Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass
- Thread starter LoneRanger
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Originally Posted By: rcy
I sent an inquiry a few days ago regarding the Wix recommended filter not meeting the 23psi bypass the manufacturer wants. I asked them to recommend a Wix filter that would work.
Being in Canada, it looks like my question was redirected to "Affinia Group, Wix Division" I responded to the email by sending a link to this thread, and mentioning that the 23psi spec is from factory service manuals. At some point I'll get the Subaru part number for them as well, though really, that should be their job.
_______________________________
Here was the answer
Unfortunatly we are not aware of a 23 psi setting on the valve for that filter and we have a not had any problems or complaints about some one having an H6 and using this filter.
do you happen to have the oe part number so that we can check the valve settings and then we can go from there to find out if it could be a problem.
Thanks
*name edited*
AFFINIA Group Canada, WIX Division
(519) 622-4545 *277
*email edited*
See bold red text in your quote - my responses below.
My God! ... if you sent the link to this thread they are going to go completely insane trying to decyper it all!!
Also, saying that they "have not had any problems or complaints" doesn't mean much. As basically concluded in all this back and forth discussion here, if a filter with a much lower bypass setting than 23 psi is used, there is the possibility of a lot more bypass going on in the filter than if a filter with the 23 psi bypass was used. Will it cause the motor to blow up? I doubt it ... but IMO I'd RATHER have a filter that runs the oil through the filter element as much as possible, and not through the bypass.
Although, the one input in this thread about the turbo line screen getting debris on it kind of eluded that it could have been possibly caused by filter bypass allowing crud to get past the filter and into the engine's oiling system. Something to definitely consider as a possibility if the bypass valve is too weak for this Subaru application.
I sent an inquiry a few days ago regarding the Wix recommended filter not meeting the 23psi bypass the manufacturer wants. I asked them to recommend a Wix filter that would work.
Being in Canada, it looks like my question was redirected to "Affinia Group, Wix Division" I responded to the email by sending a link to this thread, and mentioning that the 23psi spec is from factory service manuals. At some point I'll get the Subaru part number for them as well, though really, that should be their job.
_______________________________
Here was the answer
Unfortunatly we are not aware of a 23 psi setting on the valve for that filter and we have a not had any problems or complaints about some one having an H6 and using this filter.
do you happen to have the oe part number so that we can check the valve settings and then we can go from there to find out if it could be a problem.
Thanks
*name edited*
AFFINIA Group Canada, WIX Division
(519) 622-4545 *277
*email edited*
See bold red text in your quote - my responses below.
My God! ... if you sent the link to this thread they are going to go completely insane trying to decyper it all!!
Also, saying that they "have not had any problems or complaints" doesn't mean much. As basically concluded in all this back and forth discussion here, if a filter with a much lower bypass setting than 23 psi is used, there is the possibility of a lot more bypass going on in the filter than if a filter with the 23 psi bypass was used. Will it cause the motor to blow up? I doubt it ... but IMO I'd RATHER have a filter that runs the oil through the filter element as much as possible, and not through the bypass.
Although, the one input in this thread about the turbo line screen getting debris on it kind of eluded that it could have been possibly caused by filter bypass allowing crud to get past the filter and into the engine's oiling system. Something to definitely consider as a possibility if the bypass valve is too weak for this Subaru application.
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
My God! ... if you sent the link to this thread they are going to go completely insane trying to decyper it all!!
I thought they might learn something - or change professions.
I hope they don't do R&D by waiting for car owners to call in with problems or complaints on how the filters are working.
My God! ... if you sent the link to this thread they are going to go completely insane trying to decyper it all!!
I thought they might learn something - or change professions.
I hope they don't do R&D by waiting for car owners to call in with problems or complaints on how the filters are working.
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I sent an inquiry to Wix a couple weeks ago and didn't even get the courtesy of a reply other than the auto-reply bot saying the inquiry was recieved and I would get an answer in a few business days. Never got one. I don't think Wix cares that much, and probably won't be likely to adjust spring rating on the bypass valve to meet 23psi spec.
I'm active over on Subaruforester.org, and plan on sharing the results of this situation over there, once a firm conclusion can be arrived at. So far it seems to be: avoid after market filters, especially Wix, due to Wix's apparent low bypass psi (8 lbs) being only 1/3 of the OE spec (23.2psi). Wix filters are well made, but if the well madeness can still cause excessive bypass due to weak spring spec, it is going to mean your engine is getting unfiltered oil more often than Subaru intends.
Having said that, the ideal filter in this fantasy land of Wix adjusting spec for a super small market (Subaru is small market already, add to that us enthusiasts who actually care about the filter type) would be a 51356 (not typo-- 356 not 365) with its larger media area, same OE diameter, and a 23psi bypass valve instead of the 8 lb one.
I'm active over on Subaruforester.org, and plan on sharing the results of this situation over there, once a firm conclusion can be arrived at. So far it seems to be: avoid after market filters, especially Wix, due to Wix's apparent low bypass psi (8 lbs) being only 1/3 of the OE spec (23.2psi). Wix filters are well made, but if the well madeness can still cause excessive bypass due to weak spring spec, it is going to mean your engine is getting unfiltered oil more often than Subaru intends.
Having said that, the ideal filter in this fantasy land of Wix adjusting spec for a super small market (Subaru is small market already, add to that us enthusiasts who actually care about the filter type) would be a 51356 (not typo-- 356 not 365) with its larger media area, same OE diameter, and a 23psi bypass valve instead of the 8 lb one.
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Here's is what you would likely see on an oil pump of no exceptional volume output at start up where conditions were right for a relief event. Our same 85psi relief limit standing. Assume that visc/temp is appropriate to enable a relief event at startup. Filter has 10PSI rated relief valve.
Above:below
0:0
0-75:0-85
76:85
77:85
78:85
79:85
80:85
81:85
82:85
83:85
82:84
81:83
80:82
..and so on all the way down to normalized temps over majority of the range of engine operation. This may/will include just plain startup and 30 sec idle ..and driving away. The span between the numbers may drift a bit, but this is how they would basically lay out.
Now with a HV pump under the same conditions
0-75:0-85
76:85
77:85
78:85
79:85
80:85
81:85
82:85 (now start to drive)
82:85
83:88
85:90
85:92
85:95
87:97
90:100
and further along in the warm up event
85:95
83:93
83:91
83:89
83:87
83:85
81:83 still at normal engine speeds and warming up
after warm up (probably)
11:13
12:14
20:22
22:24
24:26 etc.etc ..etc. all the way up to where the flowpacity of the filter comes into play - which I've never seen in my testing over a broad span of engine rpms and temp/visc conditions.
The transitions are rather "dynamic" and no one state has any dwell time to speak of. I'm sure when you first start up, shear forces are substantial until the various layers become more fluid. That's how you can manage to actually increase volume while transitioning in relief and not exceed the relief threshold in many applications.
Above:below
0:0
0-75:0-85
76:85
77:85
78:85
79:85
80:85
81:85
82:85
83:85
82:84
81:83
80:82
..and so on all the way down to normalized temps over majority of the range of engine operation. This may/will include just plain startup and 30 sec idle ..and driving away. The span between the numbers may drift a bit, but this is how they would basically lay out.
Now with a HV pump under the same conditions
0-75:0-85
76:85
77:85
78:85
79:85
80:85
81:85
82:85 (now start to drive)
82:85
83:88
85:90
85:92
85:95
87:97
90:100
and further along in the warm up event
85:95
83:93
83:91
83:89
83:87
83:85
81:83 still at normal engine speeds and warming up
after warm up (probably)
11:13
12:14
20:22
22:24
24:26 etc.etc ..etc. all the way up to where the flowpacity of the filter comes into play - which I've never seen in my testing over a broad span of engine rpms and temp/visc conditions.
The transitions are rather "dynamic" and no one state has any dwell time to speak of. I'm sure when you first start up, shear forces are substantial until the various layers become more fluid. That's how you can manage to actually increase volume while transitioning in relief and not exceed the relief threshold in many applications.
All I can say is that the pump will go into relief any time the oil is too cold and/or the engine RPM high engough to make the pump TRY to push an amount of oil volume through the filter/engine flow path that will require more pressure than the relief vavle is set to.
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Well, I surely appreciate your attempt at offering constructive content. Don't take failure too bad. You'll achieve it if you keep at it. All in due time, I guess. Don't rush success. We all should have gotten our 6 digit incomes while we still knew it all. Have faith in yourself, son!!
Quote:
"above:below" ???
The above:below is simply on either side of the filter.
A rare view at the awe and mystery that reaches from the inner mind ..to the Outer Limits
Quote:
All I can say is that the pump will go into relief any time the oil is too cold and/or the engine RPM high engough to make the pump TRY to push an amount of oil volume through the filter/engine flow path that will require more pressure than the relief vavle is set to.
This is true. Some setups run real close to the relief level at full operating temp with spec'd oil. Those will see the most PSID across the filter over the longest/most frequent span of time throughout their lives. Others, like my above example, peak pressure is almost a given every time the engine sees a cold start, regardless of ambient temp (like our subject Subaru here). Only the depth and duration of peak pressure events will vary.
Now that we know that this Bologna guy can't provide us with all the answers for things occurring in the magic can ..we need to reason a few things on our own here.
Quote:
"above:below" ???
The above:below is simply on either side of the filter.
A rare view at the awe and mystery that reaches from the inner mind ..to the Outer Limits
Quote:
All I can say is that the pump will go into relief any time the oil is too cold and/or the engine RPM high engough to make the pump TRY to push an amount of oil volume through the filter/engine flow path that will require more pressure than the relief vavle is set to.
This is true. Some setups run real close to the relief level at full operating temp with spec'd oil. Those will see the most PSID across the filter over the longest/most frequent span of time throughout their lives. Others, like my above example, peak pressure is almost a given every time the engine sees a cold start, regardless of ambient temp (like our subject Subaru here). Only the depth and duration of peak pressure events will vary.
Now that we know that this Bologna guy can't provide us with all the answers for things occurring in the magic can ..we need to reason a few things on our own here.
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- 39,799
"The basement always comes up to meet the ceiling"
To further explain this statement, let's expand the realm of possibilities here.
Let's take our typical Subbie turbo owner who, while having the same 85lb relief HV oil pump, sees 100+ startup cold pressure. I'll venture to say that any cold start produces this starting pressure.
Here the ceiling is raised above the 85lb relief limit. This occurs since the volume that can fit through the relief port is less than Subaru felt sensible at start up visc to deprive the engine of in the maintenance of that 85lb spec.
This will maintain the differential across the filter.
85-23= 62
105-23= 82
The only difference at the exact same volume(s) is a matter of viscosity. Use a 0w-10 oil ..and this would not show the same pressures since the radically reduced visc would fit more easily through the engine and the relief port.
Here's an alternative way of viewing it. It requires a bit of massaging ..and is not offered for "the truth" of what necessarily occurs ..but if you eliminate a few roadblocks it can (perhaps) give you something else to relate to in how it appears.
important side note: I have never studied any of properties of Non-Newtonian vs. Newtonian physics as applied to fluids. I've asked questions of those who do and massaged what they've attempted to demonstrate into agreed to parallels that I can relate to/integrate. That's why I qualify everything with that it is not presented for "the truth" ..but merely to demonstrate the rationale/reasoning applied.
It's almost like a transition from a Non-Newtonian state to Newtonian (for all I know, Newtonian fluids DO transition from a Non-Newtonian "state" to a Newtonian state all the time
) ..except that this is usually demonstrated with a spinning spindle in a beaker. A Newtonian fluid will shear and form a bunch of circles that slow as they move to the outer edge of the beaker. Each layer producing friction to the next ..causing it to start moving. The faster the spindle turns, the mean velocity of the fluid increases.
Now take cake batter and do the same thing. You'll form a very small circle of motion ..and there will be no cascading movement toward the outer edge of the beaker.
Now you just replace the Non-Newtonian fluid in a beaker with a Newtonian fluid that represents enough mass to effectively simulate the same para-effect through a conduit. For a moment, consider it even the lightest fluid you can think of ..in any BIG conduit that you can think of ..but make it a mile long ..just to make 1gpm equating to several thousand pounds of fluid having to be moved at 1gpm between inlet and outlet. I think that you can figure that it's going to take a very long time for any pump to bring that mass up to speed. It may never occur and you'll be in a perpetual relief. Now just tone that down a good bit. You'll reduce the time lag ..or the "phase" relationship between pressure applied ..and volume moved.
Other views:
Think of a steam locomotive spinning its wheels at startup. A muscle car doing a burn out. Do they not parallel maximum applied pressure/force until the motion matches the applied power?
Let's just measure the time that a drag car has less than 100% traction. Isn't there a "differential" that evaporates after full traction is achieved? Now consider viscosity the mass of the car being pushed. Too much mass, longer burn out duration. The longer the "differential" will be maintained.
This is the same with torque converters ..except that they never completely hook up (without a mechanical clutch). You start off with a massive differential that evaporates as the mass gets accelerated.
Boat props ..same deal. It's this "out of phase" relationship that produces the PSID across your filter in most of the elevated PSID events that it will ever see.
Again, non of my examples are stated for "the truth". It's merely to offer other events that may allow you to get a grip on how relief events effect PSID and ..ultimately, filter bypass events.
There are other factors in the mix over the full scope of how a filter reacts in terms of pressure differential. One is loading. This effectively reduces the media ^2" and increases the impact of volume (at visc) through it. It WOULD simulate higher volumes up to the point where volume may be significant enough to make the filter a factor. In my experience with used filters, this still has limited impact ..but YMMV if you're dwelling in higher volume states with extended loading on the filter.
To further explain this statement, let's expand the realm of possibilities here.
Let's take our typical Subbie turbo owner who, while having the same 85lb relief HV oil pump, sees 100+ startup cold pressure. I'll venture to say that any cold start produces this starting pressure.
Here the ceiling is raised above the 85lb relief limit. This occurs since the volume that can fit through the relief port is less than Subaru felt sensible at start up visc to deprive the engine of in the maintenance of that 85lb spec.
This will maintain the differential across the filter.
85-23= 62
105-23= 82
The only difference at the exact same volume(s) is a matter of viscosity. Use a 0w-10 oil ..and this would not show the same pressures since the radically reduced visc would fit more easily through the engine and the relief port.
Here's an alternative way of viewing it. It requires a bit of massaging ..and is not offered for "the truth" of what necessarily occurs ..but if you eliminate a few roadblocks it can (perhaps) give you something else to relate to in how it appears.
important side note: I have never studied any of properties of Non-Newtonian vs. Newtonian physics as applied to fluids. I've asked questions of those who do and massaged what they've attempted to demonstrate into agreed to parallels that I can relate to/integrate. That's why I qualify everything with that it is not presented for "the truth" ..but merely to demonstrate the rationale/reasoning applied.
It's almost like a transition from a Non-Newtonian state to Newtonian (for all I know, Newtonian fluids DO transition from a Non-Newtonian "state" to a Newtonian state all the time
Now take cake batter and do the same thing. You'll form a very small circle of motion ..and there will be no cascading movement toward the outer edge of the beaker.
Now you just replace the Non-Newtonian fluid in a beaker with a Newtonian fluid that represents enough mass to effectively simulate the same para-effect through a conduit. For a moment, consider it even the lightest fluid you can think of ..in any BIG conduit that you can think of ..but make it a mile long ..just to make 1gpm equating to several thousand pounds of fluid having to be moved at 1gpm between inlet and outlet. I think that you can figure that it's going to take a very long time for any pump to bring that mass up to speed. It may never occur and you'll be in a perpetual relief. Now just tone that down a good bit. You'll reduce the time lag ..or the "phase" relationship between pressure applied ..and volume moved.
Other views:
Think of a steam locomotive spinning its wheels at startup. A muscle car doing a burn out. Do they not parallel maximum applied pressure/force until the motion matches the applied power?
Let's just measure the time that a drag car has less than 100% traction. Isn't there a "differential" that evaporates after full traction is achieved? Now consider viscosity the mass of the car being pushed. Too much mass, longer burn out duration. The longer the "differential" will be maintained.
This is the same with torque converters ..except that they never completely hook up (without a mechanical clutch). You start off with a massive differential that evaporates as the mass gets accelerated.
Boat props ..same deal. It's this "out of phase" relationship that produces the PSID across your filter in most of the elevated PSID events that it will ever see.
Again, non of my examples are stated for "the truth". It's merely to offer other events that may allow you to get a grip on how relief events effect PSID and ..ultimately, filter bypass events.
There are other factors in the mix over the full scope of how a filter reacts in terms of pressure differential. One is loading. This effectively reduces the media ^2" and increases the impact of volume (at visc) through it. It WOULD simulate higher volumes up to the point where volume may be significant enough to make the filter a factor. In my experience with used filters, this still has limited impact ..but YMMV if you're dwelling in higher volume states with extended loading on the filter.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, I surely appreciate your attempt at offering constructive content. Don't take failure too bad. You'll achieve it if you keep at it. All in due time, I guess. Don't rush success. We all should have gotten our 6 digit incomes while we still knew it all. Have faith in yourself, son!!
Constructive content is only constructive if the receiver of the content opens his head and understands said content. It's hard to get "someone" with deep rooted erroneous thoughts to see the light of truth.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
"above:below" ???
The above:below is simply on either side of the filter.
A rare view at the awe and mystery that reaches from the inner mind ..to the Outer Limits
Would have been nice to have those few extra key words to unlock the mysterious thoughts in a Gary post. I'm pretty cognizant of my world, but not quite to the ESP level just yet.
So what's the qualifying information for the gauge readings above? So now we know the cryptic "above:below" is the pressure across the filter. But at what exact operating conditions, as we both know the PSID is highly dependent on many factors. PSID of ~8 psi showing ... could it already be in filter bypass? ... hummm, could be.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
All I can say is that the pump will go into relief any time the oil is too cold and/or the engine RPM high enough to make the pump TRY to push an amount of oil volume through the filter/engine flow path that will require more pressure than the relief valve is set to.
This is true.
When did you change your mind? ... this stuff must be slowly oozing in through subconscious osmosis.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Some setups run real close to the relief level at full operating temp with spec'd oil. Those will see the most PSID across the filter over the longest/most frequent span of time throughout their lives. Others, like my above example, peak pressure is almost a given every time the engine sees a cold start, regardless of ambient temp (like our subject Subaru here). Only the depth and duration of peak pressure events will vary.
When did you change your mind? ...
A while back you were pretty sure that as the oil gets to operating temperature that the PSID across the filter "disappears", "evaporates", etc to basically zero. Just as I was saying all along, in a case like the Subaru in question, if the wrong filter is used with a bypass setting much lower than specified, then there will be many more and longer bypass events ... maybe even when the oil is at full temp with high RPM. This keeps coming back to what I've been saying since page 1 of this thread. Amazing.
Well, I surely appreciate your attempt at offering constructive content. Don't take failure too bad. You'll achieve it if you keep at it. All in due time, I guess. Don't rush success. We all should have gotten our 6 digit incomes while we still knew it all. Have faith in yourself, son!!
Constructive content is only constructive if the receiver of the content opens his head and understands said content. It's hard to get "someone" with deep rooted erroneous thoughts to see the light of truth.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
"above:below" ???
The above:below is simply on either side of the filter.
A rare view at the awe and mystery that reaches from the inner mind ..to the Outer Limits
Would have been nice to have those few extra key words to unlock the mysterious thoughts in a Gary post. I'm pretty cognizant of my world, but not quite to the ESP level just yet.
So what's the qualifying information for the gauge readings above? So now we know the cryptic "above:below" is the pressure across the filter. But at what exact operating conditions, as we both know the PSID is highly dependent on many factors. PSID of ~8 psi showing ... could it already be in filter bypass? ... hummm, could be.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
All I can say is that the pump will go into relief any time the oil is too cold and/or the engine RPM high enough to make the pump TRY to push an amount of oil volume through the filter/engine flow path that will require more pressure than the relief valve is set to.
This is true.
When did you change your mind? ... this stuff must be slowly oozing in through subconscious osmosis.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Some setups run real close to the relief level at full operating temp with spec'd oil. Those will see the most PSID across the filter over the longest/most frequent span of time throughout their lives. Others, like my above example, peak pressure is almost a given every time the engine sees a cold start, regardless of ambient temp (like our subject Subaru here). Only the depth and duration of peak pressure events will vary.
When did you change your mind? ...
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- 39,799
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Gary Allan said:Quote:
All I can say is that the pump will go into relief any time the oil is too cold and/or the engine RPM high enough to make the pump TRY to push an amount of oil volume through the filter/engine flow path that will require more pressure than the relief valve is set to.
This is true.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Some setups run real close to the relief level at full operating temp with spec'd oil. Those will see the most PSID across the filter over the longest/most frequent span of time throughout their lives. Others, like my above example, peak pressure is almost a given every time the engine sees a cold start, regardless of ambient temp (like our subject Subaru here). Only the depth and duration of peak pressure events will vary.
When did you change your mind? ...A while back you were pretty sure that as the oil gets to operating temperature that the PSID across the filter "disappears", "evaporates", etc to basically zero. Just as I was saying all along, in a case like the Subaru in question, if the wrong filter is used with a bypass setting much lower than specified, then there will be many more and longer bypass events ... maybe even when the oil is at full temp with high RPM. This keeps coming back to what I've been saying since page 1 of this thread. Amazing.
I see no reference to operating temperature at all in your post that I agreed with. You simply stated, and I quote:
Quote:
All I can say is that the pump will go into relief any time the oil is too cold and/or the engine RPM high enough to make the pump TRY to push an amount of oil volume through the filter/engine flow path that will require more pressure than the relief valve is set to.
You stated IF the oil was too cold (hence too thick) or the engine rpm too high, you'll be in relief. This was never disputed.
Your whole dispute with (just about) everything I've stated is just what causes PSID across the filter. I've successfully demonstrated conditions where PSID retreats in the midst of increased throughput of the filter specifically because of the relief event.
This has throw a monkey wrench in any absolute value to Ballony's immutable principles of flow dynamics ..or at least compressed them into irrelevancy in a SIZABLE chuck of our known reality
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Here's is what you would likely see on an oil pump of no exceptional volume output at start up where conditions were right for a relief event. Our same 85psi relief limit standing. Assume that visc/temp is appropriate to enable a relief event at startup. Filter has 10PSI rated relief valve.
Above:below
0:0
0-75:0-85
76:85
77:85
78:85
79:85
80:85
81:85
82:85
83:85
82:84
81:83
80:82
..and so on all the way down to normalized temps over majority of the range of engine operation. This may/will include just plain startup and 30 sec idle ..and driving away. The span between the numbers may drift a bit, but this is how they would basically lay out.
Let's regress a bit here and readdress your so called "brilliant" analysis above. Since we now have established that your nomenclature "above:below" means the oil pressure "above" (before) and "below" (after) the filter ... how is it possible that the pressure is HIGHER after ("below") the filter than before the filter?
The most BASIC principle of fluid flow is that a PRESSURE DIFFERENCE makes fluid flow ... and fluid flows from a HIGH to LOW pressure. Bernoulli would flunk your arse over this big misunderstanding of basic fluid dynamics.
No wonder I didn't get it.
Here's is what you would likely see on an oil pump of no exceptional volume output at start up where conditions were right for a relief event. Our same 85psi relief limit standing. Assume that visc/temp is appropriate to enable a relief event at startup. Filter has 10PSI rated relief valve.
Above:below
0:0
0-75:0-85
76:85
77:85
78:85
79:85
80:85
81:85
82:85
83:85
82:84
81:83
80:82
..and so on all the way down to normalized temps over majority of the range of engine operation. This may/will include just plain startup and 30 sec idle ..and driving away. The span between the numbers may drift a bit, but this is how they would basically lay out.
Let's regress a bit here and readdress your so called "brilliant" analysis above. Since we now have established that your nomenclature "above:below" means the oil pressure "above" (before) and "below" (after) the filter ... how is it possible that the pressure is HIGHER after ("below") the filter than before the filter?
The most BASIC principle of fluid flow is that a PRESSURE DIFFERENCE makes fluid flow ... and fluid flows from a HIGH to LOW pressure. Bernoulli would flunk your arse over this big misunderstanding of basic fluid dynamics.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Invert it for sensibility ..or you could use it for senseless distraction from/of what it's trying to communicate. Be my guest
When you go to the WIX site and see Beta 2/20 = 12/42 when you KNOW that the proper nomenclature is Beta12=2 and Beta42=20
..do you sit there and look
and ponder that the WIX engineers are "wrong"??
I tend to wonder ... given your need to (apparently) re-educate me. I tend to think that you actually believe that I think otherwise ..which does bring YOUR cerebral capabilities into question
I gave you more credit than that ..but I may have been mistaken
When you go to the WIX site and see Beta 2/20 = 12/42 when you KNOW that the proper nomenclature is Beta12=2 and Beta42=20
..do you sit there and look
I tend to wonder ... given your need to (apparently) re-educate me. I tend to think that you actually believe that I think otherwise ..which does bring YOUR cerebral capabilities into question
I gave you more credit than that ..but I may have been mistaken
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Invert it for sensibility ..or you could use it for senseless distraction of what it's trying to communicate. Be my guest
When you go to the WIX site and see Beta 2/20 = 12/42 when you KNOW that the proper nomenclature is Beta12=2 and Beta42=20
..do you sit there and look
I tend to wonder given your need to (apparently) re-educate me. I tend to think that you actually belief that I think otherwise ..which does bring YOUR cerebral capabilities into question
I gave you more credit than that ..but I may have been mistaken
Dude ... I can't try to assume that you're stating everything backwards when you really mean it otherwise. No wonder these discussions are so screwed up and go in circles half the time. Can't even follow your reasoning on some of this stuff that makes it look like you don't understand what's going on. I still wonder.
If you don't want misunderstanding, then relay the information correctly. I really don't see how you could blunder on something like that without actually thinking the physics were working as you stated. Backpedaling is easy to see.
Invert it for sensibility ..or you could use it for senseless distraction of what it's trying to communicate. Be my guest
When you go to the WIX site and see Beta 2/20 = 12/42 when you KNOW that the proper nomenclature is Beta12=2 and Beta42=20
..do you sit there and look
I tend to wonder given your need to (apparently) re-educate me. I tend to think that you actually belief that I think otherwise ..which does bring YOUR cerebral capabilities into question
I gave you more credit than that ..but I may have been mistaken
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Quote:
Backpedaling is easy to see. ;\)
Yeah ..now how did you rationalize PSID evaporating when transitioning out of a relief event??? Perhaps not backpedaling ..more like tap dancing..
Backpedaling is easy to see. ;\)
Yeah ..now how did you rationalize PSID evaporating when transitioning out of a relief event??? Perhaps not backpedaling ..more like tap dancing..
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
You stated IF the oil was too cold (hence too thick) or the engine rpm too high, you'll be in relief. This was never disputed.
Perfect
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Your whole dispute with (just about) everything I've stated is just what causes PSID across the filter. I've successfully demonstrated conditions where PSID retreats in the midst of increased throughput of the filter specifically because of the relief event.
The only way the filter's PSID can "retreat" with "increased throughput of the filter" is if the oil viscosity goes WAY down (becomes super thin) in such a manner that it significantly over-rides the effects of the increased volume factor. Not disagreeing here, just stating that the conditions have to be right ... and usually are on most cars (without HV pumps) as you will always see the oil pressure do down significantly with thinner oil.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
This has throw a monkey wrench in any absolute value to Ballony's immutable principles of flow dynamics ..or at least compressed them into irrelevancy in a SIZABLE chuck of our known reality
... seems like a nonsensical statement since you don't really have one clue on how Bernoulli's principles apply in these discussions.
You stated IF the oil was too cold (hence too thick) or the engine rpm too high, you'll be in relief. This was never disputed.
Perfect
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Your whole dispute with (just about) everything I've stated is just what causes PSID across the filter. I've successfully demonstrated conditions where PSID retreats in the midst of increased throughput of the filter specifically because of the relief event.
The only way the filter's PSID can "retreat" with "increased throughput of the filter" is if the oil viscosity goes WAY down (becomes super thin) in such a manner that it significantly over-rides the effects of the increased volume factor. Not disagreeing here, just stating that the conditions have to be right ... and usually are on most cars (without HV pumps) as you will always see the oil pressure do down significantly with thinner oil.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
This has throw a monkey wrench in any absolute value to Ballony's immutable principles of flow dynamics ..or at least compressed them into irrelevancy in a SIZABLE chuck of our known reality
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Backpedaling is easy to see. ;\)
Yeah ..now how did you rationalize PSID evaporating when transitioning out of a relief event??? Perhaps not backpedaling ..more like tap dancing..
... I never claimed or "rationalized" that filter PSID "evaporated" at any point ... you did somewhere along the way in this discussion. You're really going in circles now.
The fact is, and I've said it all along, is that there will ALWAYS be some level of PSID across the filter if there is flow through it ... be it with or without the oil pump in relief mode. The pump being in relief mode or not doesn't change the reality that the PSID is directly related to the flow and viscosity of the oil going through the filter.
Quote:
Backpedaling is easy to see. ;\)
Yeah ..now how did you rationalize PSID evaporating when transitioning out of a relief event??? Perhaps not backpedaling ..more like tap dancing..
The fact is, and I've said it all along, is that there will ALWAYS be some level of PSID across the filter if there is flow through it ... be it with or without the oil pump in relief mode. The pump being in relief mode or not doesn't change the reality that the PSID is directly related to the flow and viscosity of the oil going through the filter.
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Quote:
The only way the filter's PSID can "retreat" with "increased throughput of the filter" is if the oil viscosity goes WAY down (becomes super thin) in such a manner that it significantly over-rides the effects of the increased volume factor. Not disagreeing here, just stating that the conditions have to be right ... and usually are on most cars (without HV pumps) as you will always see the oil pressure do down significantly with thinner oil.
Knock-knock
Remember me?
85lb relief - filter in bypass @ 23lb pressure "drop" ..leaving 62lb pressure read at the engine??
What occurs when less flow is sent out the relief port? Hint: MORE flow goes to the engine.
So
..the filter can NO LONGER drop 23lb.
How can this be? MORE flow is traveling through the filter ..and ...lo a and behold..ONLY the engine side pressure increases. Amazing
As the relieved amount of oil approaches ZERO ..so will the PSID across the filter. It will be RADICALLY reduced to next to nothing.
The only way the filter's PSID can "retreat" with "increased throughput of the filter" is if the oil viscosity goes WAY down (becomes super thin) in such a manner that it significantly over-rides the effects of the increased volume factor. Not disagreeing here, just stating that the conditions have to be right ... and usually are on most cars (without HV pumps) as you will always see the oil pressure do down significantly with thinner oil.
Knock-knock
Remember me?
85lb relief - filter in bypass @ 23lb pressure "drop" ..leaving 62lb pressure read at the engine??
What occurs when less flow is sent out the relief port? Hint: MORE flow goes to the engine.
So
..the filter can NO LONGER drop 23lb.
How can this be? MORE flow is traveling through the filter ..and ...lo a and behold..ONLY the engine side pressure increases. Amazing
As the relieved amount of oil approaches ZERO ..so will the PSID across the filter. It will be RADICALLY reduced to next to nothing.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
The only way the filter's PSID can "retreat" with "increased throughput of the filter" is if the oil viscosity goes WAY down (becomes super thin) in such a manner that it significantly over-rides the effects of the increased volume factor. Not disagreeing here, just stating that the conditions have to be right ... and usually are on most cars (without HV pumps) as you will always see the oil pressure do down significantly with thinner oil.
Knock-knock
Remember me?
85lb relief - filter in bypass @ 23lb pressure "drop" ..leaving 62lb pressure read at the engine??
Some initial conditions, but actually not enough as it falls apart below.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
What occurs when less flow is sent out the relief port? Hint: MORE flow goes to the engine.
So
..the filter can NO LONGER drop 23lb.
Now what's causing less flow through the relief port and causing the pump out of relief? Hotter oil, less RPM, both? All these factors will have a direct effect on what pump output volume will cause the relief valve to open or close, as well as effect the PSID across the filter and the engine's oil pressure reading.
If the pump goes out of relief and sends more volume to the filter/engine at the same time (while at the same RPM), then that can only happen if the oil is becoming hotter/thinner.
If the oil viscosity remains constant, then the only way the pump can go out of relief is to reduce through pump's RPM, which means it's output volume must also go down.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
How can this be? MORE flow is traveling through the filter ..and ...lo a and behold..ONLY the engine side pressure increases. Amazing
As the relieved amount of oil approaches ZERO ..so will the PSID across the filter. It will be RADICALLY reduced to next to nothing.
If the oil's viscosity remains constant, then more engine oil pressure means more flow through the engine ... do you agree? If so, then you can't dispute that there is also more flow through the filter - you said so above. If there is more oil flow through the filter, then there is also a larger PSID across the filter - and if that PSID is above the bypass setting, then the filter will be in bypass mode.
It's the way it works ... "filter PSID will not approach zero" unless the engine oil pressure approaches zero. The filter's PSID will obviously be much lower than the engine's PSID ... not argurment there. But any time the engine oil pressure is high (high volume flow), then the filter's PSID is also relatively higher. Any time the engine's oil pressure is low (low volume flow), then so is the filter's relative PSID. They both go up and down in unison from 0 to their peak range, and the absolute values of the filter and engine PSID is dependant on the resistance ratio of the two in the serial flow path. Didn't we agree on that some time ago?
There is NO physical way that you can increase the engine's flow volume and pressure without also increasing the filter's flow volume and relative PSID. The filter's PSID can NOT go down to near zero while the engine's volume flow and pressure goes up. Sorry, ther is no way it can happen ...
Quote:
The only way the filter's PSID can "retreat" with "increased throughput of the filter" is if the oil viscosity goes WAY down (becomes super thin) in such a manner that it significantly over-rides the effects of the increased volume factor. Not disagreeing here, just stating that the conditions have to be right ... and usually are on most cars (without HV pumps) as you will always see the oil pressure do down significantly with thinner oil.
Knock-knock
Remember me?
85lb relief - filter in bypass @ 23lb pressure "drop" ..leaving 62lb pressure read at the engine??
Some initial conditions, but actually not enough as it falls apart below.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
What occurs when less flow is sent out the relief port? Hint: MORE flow goes to the engine.
So
..the filter can NO LONGER drop 23lb.
Now what's causing less flow through the relief port and causing the pump out of relief? Hotter oil, less RPM, both? All these factors will have a direct effect on what pump output volume will cause the relief valve to open or close, as well as effect the PSID across the filter and the engine's oil pressure reading.
If the pump goes out of relief and sends more volume to the filter/engine at the same time (while at the same RPM), then that can only happen if the oil is becoming hotter/thinner.
If the oil viscosity remains constant, then the only way the pump can go out of relief is to reduce through pump's RPM, which means it's output volume must also go down.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
How can this be? MORE flow is traveling through the filter ..and ...lo a and behold..ONLY the engine side pressure increases. Amazing
As the relieved amount of oil approaches ZERO ..so will the PSID across the filter. It will be RADICALLY reduced to next to nothing.
If the oil's viscosity remains constant, then more engine oil pressure means more flow through the engine ... do you agree? If so, then you can't dispute that there is also more flow through the filter - you said so above. If there is more oil flow through the filter, then there is also a larger PSID across the filter - and if that PSID is above the bypass setting, then the filter will be in bypass mode.
It's the way it works ... "filter PSID will not approach zero" unless the engine oil pressure approaches zero. The filter's PSID will obviously be much lower than the engine's PSID ... not argurment there. But any time the engine oil pressure is high (high volume flow), then the filter's PSID is also relatively higher. Any time the engine's oil pressure is low (low volume flow), then so is the filter's relative PSID. They both go up and down in unison from 0 to their peak range, and the absolute values of the filter and engine PSID is dependant on the resistance ratio of the two in the serial flow path. Didn't we agree on that some time ago?
There is NO physical way that you can increase the engine's flow volume and pressure without also increasing the filter's flow volume and relative PSID. The filter's PSID can NOT go down to near zero while the engine's volume flow and pressure goes up. Sorry, ther is no way it can happen ...
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Quote:
Now what's causing less flow through the relief port and causing the pump out of relief? Hotter oil, less RPM, both? All these factors will have a direct effect on what pump output volume will cause the relief valve to open or close, as well as effect the PSID across the filter and the engine's oil pressure reading.
Dood!! The system pressure is fixed in this scenario ..the ENGINE PRESSURE CAME UP TO MEET IT
All due to more flow.
How can a filter, that YOU HAVE ALLEGED (TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN) AlWAYS HAS INCREASED PSID WITH AN INCREASE IN FLOW, DROP LESS PSID IN THE MIDST OF MORE FLOW???
According to you and your heralded Ballony, it can't. It's all the undeniable laws of physics that I've ignored
Riddle us that, batman
It's because the PSID IS NOT because of restriction to flow (OF THE FILTER), but the divergence of flow and the "apparent" effect that THAT condition creates as seen by the filter. Maximized pressure at reduced pressure over resistance derived flow.
Now what's causing less flow through the relief port and causing the pump out of relief? Hotter oil, less RPM, both? All these factors will have a direct effect on what pump output volume will cause the relief valve to open or close, as well as effect the PSID across the filter and the engine's oil pressure reading.
How can a filter, that YOU HAVE ALLEGED (TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN) AlWAYS HAS INCREASED PSID WITH AN INCREASE IN FLOW, DROP LESS PSID IN THE MIDST OF MORE FLOW???
According to you and your heralded Ballony, it can't. It's all the undeniable laws of physics that I've ignored
Riddle us that, batman
It's because the PSID IS NOT because of restriction to flow (OF THE FILTER), but the divergence of flow and the "apparent" effect that THAT condition creates as seen by the filter. Maximized pressure at reduced pressure over resistance derived flow.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Now what's causing less flow through the relief port and causing the pump out of relief? Hotter oil, less RPM, both? All these factors will have a direct effect on what pump output volume will cause the relief valve to open or close, as well as effect the PSID across the filter and the engine's oil pressure reading.
Dood!! The system pressure is fixed in this scenario ..the ENGINE PRESSURE CAME UP TO MEET IT
All due to more flow.
You must have some good stuff there - how are you dreaming this stuff up?
If the system (pump supply) pressure is fixed, then there will always be the same relative pressure drop split ratio across the filter and engine that will stay in proportion to the flow resistance ratio of the filter vs. engine flow resistance. It is IMPOSSIBLE for either the filter or engine to change it's relative pressure drop ratio because their flow resistance is FIXED, AND the SAME FLOW is going through both. That would be like saying the voltage drop across a resistor magically changes when the resistance value never changed with the same current going through it. Man, this really is the Twilight Zone.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
How can a filter, that YOU HAVE ALLEGED (TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN) AlWAYS HAS INCREASED PSID WITH AN INCREASE IN FLOW, DROP LESS PSID IN THE MIDST OF MORE FLOW???
According to you and your heralded Ballony, it can't. It's all the undeniable laws of physics that I've ignored
Riddle us that, batman
Huh? ... it CAN'T. I've never claimed that a filter will "drop less PSID in the midst of more flow" - but you have, so yeah, you ignored undeniable laws of fluid dynamics (more than once, I might add). In ANY FLOW PATH (with all variables constant except FLOW), the more flow you have the more PSID you produce. It's that SIMPLE ... even a caveman could do it.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
It's because the PSID IS NOT because of restriction to flow (OF THE FILTER), but the divergence of flow and the "apparent" effect that THAT condition creates as seen by the filter. Maximized pressure at reduced pressure over resistance derived flow.
***? ...
Sorry ... this really is out there - "divergence of flow" of what and to where? Dude, what flows through the filter flows through the engine. It can't be any other way. That last sentence seems like a double oxymoron ... wild stuff.
PSID is ALWAYS due to flow going through a restriction. It is just plain blatantly WRONG to say a pressure drop across a filter (or any other flow restriction) is not caused by the fluid and it's properties flowing through it. You really need to do some basic fluid dynamics home schooling lessons ... Bernoulli is waiting.
Quote:
Now what's causing less flow through the relief port and causing the pump out of relief? Hotter oil, less RPM, both? All these factors will have a direct effect on what pump output volume will cause the relief valve to open or close, as well as effect the PSID across the filter and the engine's oil pressure reading.
You must have some good stuff there - how are you dreaming this stuff up?
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
How can a filter, that YOU HAVE ALLEGED (TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN) AlWAYS HAS INCREASED PSID WITH AN INCREASE IN FLOW, DROP LESS PSID IN THE MIDST OF MORE FLOW???
According to you and your heralded Ballony, it can't. It's all the undeniable laws of physics that I've ignored
Riddle us that, batman
Huh? ... it CAN'T. I've never claimed that a filter will "drop less PSID in the midst of more flow" - but you have, so yeah, you ignored undeniable laws of fluid dynamics (more than once, I might add). In ANY FLOW PATH (with all variables constant except FLOW), the more flow you have the more PSID you produce. It's that SIMPLE ... even a caveman could do it.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
It's because the PSID IS NOT because of restriction to flow (OF THE FILTER), but the divergence of flow and the "apparent" effect that THAT condition creates as seen by the filter. Maximized pressure at reduced pressure over resistance derived flow.
***? ...
PSID is ALWAYS due to flow going through a restriction. It is just plain blatantly WRONG to say a pressure drop across a filter (or any other flow restriction) is not caused by the fluid and it's properties flowing through it. You really need to do some basic fluid dynamics home schooling lessons ... Bernoulli is waiting.
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