Several 9'mm add a .40?

[AZjeff]

OP asked opinions about spreading the risk of not finding ammo, not which caliber is better.

If you WANT a .40 get it. Otherwise agree with calculate the cost of the .40 you want + all necessary accessories and use the money to stockpile 9mm. Then proceed as if you don't have the stash. Seems easier to have ammo on hand for 1 caliber than worry about which will be scarce.

 

[clinebarger]

According to some post on this thread, Better get a .50 cal or a .44 Mag....LOL.

Get whatever Pistol "FEELS" best to you! Nothing wrong with a .40 Cal, I have a .40 S&W, It is a very good pistol. But sounds if your invested in 9mm ammo, In my opinion...Not much difference between a 9mm & .40 as far as weight, price & stopping power.

The guys I go deer hunting with make fun of my 30/30 Rifle...Saying I NEED a .30-06 or .308.....Which is [censored]! Same applies to pistols, Don't let someone tell you what you need...Once you get above .32 cal....Any pistol that you are a good shot with can remove a threat. A .38 Special snub nose makes a great carry/self defense pistol.

 

[KCJeep]

IMO availability of 9mm beats just about anything. And it's crazy cheap too relatively speaking. Just stash some 9mm now if you are worried about it.

Then get a .40 anyway!

 

[hatt]

Get a Glock 20 and a bunch of barrels. With conversion barrels you can shoot:

10mm
9x25
.40
.357 Sig
.38 Super
9mm

 

[Doc8404]

442
G19
That's it

 

[Doog]

That's why I like my .357 and .38 special +P revolvers. All shoot critical defense .38+P ammo. Easy to stock up.

 

[Robenstein]

The 40 was a solution to a problem that no longer exists. The 9mm of 25 years ago was less than stellar with JHP rounds. New bonded jacket technology has closed the gap between the two.

To get marginally more muzzle energy in a 40 S&W over a standard pressure 9mm, you will have to give up cost per round, magazine capacity, the softer recoil of a 9mm, and often increased wear on your gun(the 40 tends to beat up guns more).

And for the old hardballers who preach nothing but 45acp, I will say that when it comes to barriers, the 9mm has the 45 beat. Sometimes big, heavy, and slow has its downfalls. Consider this, when the FBI first issued Colt 1911 pistols, what caliber did they issue them in? Not in 45acp.

 

[Astro14]

Actually, the 10mm was the solution to the problem that Robenstein brings up.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

In 1986, the FBI lost agents in a gun battle, partly due to the performance of the 9mm that the agents were using.

The response to poor 9mm ballistics and barrier performance was the 10mm. But not everyone could handle the power/recoil of the 10mm. A 180gr JHP at 1300+ FPS is a hot round...and the S&W model 1006 is a big pistol.

So, the FBI asked to lower the pressure and velocity of the 10mm, to about 1000 FPS. But that took a lot less powder, so Smith & Wesson offered a new cartridge: same 10mm bullet, but shorter brass with reduced charge, that allowed a double stack magazine with higher capacity. The .40 S&W was born.

And adopted by the FBI as well as departments across the country.

So, the .40 was the answer to the problem of agents with smaller/weaker hands being unable to handle the 10mm.

But look at the illogic of the opinions on the .40 - it beats up guns from high recoil, but doesn't add any ballistic performance. Huh? I guess Newton's third law was repealed? The higher recoil isn't from greater muzzle energy?!?

A pistol built for the .40 will last just as long as any 9mm pistol. The .40 offers higher muzzle energy than the 9mm, though only a fraction of what the 10mm offered. It's a "tweener" cartridge. Bigger bullet, more energy, more recoil than 9mm but less magazine capacity.

Speer and Federal make some excellent .40 loads, using the same technology and design as their 9mm. The Gold Dot 165gr JHP, for example, is an excellent .40 round. At 1150 FPS, it's got the velocity of 124gr 9mm, but with 30% greater weight and energy. I carry either the Gold Dot 165gr JHP or the Federal 180gr JHP.

And .40 is back on shelves in abundance. I just bought 1000 rounds for $270, including shipping. That's as good as I've been able to get for 9mm.

I've had a H&K USP Compact in .40 at my side for over a decade. Great pistol. Great cartridge. I have complete confidence in the set up. Sure, it's got more muzzle flip than the 9mm version of the same pistol, and three fewer rounds, but each round has 30% greater energy and 20% greater frontal area. That's a good set of trade offs.

If you would like a .40, then buy one.

Forget all the negative opinions. Each caliber represents compromises, and the .40 has a good set of trade offs; characteristics that you can consider when choosing a tool (gun) for a particular task, and a particular shooter. Like I said: I've got six 9mm pistols, they're great. I've got three .40 pistols, also great.

Then, I've got the 10mm...but that's another story...lets just say that big, heavy and slow has its adherents...but I am a fan of big, heavy, and fast...

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
A pistol built for the .40 will last just as long as any 9mm pistol.


This is simply not true. Most all trainers, along with indoor ranges who rent high round count guns, will testify to the fact they've seen far more .40 pistols wear out much faster than the same weapons in 9 MM. Will it matter to the average shooter who overestimates his shooting, like most do? Probably not. But they WILL wear out faster.

 

[Robenstein]

The problem is almost NO guns are built specifically for the 40. They are platforms that were designed for a 9mm and were updated/modified for the 40 S&W offering.

As for Newtonian physics. The bullet weight as WELL as muzzle velocity makes for the recoil (as well as muzzle energy).

As for the 10mm being a solution for the problem, well according to your own story it wasn't. Hence why it was replaced with a smaller round that fit the "FBI spec". The Israelis tried something similar with the now forgotten 41 Action Express as far as a "tweener round"

 

[Astro14]

The 10mm WAS the solution to the problem of poor ballistics and barrier performance back in 1986. That's why the FBI adopted it. They considered dozens of cartridges, and they so wanted the higher performance, and enough magazine capacity, of the new round that they were willing to pay for the development of a new pistol: the 1006.

But the demographics of the Bureau were changing rapidly back in the late 80s and early 90s...and many of the newer agents simply didn't have big enough, or strong enough, hands to handle the 1006. I've put a few rounds through a 1006. It's a big gun, and has considerably more recoil than, say, a 1911. More than a S&W 4506, which is the same frame and size. Newtonian physics doesn't lie...

The cartridge itself, the 10mm, has admirable performance.

But many shooters are simply not up to handling it.

So, the Bureau down sized the 10mm, which created the .40...they changed the spec.

Then they issued new pistols in .40...and now, decades later, they simply went back to the 9mm. Many agents are able to score better with the lower recoil of the 9mm...and improved bullet design makes up for some of the failures that were part of the 1986 shoot out.

But adoption of a new cartridge to compensate for shooter and demographic limitations doesn't change the ballistic performance of the round itself. The 10mm is a good round. I load up 180gr JHP for two legged threats, and 220gr solid cast bullets for four legged threats.

No 9mm loading anywhere would do much good against a large critter, despite the decent performance in ballistic gelatin simulating a man sized threat. And when considering larger individuals, winter clothing, etc...I want the more effective round...

I shoot very well with my H&K. No need to water down the cartridge to make up for shooter performance in my case. Departments have to make choices on caliber that reflect compromises including the range of shooter size, the variation in shooter proficiency, weapon cost, ammunition cost and anticipated threat.

I'm not bound by many of those considerations. So I can optimize the weapon, and caliber, selection for me and my situation.

Back to the OP who is considering a .40 - it may be a good choice for him. He should go shoot a few and make that determination...instead of believing a blanket, and patently untrue, condemnation of a caliber.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Astro14
A pistol built for the .40 will last just as long as any 9mm pistol.


This is simply not true. Most all trainers, along with indoor ranges who rent high round count guns, will testify to the fact they've seen far more .40 pistols wear out much faster than the same weapons in 9 MM. Will it matter to the average shooter who overestimates his shooting, like most do? Probably not. But they WILL wear out faster.


We are saying the same thing: those weapons weren't built for a .40, they were the same weapon built as a 9mm and then modified. A modified 9mm, like the Beretta 96, does wear out quicker than its 9mm progenitor. The .40 has more recoil, more muzzle energy, and the gun, locking mechanism, recoil system, etc. has to absorb that higher energy on every shot.

But the H&K, for example, built from the ground up to handle the .45, .40 and 9mm in the same frame, doesn't have that problem. Further, as you point out, the average shooter will likely never explore the durability limits of their pistol.

Back to the OP's question: should I get one?

Yes.

 

[billt460]

If your heart is set on a .40 caliber, then get a 10 MM. It is the original .40 cal. At least you're getting a high performance weapon. Not some shortened, weakened, lightened version that lacks the punch of the original.

As was said, the .40 S&W is a solution to a problem that never existed. Same with weakened 10 MM "FBI loads". The 10 MM was designed and built to achieve Magnum performance in an auto pistol. This it accomplishes well, in it's original loadings. You gain nothing with a .40 S&W you cannot achieve with a 9 MM or a .45 ACP. Except for higher pressure and accelerated wear that comes from it. If you're willing to pay that price, you might just as well have the performance that goes along with it.

 

[hatt]

Goodness, who cares. Any of these rounds are great. And you're not going to wear out quality modern guns.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Goodness, who cares. Any of these rounds are great. And you're not going to wear out quality modern guns.


If you shoot them enough you will. There is a ceiling on the round count for most guns. You are eventually going to wear out the major components. But the average joe wont pump 30k of 9mm through his Beretta 92 in his lifetime.

Only competition shooters tend to wear out guns. My friend is one, and he is at 6 figures on the round count on his Gen 1 Glock 17. He has not worn out the slide or frame, but has worn out barrels.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Also: I've found that the "same gun" feels quite a bit different in .40 vs. 9mm. I shot a friend's full size M&P 40 and didn't like it. I don't know if it was the recoil, or the timing of it, but I got a lot of trigger bite/ringing in my finger. The recoil, overall, was fine, but it was uncomfortable to actually fire due to this trigger bite.

But, over time, I convinced myself that an M&P 9 would shoot differently. So much so that I actually bought one. And it's one sweet shooter to me. I doubt my accuracy is any different on an M&P 9 vs. 40, but my range time is certainly more comfortable. It shoots about the same as my Shield 9 -- it has a firm-but-pleasant recoil impulse that pushes the gun straight back into my hand.

So, in addition to different pistol types and brands, make sure to actually shoot a 40 caliber in the model you like, and don't assume that an M&P 40 will shoot the same as an M&P 9, or that a Glock 23 will shoot the same as a Glock 19, etc. They may look and feel the same in the hand, but they can feel different when firing the round.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: hatt
Goodness, who cares. Any of these rounds are great. And you're not going to wear out quality modern guns.


If you shoot them enough you will. There is a ceiling on the round count for most guns. You are eventually going to wear out the major components. But the average joe wont pump 30k of 9mm through his Beretta 92 in his lifetime.

Only competition shooters tend to wear out guns. My friend is one, and he is at 6 figures on the round count on his Gen 1 Glock 17. He has not worn out the slide or frame, but has worn out barrels.
If you're asking BITOG what gun to buy you're not going to wear one out. It's not something worth considering. This goes right along the ammo cost issue that's so overblown. Sure 9mm is cheaper than whatever, but if you don't shoot a lot it's not a big deal. If you do shoot a lot you've already figured out if you need cheaper ammo and made arrangements by getting a reloader or buying a cheaper round. Quality guns are relatively cheap. And they tend to hold their value pretty well. Changing calibers isn't a huge deal some people make it out to be. I always recommend 9mm but if someone wants something else go for it. My carry auto is .357 Sig.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Get a Glock 20 and a bunch of barrels. With conversion barrels you can shoot:

10mm
9x25
.40
.357 Sig
.38 Super
9mm



Good idea

If you do choose a .40, I suggest a S&W SD .40.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

If you do choose a .40, I suggest a S&W SD .40.

I am a fan of S&W and I have an older Sigma. Haven't shot this generation. Sigmas of previous have a horrendous long hard trigger pull. Looks like they have it down to 8+ pounds.
Probably kicks like a mule.

 

[CT8]

I have 2 Springfield XD Tacticals one in 40 and one in 9mm. Shooting the 40 is like shooting 45 acp ball except the recoil is a slap instead of a push. The 9mm is a pleasure to shoot all day. If I had all my purchases over the last 50 years of pistol buying to do over they would all be 9mm. except the revolvers would be 38 sp. unless I hunted with them but then I would use a rifle.