He's definitely wrong, Jay has taken members on a Fram plant tour to see firsthand their testing & quality control labs, and has always been quick to help out anyone who's had a failure (on the rare occasion that it's happened). Unless you have an EXTREME short trip vehicle, or one that is getting moisture into the oil, there's nothing wrong with an EG for a short OCI, and the Ultra is one of the best synthetic filters around-even when compared to one twice as expensive!
So, Fram filters...why the bad rap?
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Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Originally Posted By: Motorking
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Im saying that if they used metal end caps, this point would be mute since the ONLY argument that anyone ever has either for or against the Fram OCOD is those blasted end caps. It isn't filtration, micron rating, media etc. Its just about the endcaps. Just stop cheaping out, put metal end caps on them and move on!
Your argument sucks dude. Metal end caps are going away in the filter industry. Mann and Hummel is making filters with fiber end discs, Filtron and Filtec are doing the same. Some filter makers are just weaving the ends of the pleats togther, some are using only plastisol glue as an end cap. Are you saying you really do not care if the filter cleans the oil? Only if it has a steel end cap? The end cap purpose in life is to carry the plastisol glue that seals the ends of the media, nothing more. And a porous fiber end disc will bond to the glue much better than a smooth steel end cap. Nissan uses fiber end caps OE, so does Honda, Subaru, Bentley, AC Delco (felt) Toyota (no end cap)do you think the engine designers at all those companies are stupid? We invented a less expensive way to make a filter that allows us to spend money on high efficiency media, and that my friend is what keeps your oil clean.
Apollo get off it. You like Fram. I dont. I get it. I am not wrong and my argument doesn't "suck." You never hear anyone complain about filtration, efficiency, flow, can density or anything else. These arguments always revolve around end caps. That is it. Period. Maybe you should be thankful that Fram doesn't change the endcaps, so that you can keep finding something (and someone) to argue with.
Originally Posted By: Motorking
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Im saying that if they used metal end caps, this point would be mute since the ONLY argument that anyone ever has either for or against the Fram OCOD is those blasted end caps. It isn't filtration, micron rating, media etc. Its just about the endcaps. Just stop cheaping out, put metal end caps on them and move on!
Your argument sucks dude. Metal end caps are going away in the filter industry. Mann and Hummel is making filters with fiber end discs, Filtron and Filtec are doing the same. Some filter makers are just weaving the ends of the pleats togther, some are using only plastisol glue as an end cap. Are you saying you really do not care if the filter cleans the oil? Only if it has a steel end cap? The end cap purpose in life is to carry the plastisol glue that seals the ends of the media, nothing more. And a porous fiber end disc will bond to the glue much better than a smooth steel end cap. Nissan uses fiber end caps OE, so does Honda, Subaru, Bentley, AC Delco (felt) Toyota (no end cap)do you think the engine designers at all those companies are stupid? We invented a less expensive way to make a filter that allows us to spend money on high efficiency media, and that my friend is what keeps your oil clean.
Apollo get off it. You like Fram. I dont. I get it. I am not wrong and my argument doesn't "suck." You never hear anyone complain about filtration, efficiency, flow, can density or anything else. These arguments always revolve around end caps. That is it. Period. Maybe you should be thankful that Fram doesn't change the endcaps, so that you can keep finding something (and someone) to argue with.
Here is a good read.
Eating crow, Fram oil filters, and my visit to Fram's R&D facility in Dayton Ohio
Eating crow, Fram oil filters, and my visit to Fram's R&D facility in Dayton Ohio
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Apollo get off it. You like Fram. I dont. I get it. I am not wrong and my argument doesn't "suck." You never hear anyone complain about filtration, efficiency, flow, can density or anything else. These arguments always revolve around end caps. That is it. Period. Maybe you should be thankful that Fram doesn't change the endcaps, so that you can keep finding something (and someone) to argue with.
Your argument does suck unless you can state why fiber end caps are bad. Not because you don't like them or you think they are cheap but why they are bad. Why they are worse than metal.
Apollo get off it. You like Fram. I dont. I get it. I am not wrong and my argument doesn't "suck." You never hear anyone complain about filtration, efficiency, flow, can density or anything else. These arguments always revolve around end caps. That is it. Period. Maybe you should be thankful that Fram doesn't change the endcaps, so that you can keep finding something (and someone) to argue with.
Your argument does suck unless you can state why fiber end caps are bad. Not because you don't like them or you think they are cheap but why they are bad. Why they are worse than metal.
Very good read! Thanks for posting!
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Apollo get off it. You like Fram. I dont. I get it. I am not wrong and my argument doesn't "suck." You never hear anyone complain about filtration, efficiency, flow, can density or anything else. These arguments always revolve around end caps. That is it. Period. Maybe you should be thankful that Fram doesn't change the endcaps, so that you can keep finding something (and someone) to argue with.
Your argument does suck unless you can state why fiber end caps are bad. Not because you don't like them or you think they are cheap but why they are bad. Why they are worse than metal.
Goodness gracious. When you find a Fram argument that is over anything other than those darn endcaps you let me know ok? All I'm saying is that that is the main argument when those who embrace the OCOD butt heads with those who don't.
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Apollo get off it. You like Fram. I dont. I get it. I am not wrong and my argument doesn't "suck." You never hear anyone complain about filtration, efficiency, flow, can density or anything else. These arguments always revolve around end caps. That is it. Period. Maybe you should be thankful that Fram doesn't change the endcaps, so that you can keep finding something (and someone) to argue with.
Your argument does suck unless you can state why fiber end caps are bad. Not because you don't like them or you think they are cheap but why they are bad. Why they are worse than metal.
Goodness gracious. When you find a Fram argument that is over anything other than those darn endcaps you let me know ok? All I'm saying is that that is the main argument when those who embrace the OCOD butt heads with those who don't.
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Goodness gracious. When you find a Fram argument that is over anything other than those darn endcaps you let me know ok? All I'm saying is that that is the main argument when those who embrace the OCOD butt heads with those who don't.
You STILL don't get it. You stated this
post #3478309)
Quote:
Motor king I'm not sure you can answer this, and you very well may not be able to, but earlier in the thread I believe you had cited the Wix campaign that began the cardboard V. Metal debate. Why hasn't Fram ever just released a budget line like the orange can with metal end caps to appease the consumers that find metal end caps more appealing? Speaking strictly as a consumer, if Fram released such a product, I would go back to orange can. I used one for years, but then like so many others I abandoned them when I heard fiber board horror stories.
So where are these horror stories?
Your argument seems to be "I don't like fiber end caps therefore the Fram Orange sucks." But never the why they suck? Why they are inferior? Why fiber in the filter is bad but suddenly when it's on the end cap, all heck breaks loose?
And I've not used a Fram Orange Can in probably 15 years. Last was probably their FL1A equivalent on a 1986 Mustang with a 2.3L 4 banger. I typically use Motorcrafts.
In the interest of full disclosure, the next filter for the F150's OC is a Fram Ultra.
Goodness gracious. When you find a Fram argument that is over anything other than those darn endcaps you let me know ok? All I'm saying is that that is the main argument when those who embrace the OCOD butt heads with those who don't.
You STILL don't get it. You stated this
post #3478309)Quote:
Motor king I'm not sure you can answer this, and you very well may not be able to, but earlier in the thread I believe you had cited the Wix campaign that began the cardboard V. Metal debate. Why hasn't Fram ever just released a budget line like the orange can with metal end caps to appease the consumers that find metal end caps more appealing? Speaking strictly as a consumer, if Fram released such a product, I would go back to orange can. I used one for years, but then like so many others I abandoned them when I heard fiber board horror stories.
So where are these horror stories?
Your argument seems to be "I don't like fiber end caps therefore the Fram Orange sucks." But never the why they suck? Why they are inferior? Why fiber in the filter is bad but suddenly when it's on the end cap, all heck breaks loose?
And I've not used a Fram Orange Can in probably 15 years. Last was probably their FL1A equivalent on a 1986 Mustang with a 2.3L 4 banger. I typically use Motorcrafts.
In the interest of full disclosure, the next filter for the F150's OC is a Fram Ultra.
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Goodness gracious. When you find a Fram argument that is over anything other than those darn endcaps you let me know ok? All I'm saying is that that is the main argument when those who embrace the OCOD butt heads with those who don't.
You STILL don't get it. You stated thispost #3478309)
Quote:
Motor king I'm not sure you can answer this, and you very well may not be able to, but earlier in the thread I believe you had cited the Wix campaign that began the cardboard V. Metal debate. Why hasn't Fram ever just released a budget line like the orange can with metal end caps to appease the consumers that find metal end caps more appealing? Speaking strictly as a consumer, if Fram released such a product, I would go back to orange can. I used one for years, but then like so many others I abandoned them when I heard fiber board horror stories.
So where are these horror stories?
Your argument seems to be "I don't like fiber end caps therefore the Fram Orange sucks." But never the why they suck? Why they are inferior? Why fiber in the filter is bad but suddenly when it's on the end cap, all heck breaks loose?
And I've not used a Fram Orange Can in probably 15 years. Last was probably their FL1A equivalent on a 1986 Mustang with a 2.3L 4 banger. I typically use Motorcrafts.
In the interest of full disclosure, the next filter for the F150's OC is a Fram Ultra.
I think you need to read the above post again, and then realize you are proving my point.
And my post to Motorking follows hand in hand.
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Goodness gracious. When you find a Fram argument that is over anything other than those darn endcaps you let me know ok? All I'm saying is that that is the main argument when those who embrace the OCOD butt heads with those who don't.
You STILL don't get it. You stated this
post #3478309)Quote:
Motor king I'm not sure you can answer this, and you very well may not be able to, but earlier in the thread I believe you had cited the Wix campaign that began the cardboard V. Metal debate. Why hasn't Fram ever just released a budget line like the orange can with metal end caps to appease the consumers that find metal end caps more appealing? Speaking strictly as a consumer, if Fram released such a product, I would go back to orange can. I used one for years, but then like so many others I abandoned them when I heard fiber board horror stories.
So where are these horror stories?
Your argument seems to be "I don't like fiber end caps therefore the Fram Orange sucks." But never the why they suck? Why they are inferior? Why fiber in the filter is bad but suddenly when it's on the end cap, all heck breaks loose?
And I've not used a Fram Orange Can in probably 15 years. Last was probably their FL1A equivalent on a 1986 Mustang with a 2.3L 4 banger. I typically use Motorcrafts.
In the interest of full disclosure, the next filter for the F150's OC is a Fram Ultra.
I think you need to read the above post again, and then realize you are proving my point.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: steveh
When are people going to realize Motormouth is a salesman feeding you biased information. It would be like asking a Ford,Chevy and a Dodge salesman who makes the best trucks. He only comes here to mooch off the free Fram advertising.
Motorking (Jay) is standing up for his company and not calling people names (unlike you, steveh). I may not agree with everything he says but personally I would like a factory rep from every manufacturer here, and not try to chase them off and accuse them of just trying to get free advertising.
Is he biased? I would be disappointed if he wasn't. Does that mean he's not factual? I don't think so. He's brought more facts to the table, and that's always a good thing.
When are people going to realize Motormouth is a salesman feeding you biased information. It would be like asking a Ford,Chevy and a Dodge salesman who makes the best trucks. He only comes here to mooch off the free Fram advertising.
Motorking (Jay) is standing up for his company and not calling people names (unlike you, steveh). I may not agree with everything he says but personally I would like a factory rep from every manufacturer here, and not try to chase them off and accuse them of just trying to get free advertising.
Is he biased? I would be disappointed if he wasn't. Does that mean he's not factual? I don't think so. He's brought more facts to the table, and that's always a good thing.
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: steveh
When are people going to realize Motormouth is a salesman feeding you biased information. It would be like asking a Ford,Chevy and a Dodge salesman who makes the best trucks. He only comes here to mooch off the free Fram advertising.
Motorking (Jay) is standing up for his company and not calling people names (unlike you, steveh). I may not agree with everything he says but personally I would like a factory rep from every manufacturer here, and not try to chase them off and accuse them of just trying to get free advertising.
Is he biased? I would be disappointed if he wasn't. Does that mean he's not factual? I don't think so. He's brought more facts to the table, and that's always a good thing.
+100000000
Originally Posted By: steveh
When are people going to realize Motormouth is a salesman feeding you biased information. It would be like asking a Ford,Chevy and a Dodge salesman who makes the best trucks. He only comes here to mooch off the free Fram advertising.
Motorking (Jay) is standing up for his company and not calling people names (unlike you, steveh). I may not agree with everything he says but personally I would like a factory rep from every manufacturer here, and not try to chase them off and accuse them of just trying to get free advertising.
Is he biased? I would be disappointed if he wasn't. Does that mean he's not factual? I don't think so. He's brought more facts to the table, and that's always a good thing.
+100000000
I work in a TLE so I play with Fram filters all day, I've noticed lately there has been a lot of dirt or maybe left over assembly "shavings" on top of the filter ... on a brand new filter ...
Originally Posted By: jsfalls
I work in a TLE so I play with Fram filters all day, I've noticed lately there has been a lot of dirt or maybe left over assembly "shavings" on top of the filter ... on a brand new filter ...
I'd like to see some pictures of that please.
Also what model of fram filters are we talking about here?
I work in a TLE so I play with Fram filters all day, I've noticed lately there has been a lot of dirt or maybe left over assembly "shavings" on top of the filter ... on a brand new filter ...
I'd like to see some pictures of that please.
Also what model of fram filters are we talking about here?
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Originally Posted By: DSparks
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: steveh
When are people going to realize Motormouth is a salesman feeding you biased information. It would be like asking a Ford,Chevy and a Dodge salesman who makes the best trucks. He only comes here to mooch off the free Fram advertising.
Motorking (Jay) is standing up for his company and not calling people names (unlike you, steveh). I may not agree with everything he says but personally I would like a factory rep from every manufacturer here, and not try to chase them off and accuse them of just trying to get free advertising.
Is he biased? I would be disappointed if he wasn't. Does that mean he's not factual? I don't think so. He's brought more facts to the table, and that's always a good thing.
+100000000
Agreed...
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: steveh
When are people going to realize Motormouth is a salesman feeding you biased information. It would be like asking a Ford,Chevy and a Dodge salesman who makes the best trucks. He only comes here to mooch off the free Fram advertising.
Motorking (Jay) is standing up for his company and not calling people names (unlike you, steveh). I may not agree with everything he says but personally I would like a factory rep from every manufacturer here, and not try to chase them off and accuse them of just trying to get free advertising.
Is he biased? I would be disappointed if he wasn't. Does that mean he's not factual? I don't think so. He's brought more facts to the table, and that's always a good thing.
+100000000
Agreed...
[I'd like to see some pictures of that please.
Also what model of fram filters are we talking about here?]
Don't have any pics, as I try to keep my phone off during work
But mainly the "Asian" core filters (9688 and 3593) and I've noticed quite a few of the extra guard orange cans come with free dirt on top lately, right out of the package.
And no i'm not doing the Fram hate, I use them a lot, just what I have observed lately.
Also what model of fram filters are we talking about here?]
Don't have any pics, as I try to keep my phone off during work
But mainly the "Asian" core filters (9688 and 3593) and I've noticed quite a few of the extra guard orange cans come with free dirt on top lately, right out of the package.
And no i'm not doing the Fram hate, I use them a lot, just what I have observed lately.
There isn't anything wrong with Fram hate. Some people just like different filters, brands etc. the problem is group think and blind acceptance. Unfortunately, we find a lot of those on both sides of this discussion.
Like "I don't like fiber endcaps because despite being made of stiffer material than the actual filter media, despite being more strongly attached to the filter media than metal endcaps, despite all the millions spent in testing them, despite multiple manufacturers specifying them as oem filters, despite billions of miles driven on them, despite all of this, I just don't like them!"
I'm starting to think it's the thinking of metal is manly and fiber board isn't so I think metal is better!
I'm also guessing we have many old timers who don't like change. Unable to recognize engineering something that does the job better and cheaper.
I'm also guessing we have many old timers who don't like change. Unable to recognize engineering something that does the job better and cheaper.
I have a 1962 LeSabre that my grandfather bought new. It's had Frams on it the majority of it's life and still running fine. It's a vertical open end up mounting. I use PH-25 and STP S-25 when I can find them. The only times I've noticed any drainback issues with this model filter was on later Buick engines with the filter angled almost sideways. Fram PH-25 always gave either tappy starts or excessive oil PSI light at startup while the S-25's never did.
I changed one today and had to hold open the valve with a screwdriver to be able to empty the filter. I'd say it worked very well.
I changed one today and had to hold open the valve with a screwdriver to be able to empty the filter. I'd say it worked very well.
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: steveh
When are people going to realize Motormouth is a salesman feeding you biased information. It would be like asking a Ford,Chevy and a Dodge salesman who makes the best trucks. He only comes here to mooch off the free Fram advertising.
Motorking (Jay) is standing up for his company and not calling people names (unlike you, steveh). I may not agree with everything he says but personally I would like a factory rep from every manufacturer here, and not try to chase them off and accuse them of just trying to get free advertising.
Is he biased? I would be disappointed if he wasn't. Does that mean he's not factual? I don't think so. He's brought more facts to the table, and that's always a good thing.
This by far is the best reply here on this subject. Very well done!
Originally Posted By: steveh
When are people going to realize Motormouth is a salesman feeding you biased information. It would be like asking a Ford,Chevy and a Dodge salesman who makes the best trucks. He only comes here to mooch off the free Fram advertising.
Motorking (Jay) is standing up for his company and not calling people names (unlike you, steveh). I may not agree with everything he says but personally I would like a factory rep from every manufacturer here, and not try to chase them off and accuse them of just trying to get free advertising.
Is he biased? I would be disappointed if he wasn't. Does that mean he's not factual? I don't think so. He's brought more facts to the table, and that's always a good thing.
This by far is the best reply here on this subject. Very well done!
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