Purolator core support holes are REALLY small

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
You wont believe how much the OCD forum posters will lam-bast my lack of attention or empathy.
Not really; there are a fair number of us who really do not care one way or the other--put me in that category.

 

[cptbarkey]

Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
You wont believe how much the OCD forum posters will lam-bast my lack of attention or empathy.
Not really; there are a fair number of us who really do not care one way or the other--put me in that category.


you cared enough to reply. very heart warming. try a purolator classic next time on that shiny truck.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
You wont believe how much the OCD forum posters will lam-bast my lack of attention or empathy.
Not really; there are a fair number of us who really do not care one way or the other--put me in that category.
you cared enough to reply. very heart warming. try a purolator classic next time on that shiny truck.
Try shilling Purolator elsewhere; I would not use a Purolator on your truck, much less mine.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
bmwpower ..With all due respect i see in your profile with your 130 posts that you are a student... Very cool.. Sit back in "Your armchair" and learn.. Some of the posters here know more than you could imagine about what is being posted on this forum.


Well, with all due respect…. just because "you" have a lot of posts doesn't mean your any more qualified. That said, I don't portray myself as an expert either. I'm hear to learn as well and have some knowledge myself as an engineer. I know there are some very knowledge members, but there's also a lot who simply posts non-sense, thread titles with "death" or simply beating a dead-horse. I have no dog in this race. I realize this is an "oil" enthusiast site… but some of the stuff, you have to agree is borderline insanity, OCD to the MAX and not based on any actual data.

My criticism earlier, was simply the massive amount of posts stating, "these opening lot small, has to be restrictive, would not use, prefer big round holes, etc…" At the same time, this isn't the first filter to use this "method" of perforating the center tube. I never stated it was or was not restrictive, simply looking at it doesn't tell the whole tale.

I stated, has anyone actually measured the openings and quantity? Seems a few posts later, someone actually cut one open and did. Great, but that also doesn't tell the whole story with respect to pressure delta as the opening size and shape and flow changes (direction) have impacts on delta. My suggestion was a pressure gauge setup… however likely that won't happen anytime soon.

So beyond that, its mostly arm-chair engineering… seven pages looking/talking about small holes. I'm sure being a Purolator filter is also "feeding" the "hysteria". I BET if it was any other filter… some people would be saying, hmmm those are some smart engineers for going with this new design, must be an improvement.

Okay, either you use them or not. Get on with life.

I'll be honest, I'm inquisitive and like learning and see how things function, etc… The only vehicle I have that uses spin-on filter is my two motorcycles. All my cars take cartridge filters and I've never had any issues (Hengst, Mahle, Mann, etc…) or my father and his customers. I have no brand loyalty, I've used Fram TG, Bosch, Pureones, Mobil 1.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
Don't you guys think the engineers at Puro thought about all this??
Why do you think that you know more about their filters than they do??
Amazing


Because armchair engineering is what 95% of this forum is about... How does this filter look online in a pic? Those pleats aren't even, must be bad. Those holes look restrictive, prefer good 'ol big round ones, can of "death", etc....


listen bud, only 130 posts and here you are judging these armchair forum generals? come back after 11,000 posts and then you might earn some respect around here.

i just threw a nice clean L22500 purolator classic on my friends 2012 Impala about 15 minutes ago. I also (gasp) threw in non dexos oil, even .5 quart of leftover 10w30 SL castrol that i used to lubricate head bolts but the quart container is cracked at the top and my OCD just cant take it anymore. You wont believe how much the OCD forum posters will lam-bast my lack of attention or empathy.

haha, I know my OCD gets me at times, but sometimes I have to tell myself I only have 1 life and a finite amount of time. I can't let little things bother me, because in the end it doens't matter. Will my car/motorcycle/OPE/boat/whatever last any longer or run any better for as long as I actually keep it vs. changing oil and filter regularly without too much thought. Is PUP, QDUD, M1, Super-Tech gonna matter as long as it change semi-regularly?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
I stated, has anyone actually measured the openings and quantity? Seems a few posts later, someone actually cut one open and did. Great, but that also doesn't tell the whole story with respect to pressure delta as the opening size and shape and flow changes (direction) have impacts on delta. My suggestion was a pressure gauge setup… however likely that won't happen anytime soon.


On probably every filter you can find, the base plate inlet holes and also the center tube holes (or slits or whatever) total area will always be somewhat larger in total area than the oil hole passage on the filter's mounting spud on the engine.

There is nobody here with any kind of sophisticated delta-p measuring test bench. The filter manufacturers have such tools, and you'd be super lucky to have one of them provide you data on flow restriction. This is as good as it gets. And I'd say this is a pretty typical flow vs delta-p curve for most "good flowing" oil filters. The majority of the flow restriction is in the media, not the base plate inlet holes or center tube holes if their area is greater than the mounting spud oil passage.

Flow vs Delta-P Super Thread

Now the whole center tube with slits design discussion. As the rough numbers show, IF the slits are shaped right and relatively open (vs the very closed example that was shown), then the calculation say there shouldn't be any flow area problems. But I did find it somewhat disturbing to see two filters of the same manufacturer have vastly different slit punch out. I would be nervous running the one with paper thickness slit openings.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
I stated, has anyone actually measured the openings and quantity? Seems a few posts later, someone actually cut one open and did. Great, but that also doesn't tell the whole story with respect to pressure delta as the opening size and shape and flow changes (direction) have impacts on delta. My suggestion was a pressure gauge setup… however likely that won't happen anytime soon.


On probably every filter you can find, the base plate inlet holes and also the center tube holes (or slits or whatever) total area will always be somewhat larger in total area than the oil hole passage on the filter's mounting spud on the engine.

There is nobody here with any kind of sophisticated delta-p measuring test bench. The filter manufacturers have such tools, and you'd super lucky to have one of them provide you data on flow restriction. This is as good as it gets. And I'd say this is a pretty typical flow vs delta-p curve for most "good flowing" oil filters. The majority of the flow restriction is in the media, not the base plate inlet holes or center tube holes if their area is greater than the mounting spud oil passage.

Flow vs Delta-P Super Thread

Now the whole center tube with slits design discussion. As the rough numbers show, IF the slits are shaped right and relatively open (vs the very closed example that was shown), then the calculation say there shouldn't be any flow area problems. But I did find it somewhat disturbing to see two filters of the same manufacturer have vastly different slit punch out. I would be nervous running the one with paper thickness slit openings.


Thank you, thats the kind of response that adds value and not merely speculation. I thought one of the photos was looking thru outlet… so it might be hard to see just how open the slits are due to how small they are, viewpoint, lighting and media behind them.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
I thought one of the photos was looking thru outlet… so it might be hard to see just how open the slits are due to how small they are, viewpoint, lighting and media behind them.


IMO, pretty similar angles looking though the base plate. Side-by-side, it seems to me the slit openings are quite different. Zoom in and get a better look.

Side-by-Side Shots

 

[SirTanon]

Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
I stated, has anyone actually measured the openings and quantity? Seems a few posts later, someone actually cut one open and did. Great, but that also doesn't tell the whole story with respect to pressure delta as the opening size and shape and flow changes (direction) have impacts on delta. My suggestion was a pressure gauge setup… however likely that won't happen anytime soon.


I've been thinking about this. You're asking if these smaller inner holes would increase the pressure differential across them because they present a restriction?

Tell me something - Considering the 'holes' in the filter media are small enough to capture 20 micron-sized particles, do you really think the (approximately) 3mm x 0.5mm holes in the center tube are going to present a bigger restriction?

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ They could if their total flow area was way undersized. If the slits are formed correctly and open like they should be, then no problem seen. If the slits are barely open because of a manufacturing glitch - which has been seen before on slitted center tubes - then who knows.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Originally Posted By: SirTanon
Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
I stated, has anyone actually measured the openings and quantity? Seems a few posts later, someone actually cut one open and did. Great, but that also doesn't tell the whole story with respect to pressure delta as the opening size and shape and flow changes (direction) have impacts on delta. My suggestion was a pressure gauge setup… however likely that won't happen anytime soon.


I've been thinking about this. You're asking if these smaller inner holes would increase the pressure differential across them because they present a restriction?

Tell me something - Considering the 'holes' in the filter media are small enough to capture 20 micron-sized particles, do you really think the (approximately) 3mm x 0.5mm holes in the center tube are going to present a bigger restriction?


Honestly my gut says no... in the scheme of things. Hence my prior posts about all the clamoring saying they look restrictive. I could be wrong, hence the follow up questions about sizing, count and any delta p data. I could be wrong, but based on some engine flow rates I've seen for oil, it's moving very slowly and thus "restrictions" offer less of a restriction than one might think.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
I could be wrong, but based on some engine flow rates I've seen for oil, it's moving very slowly and thus "restrictions" offer less of a restriction than one might think.


Some high performance engines can pump 10~12 GPM at high RPM. That's like circulating a 5 qt sump through every 8 seconds. I wouldn't call that oil "moving slowly".

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
I could be wrong, but based on some engine flow rates I've seen for oil, it's moving very slowly and thus "restrictions" offer less of a restriction than one might think.


Some high performance engines can pump 10~12 GPM at high RPM. That's like circulating a 5 qt sump through every 8 seconds. I wouldn't call that oil "moving slowly".


True. However "most" vehicles are less than that and dependent on RPM as well (that's if there fixed-displacement, which many are). Seems new cars are moving towards variable-displacement pumps so lower overall pressure and flow.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Then again, with a "high-performance" car, I don't know if I'd be running Purolator… but who knows, maybe the filter spec'd for a car like that is different in design. Unless this is an across the board change by Purolator.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
I could be wrong, but based on some engine flow rates I've seen for oil, it's moving very slowly and thus "restrictions" offer less of a restriction than one might think.


Some high performance engines can pump 10~12 GPM at high RPM. That's like circulating a 5 qt sump through every 8 seconds. I wouldn't call that oil "moving slowly".


True. However "most" vehicles are less than that and dependent on RPM as well (that's if there fixed-displacement, which many are). Seems new cars are moving towards variable-displacement pumps so lower overall pressure and flow.


Lots of high performance cars these days still have pretty high output oil pumps. Subaru turbos put out something like 14 GPM at redline. There have been many threads about the high oil flow in Subaru's, and many people concerned about the filter's high bypass setting (around 23 PSI) because of it.

And yes, it all depends on the engine RPM if a positive displacement oil pump is used, but who's gonna cruise around at half the redline all day because they think they have a restrictive oil filter on the car. If an oil filter can't take full redline RPM without going into bypass (due to huge filter delta-p), then they should even be making them for everyday cars on the road. Plenty of people drive their high performance cars hard on the street.

This whole thread was about someone who was concerned that using a PureOne under high RPM conditions would push the filter to bypass. Apparently Purolator was so interested in this that they actually ran a bench test to prove it wouldn't.

PureOne Flow vs Delta-P Data

 

[JellyBeanDriver]

FWIW, the filters I just bought with the slits that are about a paper width or so (5 mil?) wide are going to sit on the shelf with all the other filters I have - I don't need to use them right away.

A few months from now I'll go back into my local auto parts store and look and see if the slits are different in the later batches. If they are wider, I'll buy the 'new' ones and return smaller slit units.

Personally I don't believe that Purolator would tailor the slit opening by application so I don't know why there exists narrow and wide slit variations.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: JellyBeanDriver
Personally I don't believe that Purolator would tailor the slit opening by application so I don't know why there exists narrow and wide slit variations.


I think it's just because their manufacturing isn't nailed down very well for consistency. I agree, it wouldn't make sense for there to be different sized slits on different filter models.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
I could be wrong, but based on some engine flow rates I've seen for oil, it's moving very slowly and thus "restrictions" offer less of a restriction than one might think.


Some high performance engines can pump 10~12 GPM at high RPM. That's like circulating a 5 qt sump through every 8 seconds. I wouldn't call that oil "moving slowly".


True. However "most" vehicles are less than that and dependent on RPM as well (that's if there fixed-displacement, which many are). Seems new cars are moving towards variable-displacement pumps so lower overall pressure and flow.


Lots of high performance cars these days still have pretty high output oil pumps. Subaru turbos put out something like 14 GPM at redline. There have been many threads about the high oil flow in Subaru's, and many people concerned about the filter's high bypass setting (around 23 PSI) because of it.

And yes, it all depends on the engine RPM if a positive displacement oil pump is used, but who's gonna cruise around at half the redline all day because they think they have a restrictive oil filter on the car. If an oil filter can't take full redline RPM without going into bypass (due to huge filter delta-p), then they should even be making them for everyday cars on the road. Plenty of people drive their high performance cars hard on the street.

This whole thread was about someone who was concerned that using a PureOne under high RPM conditions would push the filter to bypass. Apparently Purolator was so interested in this that they actually ran a bench test to prove it wouldn't.

PureOne Flow vs Delta-P Data


I've seen that thread, but it's "old"... does the Purolator they tested back then apply? I thought this was a recent change (punched slit center tube)?

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

If they could repeat that test with the "new" design that'd put things to rest.....

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ That flow test by Purolator shows that the delta-p across the whole filter is pretty small even at very high flow rates when the oil is fully hot. As mentioned before, the media itself makes up most of the delta-p. The base inlet holes, ADBV and center tube holes only make up a small fraction of the total.

I thought it was already shown that the total flow area of all the slits was way more than the total area of the inlet holes and the filter mounting spud. That is of course, if the slits are punched open like they are supposed to be and not just a hair slit opening.