like much in the picture.
Originally Posted By: glenncof
Originally Posted By: c3po
Amsoil EaO Oil Filter Royal Purple Oil Filter
98.7% @ 15 microns 99.5% @ 20 microns
65% @ 10 microns 88% @ 10 microns
50% @ 7 microns 60% @ 5 microns
RP results are impressive but also consider test variability. These are likely mean (avg.) and you need to look at standard deviation (sigma)also. In production there will be unit-to-unit variation and lot-to-lot.
It would be best to run the same test, on the same machine, with same test dust, filters side by side with samples from from several manufacturing lots.
Johnny do you have the PureONE and M1 betas handy ?
M1 and K&N information is Proprietary, the engineer at Purolator is from India and the information he told me did not make sense, so no I do not have either. He also stated the burst pressure was the same for the Pure One, Purolator Preimum Plus, ProLine and Bosch were all the same, but the case thickness is 0.001-0.002 difference in thickness. He stated the Pure One and Bosch are the same, but the filtering media thickness is different, number of pleats and total surface area.
Originally Posted By: c3po
Amsoil EaO Oil Filter Royal Purple Oil Filter
98.7% @ 15 microns 99.5% @ 20 microns
65% @ 10 microns 88% @ 10 microns
50% @ 7 microns 60% @ 5 microns
RP results are impressive but also consider test variability. These are likely mean (avg.) and you need to look at standard deviation (sigma)also. In production there will be unit-to-unit variation and lot-to-lot.
It would be best to run the same test, on the same machine, with same test dust, filters side by side with samples from from several manufacturing lots.
Johnny do you have the PureONE and M1 betas handy ?
M1 and K&N information is Proprietary, the engineer at Purolator is from India and the information he told me did not make sense, so no I do not have either. He also stated the burst pressure was the same for the Pure One, Purolator Preimum Plus, ProLine and Bosch were all the same, but the case thickness is 0.001-0.002 difference in thickness. He stated the Pure One and Bosch are the same, but the filtering media thickness is different, number of pleats and total surface area.
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