Smith and Wesson Model 10

[bsmithwins]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: hatt
Limited use(who would pay the extra for range ammo) of +P ammo is perfectly fine in any modern gun. Certainly OK in a medium frame steel S&W. The +P hype is nonsense.


Exactly true. No modern firearm manufacturer would produce a weapon in a given caliber that was outright dangerous with +P ammunition. To do so would amount to legal, financial suicide. Will a steady diet of them loosen up a modern revolver or automatic sooner? Of course. But that type of thinking hold true of any higher velocity load when compared to a lighter one.


The Model 10 started production in 1899 (no, 1899 is not a typo). Without knowing details of the OP's pistol, I'd be adverse in recommending anything other than standard .38 Special ammo for it.

That said, modern JHPs are actually pretty good, and the best are tuned to perform well at the specified velocity. In general, I've had good luck with the Speer Gold Dots.

BSW

 

[hatt]

"Modern" is clearly stated in both the posts you quoted.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: bsmithwins
Without knowing details of the OP's pistol, I'd be adverse in recommending anything other than standard .38 Special ammo for it.


ANY pistol, regardless of it's date of manufacture, that can safely fire modern smokeless powder ammunition, can use +P rated ammunition in the same caliber without danger. Will the gun wear our faster? Yes. Is it "dangerous"? No.

 

[CourierDriver]

give it about 45 seconds when the guy starts talking----interesting on the wad-cutter.

 

[Vuflanovsky]

I have a buddy who owns a 1922 S&W CTG .38 sp revolver which isn't far removed from a Model 10. He only uses Federal HP Nyclad rounds ( PM38A ) that are not +P as this round was recommended by a professional gun dealer and writer who's forgotten more that I'll ever know. It seems the standard advice is to not use high pressure rounds in these old revolvers. I'm assuming these Federals would be interchangeable as rounds for a Model 10.

 

[Robenstein]

S&W has stated to not use +p ammo in Model 10's before a certain year, as the metallurgy has changed. The design can handle limited use, but the materials they made it from cannot up to a certain point in time.

"modern" is tricky as a term...there is no standard for modern. According to gun law "modern" is anything post 1898 while "antique" is pre 1898.

If one wants to use +p in a model 10, it is best to email S&W about it and make sure it is after the approved date.

 

[punisher]

Jumping on the bandwagon. Modern +P .38s are actually on par with regular .38 loads from 40 years ago. Lawyers and lawsuits have made made ammo manufacturers shy about offering actual full power +P loads. Unless it is a very early model, +P ammo should be safe to use SPARINGLY. Went through all of this with my Detective Special (1st gen).

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: punisher
Jumping on the bandwagon. Modern +P .38s are actually on par with regular .38 loads from 40 years ago. Lawyers and lawsuits have made made ammo manufacturers shy about offering actual full power +P loads. Unless it is a very early model, +P ammo should be safe to use SPARINGLY. Went through all of this with my Detective Special (1st gen).


Excellent point! Modern ammunition has been downloaded across the board. You can also see the difference in modern loading manuals when compared to manuals copyrighted in the 60's and 70's.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: bobbob
Checked out a heavy barrel 4 inch 38. It is a steel gun so it can shoot any high powered ammo.


Um, no. Later model 10's are rated for plus P. Earlier guns were not. Metallurgy and manufacturing techniques have changed dramatically over the more than 100 years that this essential pistol has been made.

Originally Posted By: bobbob
It will be a house gun and I do not have to worry about `over-penetration.


Huh? Can you clarify? Meaning you don't think that caliber gun can over penetrate, or do you live alone in the middle of the woods in a house and it would be nearly impossible to hit an innocent bystander accidentally?

Originally Posted By: bobbob
Does anyone have recommendations what to load it with? Thanks


Depends on the barrel length. 2 inch barrel, vs 4 inch barrel, vs 6 inch barrel, will offer different ballistics and characteristics depending on ammunition used.

The gold standard for 2 inch barrel defensive ammo is:
1)Speer Gold Dot 135+p short barrel load JHP
2)Corbon DPX 110+P grain all copper X bullet JHP
3)Remington Golden Saber 125+P JHP

For 4 inch barrel or 6 inch barrel:
1) Remington 158+p "FBI Load" LSWCHP (lead semi-wadcutter hollow point) (product number R38S12) (Winchester and Federal make this load as well but they use a harder lead alloy that doesn't expand as well. Stick with this Remington load)
2)Speer Gold dot 125+p or 135+p JHP
3)Remington Golden Saber 125+P JHP
4)Corbon DPX 110+P grain all copper X bullet
5) Winchester 130+P PDX1 JHP
6) Hornady 125+P XTP JHP

Edit- saw that you said 4 inch barrel. So use the second ammo list.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Falken
If you are worried about "over penetration" don't even consider +P ammo, even if your Smith can handle it.

I looked at a ballistics chart... +P ammo turns the lowly .38 into a wild beast.


Wild beast? Not quite. It's still a fairly anemic round. Plus P helps ensure reliable expansion while using JHP bullets. It doesn't really add all that much power to the round.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: billt460
The .357 Magnum with 125 gr. hollowpoints is rated one of the best handgun stopping loads on Hatcher's scale out there, period. Why mess with anything else? I just don't understand all of this screwing around with all of these backward loaded hollow based wadcutters, and all the rest when you have such a good stopping load sitting right on the shelf of most any well stocked gun shop out there?

If your weapon is chambered in .38 Special, then just load it with the same bullets.


A 125 gr. hollow point pushed to 1450 feet per second out of a .357 magnum will perform drastically different from a .38 special at 925 feet per second. What works in a .357 magnum will not always work in a .38 special.

Originally Posted By: billt460
Today's modern self defense, expanding bullets reliably expand 100% of the time, regardless of the load.


No they don't. 1 7/8 inch barrel or 6 inch barrel? Shooting through heavy winter jacket or just a t-shirt? Plus P or standard pressure? Too many variables to say they "all expand 100% of the time".

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Doog
I had a model 10 for years. Nice pistol. DO NOT USE +P ammo.


I disagree. Assuming your gun was made after 1960ish, absolutely use +P ammo for defensive use. +P has proven to be advantageous with reliable JHP expansion.

 

[Robenstein]

Don't use Remington Golden Sabres, I can tell you that much. When they expand they tend to separate the jacket from the core. And they have a higher than average rate of not expanding at all.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
No they don't. 1 7/8 inch barrel or 6 inch barrel? Shooting through heavy winter jacket or just a t-shirt? Plus P or standard pressure? Too many variables to say they "all expand 100% of the time".


They do if you buy the correct ammunition. Many manufacturers make short barrel loads. You as the consumer have to know what requirements you have, and what to buy to meet those requirements. The stuff is out there. Years ago it wasn't.

 

[Falken]

Bubbatime, Winchester loads .38 ammo as low as 167 ft. lbs., and has a +P round that delivers 278 ft. lbs. of energy.

That is a fair difference from lowest to highest. Both are pretty borderline considering a .22LR out of a rifle is ~135 ft. lbs.

Safest would be a shotgun with #4 shot, but the recoil on a shotgun isn't for everyone, especially women.

My comparison was more "as light of a load as possible" in my comparison against +P in regards to overpenetration in a house.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Don't use Remington Golden Sabres, I can tell you that much. When they expand they tend to separate the jacket from the core. And they have a higher than average rate of not expanding at all.


Remington Golden Saber 125+p is a top 5, possibly a top 3 loading when used in snub nose revolvers. It expands reliably, and penetrates adequately. Hence the reason I recommended it.

Other calibers and from different size barrels it may not be a top performer, but from a snub nose revolver it is a top performer. FYI.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Don't use Remington Golden Sabres, I can tell you that much. When they expand they tend to separate the jacket from the core. And they have a higher than average rate of not expanding at all.


Remington Golden Saber 125+p is a top 5, possibly a top 3 loading when used in snub nose revolvers. It expands reliably, and penetrates adequately. Hence the reason I recommended it.

Other calibers and from different size barrels it may not be a top performer, but from a snub nose revolver it is a top performer. FYI.


The problem is that it is not a bonded bullet, and if you look around you will see many reports of jacket separation with golden sabres. I know they now make a bonded round, but I have never seen them on a shelf. They have good penetration for a snubbie round though. But I would stil rather use gold dots or Federal HST rounds. Much more modern round than the dated golden sabres.