small size (Ea09) filters clogging prematurely

[Gary Allan]

Oh ..you're using a mechanics (short lead) mechanical gauge. I see. This does complicate things a bit.

 

[g20ooh]

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if that were mine I would waste no time in getting hot oil pressure readings .

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Yes! g20ooh gives good advice. There's the likelihood that you've got a very delicate balance between oil light threshold and the viscosity of the fluid. That is, the variable flow produces enough pressure when cold due to viscosity ..and enough when hot due to being easier to pump (in spite of leakage).

This is, currently, a supply problem/anomaly.

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And then along with all that there is the pump "assembly" as it warms ......esp with a dirty filter (did what its supposed to do and still functioning) and a possibly malfunctioning when it feels like it pump pressure relief valve .......I'm thinking sticky ("weak range") as well as maybe a weak spring as a real possibility - just look at those cold measurements as the engine was revved ......whatever - something isn't right about that pump relief valve and or the pump itself .

Running all these tests is very important and will eliminate much but will not cover all of what I'm wondering about here - almost need a good but dirty filter to simulate the whole thing .

Does anyone have the pump specs and the light on specs for this engine ?

I remember more than one where the light (functional electrically) wasn't awarnin' - one in particular at a measured 2-3PSI on a good gauge normal temp - with a "used" filter - even though the light spec was supposed to something like 9-11? Engine "sounded fine" ......yes I know its about volume and pressure and three can and does work in the right situation and the right application - point is the light was inaccurate by much - with a worn pump .

I don't know , its late and I'm tired but the only other thing I can think of is something undesirable started moving thru the system ........

I'm not clear on exactly what the circumstances were here when the light popped the first time - I will reread the thread .

 

[g20ooh]

Hey , are we on filter three here ie Amsoil , BOSCH ,AND AC ?

Also , are you still or did you get situations where measured pressure remained "fixed" at 15PSI as RPM varied - after you changed filters ?

 

[g20ooh]

Ok , one more - now I KNOW I'm fading ....

Odd or nonconcentric shape on a portion of the pressure relief valve bore - the "resistence" and positioning could be correct - but with leakage .
Then again , compounding the leakage in this scenario the positioning could be wrong .....

 

[Donald]

Cold engine but maybe 50 degrees outside, engine at fast idle(1300RPM) and the pressure was maybe 45-50. Rev up the engine to 2500 and pressure goes to 55. So I'd guess the oil pump's relief valve is working at about 55 lbs.

When all of this first started I was using Amsoil ASL oil and Ea09 filter. That is when I got the constant 15 lbs pressure at a cold start. Changed only the filter to Bosch and cold start oil pressures when to normal. It was still cold outside then.

Its now warmer outside. I have also changed the oil to Castrol GTX (still 5W30) and have added Auto-Rx for cleaning phase and am using AC filter (cause its cheap).

 

[mckennaiii]

i'm using EaO 09 on infinity g20. have used two so far with no issues.
i also use these EaO filters with no issues since they first came out.
EaO 13
EaO 57
EaO 42

 

[Donald]

specs for oil pump in this 94 Camry 4 cyl, warm engine

idle - 4.3 lbs minimum
3000 rpm - 36 to 71

 

[Gary Allan]

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Cold engine but maybe 50 degrees outside, engine at fast idle(1300RPM) and the pressure was maybe 45-50. Rev up the engine to 2500 and pressure goes to 55. So I'd guess the oil pump's relief valve is working at about 55 lbs.

When all of this first started I was using Amsoil ASL oil and Ea09 filter. That is when I got the constant 15 lbs pressure at a cold start. Changed only the filter to Bosch and cold start oil pressures when to normal. It was still cold outside then.

Its now warmer outside. I have also changed the oil to Castrol GTX (still 5W30) and have added Auto-Rx for cleaning phase and am using AC filter (cause its cheap).

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In my opinion, your cold idle and cold upper pressure are too close and that peak is too close to your hot peak pressure.

Most engines go to peak pressure right from startup cold (all of mine do). Just as long as the oil is at ambient. The time it takes to come off of peak depends on where it's at temp-wise. You don't peak upon startup and get a good bit into the upper rpm band (for some of us) to peak out pressure cold.

Everything tells me you have an oil pump issue...but,..obviously, it's not a problem at this time (it may never be). Although you appear to be within factory spec's ..that can be misleading. My jeep's spec's are 33-75lbs (IIRC) depending on what volume pump they put in at the time of production. 75 lbs is the limit for all the 4.0 in lines (and the 4 popper too) but you'll never see that limit in any of them (I took a survey on one of the jeep boards). I've speculated that 75lbs is the limit due to the safety limits of the distributor pump drive.

What I'm saying is, although you're within spec's, you don't have any idea where you were before an now.

 

[Donald]

So you are saying I should get to 71 lbs (max in the spec for a warm engine at 3000 RPM) at a cold start?

My objective is to get another 2 years out of this car (get to 200K). Replacing the oil pump is not trivial on a Toyota unless you are in there to also change the timing belt.

I am planning on running Auto-Rx for two clean and rinse cycles. If I look down the oil fill cap, it does look pretty much like carboned sludge. Much to my surprise since I (and my Dad when this was his car) always used synthetic oil.

 

[Gary Allan]

I'm saying that you don't know if it was 71 then and now is less than that ..indicating some degradation.

Wait until the Auto-Rx is done its thing. Your UOA is showing elevated Pb levels, which could be tied to this discovery.

2 years out wouldn't make servicing the front of the engine out of whack in terms of ROI for a paid for vehicle ..but I'm sure you already know that.

 

[g20ooh]

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If the somewhat restricted oil filter was to cause an existing problem with the oil pump or relief spring show up I would have expected it to show up when I first started the engine in the morning as it was very cold (close to 0F) rather than show up 30 minutes later when the engine was fully warmed up.

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Donald ,

One way this can happen is if (in addition to other problems or without) - the oil isn't returning to the pan fast enough .

In practical terms ,if your oil return system from the cylinder head(s) - (BTW this is the 6 right? ) is restricted in any way this could be making the problem or making "other" problems worse .

This can be compounded by undesirable material moving around , - both on top (drain ports) and near the oil pump pick up screen , so while the hot oil flows better in general that doesn't necc. mean that its returning better or is easier for the pump pick up to see and use .

You could also have been experiencing the simple case of just not quite enough return given how the vehicle was operated so that on your normal drive it took about 30 minutes for enough oil to trap away from the pan .

In my mind this would be consistent with some other things happening here concerning your oil pump and esp. your oil pump pressure relief valve . It could also be consistent with what happened after .

When exactly and how were you operating the vehicle when you got the flickering OP light ?

And when all these flickers occurred what was the oil level on the stick ?

BTW , if this is the 6 , looking at the oil fill opening can be very misleading - there is a thin , rough , blackish coating for supposedly sound suppression that "looks" like sludge .

Anyway ,its really good that you jumped quickly to the Auto-Rx and confirmed that you have workable oil pressures while you run forward .

Given the various reports of measured pressure at various times with various oils and filters under various conditions and temperatures its not clear to me that you have done a complete by the book check - I don't have the manual either .


I do agree with Gary here , - in a vaguely uneasy sense thats not at all certain some "sound" at least a little bit low and depending on how you want to say it some sound a little high given the others or at least the spread isn't quite "right" .
Another way to say it is that as a group they don't "seem" to fit together correctly

As the Auto-Rx works this may improve .

So perhaps if not already completed you can at some point do a by the book test of oil pressure -should be at least 5-7 numbers .


( Regardless if they say to do it I'd want to see 5000rpm hot and held for at least 30 seconds or so and I would definitely play with rapid throttle movements to see if you can get the gauge to flicker or hang ) .

A correctly functioning oil "system" with a correctly functioning oil pressure relief assembly (clean) should have very smooth , and seamless "transitions" as you vary rpm . Same idea with constant rpm so whether running up and down or holding steady watch for "step" like operations or flickers - ie anything but smooth and steady .

You may want to do this later - its your call - I would definitely be getting this at least one more time , -like when you are done with all the Auto-Rx .


There are some miscell. that would be nice to know here .
Previous oil history , (maintenance , consumption , more on your UOA histories etc) and some other stuff such as fuel used , PCV and coolant maintenance etc .

I also do not quite understand why you went to filter #3 so quickly - maybe that was to have a clean filter for the Auto-Rx ?

 

[Donald]

The engine is a 4 cyl. I went from a Amsoil filter to a Bosch to see if ONLY changing the filter would make a difference. It certainly seemed to. I went to a Bosch only because it was easy to pick up at Autozone. When I saw that the filter made a difference, I was not sure what the real problem was, but felt it was time to change the oil and felt that even though the Bosch had little mileage on it, it might be somehow contaminated and it was cheap enough to pop in a new filter when I changed the oil.

I am now almost 1500 miles into the Auto-Rx clean phase and will dump the oil and filter and replace with oil for the rinse phase this week.

The oil light has not come on or flickered since I changed to the Bosch filter.

I agree that in a sludged up engine, that the oil might not return quick enough to the pan. I (a guess)could see sludge under the valve cover causing pools of oil and/or other restrictions that might make the oil pump suck air if the oil level was not 100% full. The very first thing that happened to me was that the oil presuure light came on when the oil was with the operating range but was 1/2QT low. I saw that once before last summer when it was also 1/2 QT low.

I use common brands of gas here in NY, such as Hess, Citgo, Stewarts.

The engine for its first 115K miles was run on Mobil 1, probably 7500 intervals. Then the next 50K was Amsoil ASL where I extended the oil changes out to 14K - 15K miles.

 

[Donald]

Amsoil finally got back to me with testing results of the filter in question from an outside company. The filter was constructed properly, and the bypass valve was working, but it did have a lot of dirt in the filter.

So what to conclude. The engine is probably a lot dirtier than I expected running with Amsoil ASL oil. The engine is on its first AutoRx treatment now. Maybe with a very dirty engine, if the bypass opens, not enough oil will flow.