Rotella t4 causing clutch to drag?

[jimbocarrey]

Guess you missed where he said the bike is actually ridable now, when it was not with the Rotella. You think it was just a "coincidence" that the clutch operation changed when he went to the Valvoline? Use some logic, lol.

Well here's an update, after riding it two nights ago for a good hour I let it sit and tried it again last night and the clutch is still dragging pretty badly when it's cold. So it's working when it's warmed up but not when cold so looks like I'm going to have to take apart the clutch and do some of the stuff described in this thread. Thanks for all your input and I will let you know how the clutch job goes

 

[ZeeOSix]

If it was my bike, I'd ride it some more before taking the clutch apart to see if some more use changes anything. Just let it warm-up enough so it doesn't drag as much. If it doesn't improve, then dig in to it.

Does this bike have a clutch actuation mechanism that can be reassembled such that the full clutch disengagement is not happening? I've seen that happen on some bikes. If you have a manual, might want to check.

 

[Overfill]

Water makes cellulose swell

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Thanks for all your input and I will let you know how the clutch job goes

You're welcome... its handy to have a new clutch cover gasket in case the old one tears during open case surgery... also ditch the Val and go back to the Ro...

 

[ZeeOSix]

Well here's an update, after riding it two nights ago for a good hour I let it sit and tried it again last night and the clutch is still dragging pretty badly when it's cold. So it's working when it's warmed up but not when cold ...

Is it sill killing the engine when cold, or has that improved at all?

No reason to not use the Valvoline. It worked well in both my Hayabusa and XSR900.

 

[KrisZ]

Does this bike have a pushrod going though the sprocket or a more modern lever at the clutch cover? In any case, I would check for free play there, not just the clutch lever at the bars. There should be some, but no more than 2-3mm of play.

 

[Jay Freddy]

Guess you missed where he said the bike is actually ridable now, when it was not with the Rotella. You think it was just a "coincidence" that the clutch operation changed when he went to the Valvoline? Use some logic, lol.

I think the takeaway here is that it wasn't working with a 15w40, and now it's not really working with a 10w40 either.

It has little or nothing to do with the brands of the oils used... It's about viscosity.

I suspect Rotella T6 5w40 would flow even smoother than the Valvoline 10w40, but it still wouldn't fix a problem caused by curved or swollen clutch plates.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I think the takeaway here is that it wasn't working with a 15w40, and now it's not really working with a 10w40 either.

It has little or nothing to do with the brands of the oils used... It's about viscosity.

I suspect Rotella T6 5w40 would flow even smoother than the Valvoline 10w40, but it still wouldn't fix a problem caused by curved or swollen clutch plates.

Agree that warped and/or swollen clutch plates will cause a clutch to show these symptoms. And yes, the thicker and more viscous the oil, the more drag coupling there will be between the clutch plates when the clutch is disengaged, even if the distance between plates is proper. The viscous coupling will obviously be magnified if the clutch disengagement distances is decreased, and/or the oil is colder/more viscous.

But ... what's strange, based on the first post, the clutch worked fine even when the oil was cold before the first oil change. Even if there was a 5W in the engine, which is still relatively thick when cold, it seems there would still would be noticeably excessive drag with that oil too if the issue was mechanical like warped and/or swollen plates, or lack of full engagement movement - just like your last sentience eludes to.

The way it sounds, he simply changed the oil and rode it awhile, which seemed like it worked OK with the new oil, but then the next time the bike was used after sitting, the clutch was noticeably excessively dragging. Like a night and day difference. What changes the clutch operation that drastically from it just sitting for a few days without being touched when the oil was simply changed?

 

[jimbocarrey]

Is it sill killing the engine when cold, or has that improved at all?

No reason to not use the Valvoline. It worked well in both my Hayabusa and XSR900.

It's still killing it while cold, I rode again last night and was in a hurry so I just got the bike rolling before I put it in first so it wouldn't stall out lol. Worked like a charm.

 

[jimbocarrey]

Ib

Does this bike have a pushrod going though the sprocket or a more modern lever at the clutch cover? In any case, I would check for free play there, not just the clutch lever at the bars. There should be some, but no more than 2-3mm of play.

Checked that, it's definitely moving the lever down at the clutch cover properly

 

[jimbocarrey]

I think the takeaway here is that it wasn't working with a 15w40, and now it's not really working with a 10w40 either.

It has little or nothing to do with the brands of the oils used... It's about viscosity.

I suspect Rotella T6 5w40 would flow even smoother than the Valvoline 10w40, but it still wouldn't fix a problem caused by curved or swollen clutch plates.

I think you're right on the money. Mustve been some thin crap in there when I bought it

 

[jimbocarrey]

Agree that warped and/or swollen clutch plates will cause a clutch to show these symptoms. And yes, the thicker and more viscous the oil, the more drag coupling there will be between the clutch plates when the clutch is disengaged, even if the distance between plates is proper. The viscous coupling will obviously be magnified if the clutch disengagement distances is decreased, and/or the oil is colder/more viscous.

But ... what's strange, based on the first post, the clutch worked fine even when the oil was cold before the first oil change. Even if there was a 5W in the engine, which is still relatively thick when cold, it seems there would still would be noticeably excessive drag with that oil too if the issue was mechanical like warped and/or swollen plates, or lack of full engagement movement - just like your last sentience eludes to.

The way it sounds, he simply changed the oil and rode it awhile, which seemed like it worked OK with the new oil, but then the next time the bike was used after sitting, the clutch was noticeably excessively dragging. Like a night and day difference. What changes the clutch operation that drastically from it just sitting for a few days without being touched when the oil was simply changed?

Well when I rode it after I first changed the oil, I let it warm up completely before I rode. And I'm wondering if the changing seasons made a difference since I'm up north, the temperature outside during cold starts now is quite a bit cooler than when I was riding it before changing the oil.
Idk it does seem odd to me too but I'm a newbie at wet clutches. The fact that now it's dragging so much when cold but then disengages like it used to just from warming up a bit makes me think that it's a pretty fine line between dragging and not dragging (or at least barely dragging).

I'm gonna keep riding it every day but if it hasn't improved after a week or so of that I'm gonna go into the clutch and see if there's warping of the steel plates, and I'll put a caliper on the friction plates and get some actual scientific data instead of just having my subjective riding impressions to go off of

 

[ZeeOSix]

Checked that, it's definitely moving the lever down at the clutch cover properly.

So it sounds like the clutch cable pulls on an actuation lever that's connected to a shaft that goes down into the clutch over ... a typical clutch actuation design on many bikes.

But here is something to check. If you back off the clutch cable adjuster so that the clutch cable is really set loose, how much "slop" is in the actuation lever? There shouldn't be much. In other words, with the clutch cable loose, if you grab the actuation lever with your fingers and check for how much free play is in the lever in the direction when it gets pulled by the cable, does it seem like a lot or just a little? If there is a lot, even though you have adjusted the clutch cable to take up the excessive free play in actuation lever, it still may not actuate the clutch far enough to fully disengage it. If the previous owner had the clutch cover off and messed with the clutch, it's possible it was not put back together correctly. I've seen this happen on some bikes before. Check your Clymer service manual to see if there is any tricky things involved when reinstalling the clutch cover associated with the actuation lever.

 

[jimbocarrey]

So it sounds like the clutch cable pulls on an actuation lever that's connected to a shaft that goes down into the clutch over ... a typical clutch actuation design on many bikes.

But here is something to check. If you back off the clutch cable adjuster so that the clutch cable is really set loose, how much "slop" is in the actuation lever? There shouldn't be much. In other words, with the clutch cable loose, if you grab the actuation lever with your fingers and check for how much free play is in the lever in the direction when it gets pulled by the cable, does it seem like a lot or just a little? If there is a lot, even though you have adjusted the clutch cable to take up the excessive free play in actuation lever, it still may not actuate the clutch far enough to fully disengage it. If the previous owner had the clutch cover off and messed with the clutch, it's possible it was not put back together correctly. I've seen this happen on some bikes before. Check your Clymer service manual to see if there is any tricky things involved when reinstalling the clutch cover associated with the actuation lever.

Sorry for the late response, we had a bad cold snap for most of the last week. I did ride yesterday though and the clutch isn't getting any better. It's usable when warm still just have to really let it warm up.

Anyway I did what you said and took videos, the first video is with the clutch cable properly adjusted and the second is with the cable loosened up so you can see how much play there is in the lever down at the clutch cover. Let me know what you think about the amount of play.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Anyway I did what you said and took videos, the first video is with the clutch cable properly adjusted and the second is with the cable loosened up so you can see how much play there is in the lever down at the clutch cover. Let me know what you think about the amount of play.

Based on what I see in the videos, it looks like the clutch lever is just moving the lever at the clutch cover through most of its free play, so you're getting little actual clutch disengagement by the time the clutch lever at the handlebar bottoms out. The clutch lever moves too far before the mechanism wants to start disengaging the clutch.

That lever looks to be on a splined shaft that goes down into the clutch cover. Usually there are marks on the lever and shaft to properly align them, but I can't really tell in the video if there are marks. Check your manual to see if it shows where that lever is suppose to be positioned on the shaft. But to me it looks like the lever is 1 or 2 splines off from proper alignment.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Did a zoom in and screen shot on your video. I think I see the lever alignment "dot" on the shaft. I marked it with a red dot - see if that's it. Bet your manual shows that the gap in the lever (my red line) is suppose to be lined up with the dot. If so, there will be more total throw in the mechanism when the clutch cable and lever free play is adjusted correctly.

Hint - that bolt on the lever needs to probably come all the way out (not just loosened) in order to pull the lever off the splined shaft because there is a cut-out in the shaft for the bolt.

 

[jimbocarrey]

Did a zoom in and screen shot on your video. I think I see the lever alignment "dot" on the shaft. I marked it with a red dot - see if that's it. Bet your manual shows that the gap in the lever (my red line) is suppose to be lined up with the dot. If so, there will be more total throw in the mechanism when the clutch cable and lever free play is adjusted correctly.

View attachment 186667

You know what I think you're exactly right! Here's another pic and you can see the dot is not aligned with the gap.
I scoured the manual and can't find anywhere it mentions where that dot should be aligned on that part (they call it the clutch release arm)..... But! They do mention that the brake pedal uses the exact same spline-pinch bolt setup and that, when reinstalling it, "note that the punch mark on the shafts is aligned with the split opening on the brake pedal".
No doubt the clutch release arm should be aligned the same way.
Tonight I will align it with the gap and see what happens. If that's all it was I'm gonna feel pretty dumb

 

[FowVay]

I worked in several bike shops as a kid and it wasn't unusual for bikes to have sticking clutch plates right out of the crate. If the bikes had been boxed for an extended period of time the friction plates just stuck themselves to the metal plates. I'd just put the bikes up on their centerstand (was a thing back in the '80's) and hold the rear brake, pull in the clutch, and engage first gear. That was usually all that was required to free the plates. For severe instances where a bike had sat for years then a basket removal and a soak in alcohol would resolve the problem. I have had oils that seemed to cause this problem more than others, namely certain Bel-Ray products, but generally the issue is from the clutch not being used for a very long time. *internet photo provided

 

[ZeeOSix]

No doubt the clutch release arm should be aligned the same way.
Tonight I will align it with the gap and see what happens.

I'm wondering if the pinch bolt came loose and the actuation lever slipped on the splines. Or someone has worked on the bike and didn't get the lever aligned correctly.

Inspect the splines when the lever is off the shaft. Once the lever is aligned and secured properly, then adjust to the proper free play of the clutch cable and lever at the handlebar. The clutch should then fully disengage.

 

[jimbocarrey]

I'm wondering if the pinch bolt came loose and the actuation lever slipped on the splines. Or someone has worked on the bike and didn't get the lever aligned correctly.

Inspect the splines when the lever is off the shaft. Once the lever is aligned and secured properly, then adjust to the proper free play of the clutch cable and lever at the handlebar. The clutch should then fully disengage.

Ok. So I worked on the bike tonight... I don't think that spot on the shaft is actually a dot, I think it's just a discoloration from corrosion or something. I can't see any indentation when looking at it close up. Whereas the brake pedal has a clear, deep stamped indentation. I took some more better quality pics of it and of the brake pedal for compsrison.

Anyway I removed the release arm and rotated it 1 tooth further on the spline, even that made it super tight with zero play, no way you could move it 2 teeth. In short, it made no difference, the clutch is still dragging. After I rotated it I realized that just adjusting the cable accomplishes the same thing because even after rotating the release arm still moves the same amount when you pull the clutch lever, if all the slack is adjusted out of the cable.

So it looks like I'll be tearing into the clutch. It was a good thought though I wish it was that simple!