Same engine different oil - not just temperature

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Shannow

Shannow

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Mate just bought a Nissan ute with the Nissan YD25DDTi, a direct injection 2.5litre 4 cyl, common rail, intercooled, cooled EGR engine.

About 20hp more than my 2003 3.0 TDi, and more torque, down lower.

Oil specs in the Nissan Manual

If fitted with particulate filter
5W-30, low ash ACEA C-3, HTHS 3.5

If no particulate filter, no better than CF-4, meets DH-1, and:
Any temp 5W-30
-4F (-20C), 10W-30, 10W-40, 10W-50
5F (-15C), 15W-40, 15W-50
14F (-10C) 20W-40, 20W-50

Mobil's recs

With DPF, 5W-30 ESP (Emissions systems protection)
http://www.mobil.com/Australia-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_ESP_Formula_5W-30.aspx

Without DPF
Quote:
Model fitted with diesel particulate filter (DPF) shown. If not fitted with DPF, use MOBIL DELVAC 1 ESP 5W-40, MOBIL DELVAC MX ESP 15W-40, MOBIL DELVAC MX 15W-40, MOBIL 1 0W-40, MOBIL SUPER 3000 X2 5W-40, MOBIL FORMULA X2 5W-40, MOBIL SUPER 2000 X2 10W-40 or MOBIL FORMULA S2 10W-40.


Interestingly many of the no DPF mobil recommendations go against Nissan's "No CG-4 and onwards" recommendations.
 
You certainly are not going to find a decent oil that is only CF4 unless you get one of the European ACEA E4 oils which are usually CF rated (without the "-4").
Otherwise, I would follow Mobil's recommendations and get an oil that is at least "CI4+" rated such as any of the list Mobil oils or http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/truck-oils/diesel_gs
or Delo 400 of either variety (LE or non-LE).
Or else a European ACEA E7 oil, most of them are CI4 rated which is important since the vehicle has cooled EGR which pumps a lot of junk (soot and combustion acids) back into the cylinders where some of it gets into the oil, via the rings.
DO NOT use the Mobil ESP Formula 5W30. It is too thin for Australia and very low on TBN. If by chance the vehicle has DPF use an ACEA E6 oil like http://www.penriteoil.com.au/pis_pdfs/Diesel SP MAR 2010.pdf
Just my advice.

Charlie
 
I note that only the first 3 oils on the list carry the CI4 rating. To me the cooled EGR is the most important factor, and the soot carrying and acid neutralizing capacity of either CI4 or ACEA E6, E7 or E9 oils is a good idea. Along with an xW40 viscosity for your climate.
If the "no newer than CF4" has been read correctly (not "no older than CF4"?) I can only surmise they want lower ash, since organometallic additves went up slightly from CF4 to CG4 to CH4 to CI4. That can easily be accomplished by using CJ4, E9 or E6 oils, all of which are ~1.0% ash.
If anyone has any insight into Nissan's intent, please chime in.


Charlie
 
m37charlie,
if you scout around this section, Nissan state expressly that they do not want an oil rated any better than CF-4 in their diesels.

They reckon that all the soot being dispersed messes with the valve train or somesuch.

I argues with them on mine that I'd stick to the Euro section of the manual (ACEA ratings), and was told clearly SAE ratings in Oz, and no better than CF-4.
 
Originally Posted By: 40Deluxe
Can you post photo of your Ute,i wish they built them in USA


The Navara is available in the States (I saw them when I was there), but I forget what they are called.

You only get the V-6.

Had an informal "race" with a V-6 up a steep hill on Sat...TDi for the win.
 
You ought to have whoever at Nissan read this
http://www.ioqnz.co.nz/uploads/Shell05-Cook.pdf
especially pp.13-15
I don't think it's possible for an oil to only meet CF4 on the one hand and DHD-1 (It is DH-1; not DHD-1?!?!?) on the other hand.
I could be wrong...but..
the soot goes in the oil no matter what. The higher rated oils disperse it into smaller, less damaging clumps.

Charlie
 
Last edited:
Well, if you want a good diesel oil with a low API rating use what I'm using:
Delvac 1 SHC 5W40, except you can't get it in Australia any more:
1.8% ash, ~4000ppm Ca, ~1200ppm Zn, TBN 16. Apparently Mercedes truck engines like it (especially without EGR). It is "only" API CF.

Charlie
 
Hi,
shannow - As usual the real meaning of the Manufacturer's intent gets lost in the Specs.

Many Japanese and Euro engines have suffered badly from bore glazing caused by the use of "superior" (higher API Category) engine lubricants. This is especially so during the running in process - which can take up to 60k kms or so. Engine deposits in the ring land area are also a concern when non conforming lubricanst are used

CF is the latest of the CF ratings (CF, CF2 and CF4) and is the one most used in light high speed diesel engines throughout the world. This is especially so in Europe

Of the Mobil products listed I suggest M1 0W-40 or Mobil Super 3000 X2 5W-40 as the best choices in the non DPF application

Some lubricants handle soot significantly better than others - especially at high concentrations. I have always found the Delvac range to be the very best at this - it has been this way for several decades!

High TBN lubricants are not always a good idea when they are not called for. It is usual for high TBN lubricants to be higher in SA which can cause excessive ring and bore wear
 
Doug is right, take his advice. After all M1 0W40 is on their list. My D1 SHC is specifically made for European truck engines, especially MB and MAN.

Charlie
 
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

CF is the latest of the CF ratings (CF, CF2 and CF4) and is the one most used in light high speed diesel engines throughout the world. This is especially so in Europe


This confuses me Doug. CF is an obsolete spec from 1994. What modern Euro diesel is spec'd with a CF oil and not a manufacturer specific one (VAG, MB, BMW, Ford), ACEA, or modern API (CI-4/CI-4+/CJ-4)?

Consider M1 0w40 is SM/CF, but the *real* diesel specs are the Euro diesel ones (B3/B4, 505.00, 229.5, LL01).
 
Hi,
Bob - CF is in current use. Lubricanst are still being tested against that standard (M1 0W-40, Castrol Edge 0W-40 as an example). ACEA quality standards are integrated with that as required

Some engine makers have Approvals systems some dont. Some also have a fail safe situation of encompassing standards that have meaning in the intended Market

Ask the average OZ bloke what API is - he might know! Ask him what ACEA is and he would say something like Australian Commonwealth Engineering Association or something.........
 
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
High TBN lubricants are not always a good idea when they are not called for. It is usual for high TBN lubricants to be higher in SA which can cause excessive ring and bore wear


Doug, does this occur because the polar detergents compete with ZDDP for binding sites on metal surfaces?
And the high TBN oils essentially have a high detergent/ZDDP ratio?

Charlie
 
Hi,
Charlie - The causes still remain something of a mystery. Glazing and Polishing have been around for a long time (at least since the 1950s - Dodge sixes and etc) but they (each in their own right) started to manifest themselves again with improved engine finishing techniques. Volvo experienced this in the 1970s and introduced their own oil category "VDS" and Isuzu, Kubota and other experienced similar problems with low load constant speed engines on Reefers etc

It is a chemical reaction with fuel/oil and in some cases the honing and ring pack/land positioning and etc. FMs also played a role as did the premature use of synthetic lubricants

This is why one should be very careful about draining the FF lubricant before the time/distance nominated by the engine's maker

MAN (and some Japanese makers) had really serious problems here in OZ and I researched this for them within a number of Fleets. It was always when a Workshop Manager used a late US CG,CH spec lubricant when a CD or CF was specified. It was typically done to standarise lubricants. In almost every case it was combined with light loaded running during the breakin period

I won't go into the potential cures but the simplest way is simply to use the lubricant specified and to work the engine when it is new

There are also zinc free high TBN lubricants of course

And yes CF will be discontinued from December 30th 2010. I expect we will see the ACEA specs substituted or something similar
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Bob - CF is in current use. Lubricanst are still being tested against that standard (M1 0W-40, Castrol Edge 0W-40 as an example). ACEA quality standards are integrated with that as required

Some engine makers have Approvals systems some dont. Some also have a fail safe situation of encompassing standards that have meaning in the intended Market

Ask the average OZ bloke what API is - he might know! Ask him what ACEA is and he would say something like Australian Commonwealth Engineering Association or something.........


What modern diesel allows or is spec'd the use of CF though?

Or has CF has been updated since 1994? And is not only for off-road IDI diesels?
 
Bob,
Caltex makes a range of diesel engine oils that don't go to the higher diesel engine qualifications for specific applications.

Quick check found this (am on profiled web ATM, and everything is slow, need to get to work)
http://www.caltex.com.au/ProductsAndServices/Pages/ProductDescription.aspx?ID=1731

They make
* Delo CXJ specifically for Japanese diesels;
* Delo XLD and SHP specifically for Euros.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Bob,
Caltex makes a range of diesel engine oils that don't go to the higher diesel engine qualifications for specific applications.

Quick check found this (am on profiled web ATM, and everything is slow, need to get to work)
http://www.caltex.com.au/ProductsAndServices/Pages/ProductDescription.aspx?ID=1731

They make
* Delo CXJ specifically for Japanese diesels;
* Delo XLD and SHP specifically for Euros.


That oil is CF-4 though. It's my understanding that CF and CF-4 are vastly different specifications. CF-4 is allowed in my (now) old TDI, CF is not.
 
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