Switching to M1 0w40

[OVERKILL]

No. Just showing the old filter for context. Only thing I care about is the appearance and potential gooey/chunky contents of the new filter - not that I think I'm going to get goo or chunks.

EDIT - and also, were my engine particularly dirty, I'd expect the oil and filter to be darker by now. No seeing that. Will look again in ~1000 miles.

OK, because I don't think you can draw any sort of conclusion about cleaning from a filter with less than 1,000 miles on it, when contrasted to one with 12,000 miles on it.

 

[buster]

Quality oils are really good at “keeping clean” as long as intervals are reasonable. Actual “cleaning” is another thing entirely.

Exactly. I think this is confusing to some. If you're using a premium oil, especially one with esters, your engine will stay cleaner even over longer OCIs. The breaking down of piston deposits is no small feat. I'm not even 100% sure an oil with AN/POE can do that. If you read about group V base oils, including ANs, you most often see the claims that they "run clean", not clean. Esters leave little behind. Most of the typical cleaning is done via the detergent/dispersants, but that doesn't include piston deposits. I'd like to know if AN/esters can actually remove existing piston deposits.

 

[OVERKILL]

If you read about group V base oils, including ANs, you most often see the claims that they "run clean", not clean. Esters leave little behind. Most of the typical cleaning is done via the detergent/dispersants, but that doesn't include piston deposits. I'd like to know if AN/esters can actually remove existing piston deposits.

That's backwards. Esters and AN's both have high solvency, which is necessary to break-up existing deposits. Esters are also highly polar, which means they fight for surface space, so they can make additives fighting for that same space less effective. AN's don't have that problem. Detergents and dispersants are both designed to PREVENT deposits by keeping deposit-forming materials in suspension and preventing them from agglomerating, which can enable them to get large and heavy enough to plate-out. They do not clean up existing deposits, because they have no inherent solvency.

This is why products like HPL EC and the old AutoRX are both ester-based formulas and not just a metric assload of calcium or magnesium detergent.

A dedicated solvent will of course also do the job, and much faster, but they present their own challenges in terms of handling and delivery.

 

[mr_boring]

OK, because I don't think you can draw any sort of conclusion about cleaning from a filter with less than 1,000 miles on it, when contrasted to one with 12,000 miles on it.

Understood. I'm not really comparing the filters. The old one is simply there to show what it looked like at 12k. I will draw my conclusions as miles add up and I look at the new filter. Again, I expect that in the end of it all, I'll see very little difference. Maybe I'll be wrong and the pricier, more highly touted oil will end up darker (with suspended particulates etc) and contain deposits that I do not expect to see.

If I'm doing something wrong, please explain. I'm not unable nor unwilling to learn.

 

[OVERKILL]

Understood. I'm not really comparing the filters. The old one is simply there to show what it looked like at 12k. I will draw my conclusions as miles add up and I look at the new filter. Again, I expect that in the end of it all, I'll see very little difference. Maybe I'll be wrong and the pricier, more highly touted oil will end up darker (with suspended particulates etc) and contain deposits that I do not expect to see.

If I'm doing something wrong, please explain. I'm not unable nor unwilling to learn.

Not doing anything wrong, I'd just reserve any sort of judgement until we've got the same miles on the filter.

 

[buster]

That's backwards. Esters and AN's both have high solvency, which is necessary to break-up existing deposits. Esters are also highly polar, which means they fight for surface space, so they can make additives fighting for that same space less effective. AN's don't have that problem. Detergents and dispersants are both designed to PREVENT deposits by keeping deposit-forming materials in suspension and preventing them from agglomerating, which can enable them to get large and heavy enough to plate-out. They do not clean up existing deposits, because they have no inherent solvency.

This is why products like HPL EC and the old AutoRX are both ester-based formulas and not just a metric assload of calcium or magnesium detergent.

A dedicated solvent will of course also do the job, and much faster, but they present their own challenges in terms of handling and delivery.

Right, I was referring to sludge removal from high detergent oils. Deposits can't be removed by detergents. Esters/ANs have good solvency. I was unsure if they could actually remove carbon deposits, but it appears ANs can. Often the wording states how esters "run clean" and leave little behind therefore you end up with a cleaner engine. I know some esters can't but are assumed to.

LUBRICANT FOR PREVENTING AND REMOVING CARBON DEPOSITS IN INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES - VALVOLINE LICENSING AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, LLC

<div p-id="p-0001">A lubricant formulation which is effective to remove or prevent carbon deposits in internal combustion engines has a solvency as defined by aniline point from about 20 to about 115,

www.freepatentsonline.com

I just found this:

Alkylated Naphthalenes for High Temperature Applications - Issuu

Maureen E. Hunter, Ph.D. King Industries, Inc., Norwalk, CT, USA [email protected]

issuu.com

https://www.kingindustries.com/assets/1/6/CMF2017.pdf

Then there is this (for turbines though)

 

[OVERKILL]

Right, I was referring to sludge removal from high detergent oils. Deposits can't be removed by detergents. Esters/ANs have good solvency. I was unsure if they could actually remove carbon deposits, but it appears ANs can. Of the wording states how esters run clean and leave little behind therefore you end up with a cleaner engine. I know some esters can't but are assumed to.

LUBRICANT FOR PREVENTING AND REMOVING CARBON DEPOSITS IN INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES - VALVOLINE LICENSING AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, LLC

<div p-id="p-0001">A lubricant formulation which is effective to remove or prevent carbon deposits in internal combustion engines has a solvency as defined by aniline point from about 20 to about 115,

www.freepatentsonline.com

I just found this:

Alkylated Naphthalenes for High Temperature Applications - Issuu

Maureen E. Hunter, Ph.D. King Industries, Inc., Norwalk, CT, USA [email protected]

issuu.com

https://www.kingindustries.com/assets/1/6/CMF2017.pdf

View attachment 194968

Then there is this (for turbines though)
View attachment 194970

From this presentation I shared in the Lesli R. Rudnick thread:
PowerPoint Presentation (stle.org)

Earlier in the presentation, you'll read and see how AN's added to an ester base reduced volatility and degradation, improving performance.

And yes, the cleaning ability of different esters varies wildly. @High Performance Lubricants, @MolaKule and @Tom NJ have all gotten into that discussion IIRC.

 

[svenson]

so , which oils have that content of esters/AN's?

 

[OVERKILL]

so , which oils have that content of esters/AN's?

The @High Performance Lubricants ones.

 

[buster]

This is from the patent for Valvoline Premium Restore. You can see they specifically state that Group V does clean as we all assumed. It would be interesting to know the aniline point for some of these oils.

SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION The present invention is premised on the realization that a lubricant formulation can act to prevent and/or remove carbon buildup in an internal combustion engine. In particular, a lubricant formulation formed from a blend of base oils with a defined solvency of the base oil, a volatility below a defined threshold (15% as measured by NOACK), a minimum oxidative stability (above 40 minutes as measured by PDSC) and a base oil viscosity of from about 2 to about 10 cSt can effectively prevent the carbon buildup and remove carbon buildup. The solvency can be measured by various methods, such as, for example, aniline point. Lubricant formulations with a base oil blend having an aniline point of 20-115 and preferably 60, should adequately remove carbon buildup in engines and still exhibit elastomer compatibility. The base oil formulation is formed by blending Group III and/or Group IV lubricants with higher solvency base oil from Group V in relative amounts to establish the effective solvency, volatility, oxidative stability and base oil viscosity, while remaining compatible with elastomers, providing acceptable corrosion prevention and cleaning of the engine without excessive oil consumption.”

 

[svenson]

The @High Performance Lubricants ones.

i knew you were going to say that.

delivery from a Finland online shop. HPL synthetic 5-30 Euro:
normal price 19.95 euros/lt -17,95 euros bargain price x 5 lt i need =89,95 just for the product + 26,15 euros delivery costs= total 115,90 euros for 5 lt.
23,18 per lt!!!

in the description says PAO/esters containing. does it contain AN's ? is this chemical to be mention somewhere or we just know that from a testimony from an expert or something?

 

[OVERKILL]

i knew you were going to say that.

delivery from a Finland online shop. HPL synthetic 5-30 Euro:
normal price 19.95 euros/lt -17,95 euros bargain price x 5 lt i need =89,95 just for the product + 26,15 euros delivery costs= total 115,90 euros for 5 lt.
23,18 per lt!!!

in the description says PAO/esters containing. does it contain AN's ? is this chemical to be mention somewhere or we just know that from a testimony from an expert or something?

From the owner:

The AN/ester combination in the PCMO oil would stand a chance to get it done. When there is this much stuff it is simply doing to take time. I would run the oil and change filters every 1000 miles and cut them apart to make a good decision on the correct frequency and to see what is coming out.

 

[svenson]

that would be interesting! i might give it a go. after all its like doing an OCI in dealership costs, but with a superior oil!
on second thought its cheaper than that!