For what it's worth, a bunch of us went out for dinner when my dad was back from Iraq. On the way home I ended up at a redlight with my dad driving my mother's Bonneville with the 3800. I was in the TL. My dad looked over and I knew it was on. The Bonneville destroyed my TL until about 50mph. I prefer the low end torque of the 3800 any day over the TL's high revving powerband.
Power needs vs. wants
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Originally Posted By: BuickGN
I prefer the low end torque of the 3800 any day over the TL's high revving powerband.
Your TL has the 3.2-liter V6, right? I test-drove one a while back and was also unimpressed with the low-end torque of this engine. You would think that an engine with such volume would have some respectable (although not mind-blowing) torque down low, alas that is not the case. Not a whole lot happens until you go far past 3k rpm. Then again, my 3-liter I6 isn't all that impressive below 3k rpm either.
Do you have a picture of the torque curve for this engine, either the factory one or the one from your dyno run?
I prefer the low end torque of the 3800 any day over the TL's high revving powerband.
Your TL has the 3.2-liter V6, right? I test-drove one a while back and was also unimpressed with the low-end torque of this engine. You would think that an engine with such volume would have some respectable (although not mind-blowing) torque down low, alas that is not the case. Not a whole lot happens until you go far past 3k rpm. Then again, my 3-liter I6 isn't all that impressive below 3k rpm either.
Do you have a picture of the torque curve for this engine, either the factory one or the one from your dyno run?
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
I prefer the low end torque of the 3800 any day over the TL's high revving powerband.
Your TL has the 3.2-liter V6, right? I test-drove one a while back and was also unimpressed with the low-end torque of this engine. You would think that an engine with such volume would have some respectable (although not mind-blowing) torque down low, alas that is not the case. Not a whole lot happens until you go far past 3k rpm. Then again, my 3-liter I6 isn't all that impressive below 3k rpm either.
Do you have a picture of the torque curve for this engine, either the factory one or the one from your dyno run?
I do and I can scan it tomorrow at work. My dyno started from 3K and it's more or less flat from there but it still only made 183lbs to the wheels. I can tell that the drive by wire throttle is programmed to try and make it feel like it has more torque than it does. It pulled hard to 7,100rpm on the dyno but I would trade some of that for more low end. You would think that a decent sized V6 with vtec would make a little more down low.
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
I prefer the low end torque of the 3800 any day over the TL's high revving powerband.
Your TL has the 3.2-liter V6, right? I test-drove one a while back and was also unimpressed with the low-end torque of this engine. You would think that an engine with such volume would have some respectable (although not mind-blowing) torque down low, alas that is not the case. Not a whole lot happens until you go far past 3k rpm. Then again, my 3-liter I6 isn't all that impressive below 3k rpm either.
Do you have a picture of the torque curve for this engine, either the factory one or the one from your dyno run?
I do and I can scan it tomorrow at work. My dyno started from 3K and it's more or less flat from there but it still only made 183lbs to the wheels. I can tell that the drive by wire throttle is programmed to try and make it feel like it has more torque than it does. It pulled hard to 7,100rpm on the dyno but I would trade some of that for more low end. You would think that a decent sized V6 with vtec would make a little more down low.
JHZR2
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You really dont need more than about 120 HP, even in a larger car. And dont give me the garbage about people driving fast or what roads that are used. I regularly drive on some of the most densely congested, fast roads in the densest-populated state in the country.
The reality is that while swift, safe passing is something that is important, butis only something that for most, must only be used on occasion, especially if folowing the rules of the road. And, just because a car doenst get up and go that fast, it will still get up and go if driven properly. You must know the limits of the vehicle, of course, to be safe, but it is still doable.
I agree with the torqueless wonder aspect that Buick pointed out. Our BMW and integra have the same specs, but the BMW pputs out more torqe lower, and as such is more pleasant to drive.
That said, given the expense of operating vehicles these days (i.e. $3 gasoline), the economical solution is really important.
So long as you need a motgage to buy your home, or need to take out a loan to buy your car, you arent rich enough for $3 gasoline, let alone $1.50 gasoline.
Ive always found that 2-2.5L is more than adequate for most anything short of towing.
JMH
The reality is that while swift, safe passing is something that is important, butis only something that for most, must only be used on occasion, especially if folowing the rules of the road. And, just because a car doenst get up and go that fast, it will still get up and go if driven properly. You must know the limits of the vehicle, of course, to be safe, but it is still doable.
I agree with the torqueless wonder aspect that Buick pointed out. Our BMW and integra have the same specs, but the BMW pputs out more torqe lower, and as such is more pleasant to drive.
That said, given the expense of operating vehicles these days (i.e. $3 gasoline), the economical solution is really important.
So long as you need a motgage to buy your home, or need to take out a loan to buy your car, you arent rich enough for $3 gasoline, let alone $1.50 gasoline.
Ive always found that 2-2.5L is more than adequate for most anything short of towing.
JMH
If you never push the accelerator past 1/2 throttle then your engine has too much power for you.
Originally Posted By: tom slick
If you never push the accelerator past 1/2 throttle then your engine has too much power for you.
As much as I complain about my TL, it rarely sees 1/2 pedal. Still, it would be nice if I needed to change lanes and had to accelerate lightly I didn't have to drop two gears to do so.
If you never push the accelerator past 1/2 throttle then your engine has too much power for you.
As much as I complain about my TL, it rarely sees 1/2 pedal. Still, it would be nice if I needed to change lanes and had to accelerate lightly I didn't have to drop two gears to do so.
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
Has anyone else noticed that people really don't need nearly the amount of power than they demand?
Yes. I wonder if this isn't something rooted back in time. Think about the family cars of the late 50's and into the 70's. They all came with a V8 standard, usually something in that 5.0 liter range. To get a car with a V6 you usually had to trade down to get it, either in vehicle selection or special order it.
Along with this V8 only option came the mindset that anything less was underpowered and at that time, it was. I know individuals who insist on having a V8 in their family car. Fast forward 30 years and you now have vehicles with 4 cylinder engines producing as much hp as a post-emission regulation V8s. And getting better fuel economy.
The way manufacturers are going, they are achieving more hp and more mpg all with the same amount of displacement. The market is pushing for it, so they continue to develop it. I don't see the need for 280 hp in a family vehicle, but as long as people push for it, the manufacturers will continue to develop and offer it.
Clark
Has anyone else noticed that people really don't need nearly the amount of power than they demand?
Yes. I wonder if this isn't something rooted back in time. Think about the family cars of the late 50's and into the 70's. They all came with a V8 standard, usually something in that 5.0 liter range. To get a car with a V6 you usually had to trade down to get it, either in vehicle selection or special order it.
Along with this V8 only option came the mindset that anything less was underpowered and at that time, it was. I know individuals who insist on having a V8 in their family car. Fast forward 30 years and you now have vehicles with 4 cylinder engines producing as much hp as a post-emission regulation V8s. And getting better fuel economy.
The way manufacturers are going, they are achieving more hp and more mpg all with the same amount of displacement. The market is pushing for it, so they continue to develop it. I don't see the need for 280 hp in a family vehicle, but as long as people push for it, the manufacturers will continue to develop and offer it.
Clark
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: M1Accord
i just went to court friday for burned headlight violation (98 bucks ticket) and there were people locked up for doing 90 over 65 on I95. the sad thing is these people are from out of state locked up against their wills. i also believe the fine is about 2000 bucks and up to 12 months in prison for first offense.
I used to live in NOVA. The way it was explained to me, you get to spend 1 day in jail for every mile over 90 mph. So, if you get caught doing 100 mph - 10 days in jail. Not sure if it's accurate, but I did know a buddy who spent 2 weeks in prison for speeding in VA.
Oh yeah, and radar detectors are illegal there of course.
yup. they passed (i read in the paper) very recently making failure to use turn signal a violation of up to 1000 bucks fine.
i got my first speedy there and the copper actually did a donut right on a 2 lane road to pull me over. i was the slowest driver (aka easiest sheep) of the commuter pack, of course. ever since, i got smarter. and i was doing 64 on a 55 on a commutter road that has morning traffic going one way and evening traffic going the other way. the total fine and came out to be close to 200 bucks, on top of half of my day gone.
so for around here, you don't need anything more than 120 for a car weighting around 2500 lbs.
Originally Posted By: M1Accord
i just went to court friday for burned headlight violation (98 bucks ticket) and there were people locked up for doing 90 over 65 on I95. the sad thing is these people are from out of state locked up against their wills. i also believe the fine is about 2000 bucks and up to 12 months in prison for first offense.
I used to live in NOVA. The way it was explained to me, you get to spend 1 day in jail for every mile over 90 mph. So, if you get caught doing 100 mph - 10 days in jail. Not sure if it's accurate, but I did know a buddy who spent 2 weeks in prison for speeding in VA.
Oh yeah, and radar detectors are illegal there of course.
yup. they passed (i read in the paper) very recently making failure to use turn signal a violation of up to 1000 bucks fine.
i got my first speedy there and the copper actually did a donut right on a 2 lane road to pull me over. i was the slowest driver (aka easiest sheep) of the commuter pack, of course. ever since, i got smarter. and i was doing 64 on a 55 on a commutter road that has morning traffic going one way and evening traffic going the other way. the total fine and came out to be close to 200 bucks, on top of half of my day gone.
so for around here, you don't need anything more than 120 for a car weighting around 2500 lbs.
When I took this picture I was not using nearly all the throttle but it took more power than a mix-master engine can achieve.
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=15087990&selected=
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=15087990&selected=
Oh man don't get me started
Haven't read all the posts yet, but can't wait to post mine
This morning I drove my Mazda Protege 2L *ALONE* to work. The only time I actually used the extra power provided by 2L engine is for some aggresive passing just becuase everyone in that part of town is a jerk and cuts me off all the time, so I joined them. Frankly I try not to do it, but heck when you have a 2L engine why not. Now when I drive my smaller Civic 1.5L I never do that for the obvious reason.
Which gets me to the point. Commuting to work alone or with my wife, small Civic 1.5L engine is perfectly capable and sufficient. What is more, keeps me out of trouble as I don't have enough power for stupid stunts like passing and cutting off people. At the end I use anout half as much gas.
Now don't get me wrong. If you are hauling s.... by all means get a hemi pickup or whatever. We have almost 2 feet of snow this weekend, so there are days when I must driver my SUV. Even then my Honda CRV has a modest 2L engine, just enough.
In general for commuting around town anything above 2L is just waste. I was visiting in Europe and found 1.3L engines common on full size cars.
All that being said, we do have a design problem here in North America. First, cars are too big for our needs. Sure some people commute 1-2 hours to work, so would like some extra comfort. Most have a 30 min to 1 hour commute. Then we have too many power-locks/windows/steering/breaks/.... Too many car systems bleeding away power from acutally pushing car forward. Put those 2 together and you discover that you need 2.3L and 2.5L etc.
We need to rationalize car design to something more practical. You live in Florida then you *HAVE* to have AC. Or you live in Canada you *HAVE* to have good heating and such. Other extras like power steering and breaks - either get rid of them or switch to a more efficient design that only draws as much power as needed when needed.
So yes, power wants are out of control while needs are much more modest. They will converge over time as gasoline price keeps increasing.
Haven't read all the posts yet, but can't wait to post mine
This morning I drove my Mazda Protege 2L *ALONE* to work. The only time I actually used the extra power provided by 2L engine is for some aggresive passing just becuase everyone in that part of town is a jerk and cuts me off all the time, so I joined them. Frankly I try not to do it, but heck when you have a 2L engine why not. Now when I drive my smaller Civic 1.5L I never do that for the obvious reason.
Which gets me to the point. Commuting to work alone or with my wife, small Civic 1.5L engine is perfectly capable and sufficient. What is more, keeps me out of trouble as I don't have enough power for stupid stunts like passing and cutting off people. At the end I use anout half as much gas.
Now don't get me wrong. If you are hauling s.... by all means get a hemi pickup or whatever. We have almost 2 feet of snow this weekend, so there are days when I must driver my SUV. Even then my Honda CRV has a modest 2L engine, just enough.
In general for commuting around town anything above 2L is just waste. I was visiting in Europe and found 1.3L engines common on full size cars.
All that being said, we do have a design problem here in North America. First, cars are too big for our needs. Sure some people commute 1-2 hours to work, so would like some extra comfort. Most have a 30 min to 1 hour commute. Then we have too many power-locks/windows/steering/breaks/.... Too many car systems bleeding away power from acutally pushing car forward. Put those 2 together and you discover that you need 2.3L and 2.5L etc.
We need to rationalize car design to something more practical. You live in Florida then you *HAVE* to have AC. Or you live in Canada you *HAVE* to have good heating and such. Other extras like power steering and breaks - either get rid of them or switch to a more efficient design that only draws as much power as needed when needed.
So yes, power wants are out of control while needs are much more modest. They will converge over time as gasoline price keeps increasing.
i just test drove a bimmer 535 w/ 300 bhp on tap. it was sweet and i realize why some people want it. but i am not sure if there should be a severe usuage tax for those vehicle as that is a way of punishing a small sector of society who works hard to earn the money to drive those car. now, i think people should carpool or take a public transportation but unless you live in a very populated city with good infrastructure, that won't happen. i used to take metro/subway to work while on assignment and i gave up after 3 tries. the dc and beltway riders are the most horrible humans on earth. they smell, they're loud, they're rude, they like to pick pocket, and they won't move out of the way to let you off at your stop. and it took much longerto ride the metro versus waking up early and drive myself. i turned down that position even though they offered a 20k increase and took a gig 2 miles from the house, so my comute is 5 min versus 1.5-3 hrs.
i did feel bad driving the car by myself when i could easily pack 3 more amigos with me. and when i look around, people with hummer, escalade, f250, excursion, bimmer, mercedes are all doing it and doing it with cars of horrible gas mileage. so i seriously think we americans are seting up our own doomday. our greed, selfishness, and sense of entitlement will destroy us. it is one thing to like cars and enjoy driving and working on cars, but it is a totally different when people just want a biggest and [censored] thing out there when they really only know how to operate the gas pedal and pump and don't know a clue where the dipstick is. i support carpooling whereever possible.
i did feel bad driving the car by myself when i could easily pack 3 more amigos with me. and when i look around, people with hummer, escalade, f250, excursion, bimmer, mercedes are all doing it and doing it with cars of horrible gas mileage. so i seriously think we americans are seting up our own doomday. our greed, selfishness, and sense of entitlement will destroy us. it is one thing to like cars and enjoy driving and working on cars, but it is a totally different when people just want a biggest and [censored] thing out there when they really only know how to operate the gas pedal and pump and don't know a clue where the dipstick is. i support carpooling whereever possible.
My wife and I have no regrets purchasing a 22MPG average 2005 Legacy GT wagon(250HP). Her prior anemic (100HP) 96 Civic only managed 28MPG. She test drove the 2005 Legacy wagon with non-turbo engine and returned in 5 mins stating it was weaker or as weak as the Civic.
My wife still smiles and says I love this car to this day. I don't think she has ever taken the tach north of 4000RPM in it however torque peak is 250 ft-lbs @ 3600 RPM.
We don't think much on the fuel(premium) however only drive about 12k/year between two vehicles.
My wife still smiles and says I love this car to this day. I don't think she has ever taken the tach north of 4000RPM in it however torque peak is 250 ft-lbs @ 3600 RPM.
We don't think much on the fuel(premium) however only drive about 12k/year between two vehicles.
My 2006 Mazdaspeed 6 offers a tremendous gas mileage return for pumping out 270 horses when needed. Turbo 4s are the wave of the future for those who want good power to go along with their respectable mpg.
Nobody NEEDS 270 hp but when it comes time to make a run down Dallas's famous 20 yard-long on-ramps, it's nice to have, unless you're one of those people who doesn't mind entering the highway at 40mph causing hundreds of people to slam on their brakes as you merge. My 2.0 Mazda 3 had to work its a** off to be going 70mph by the end of most of the ramps in Plano, and like it or not, that's the best way to merge...by going the same speed as everyone else.
What does infuriate me is to see oldsters driving V6 Camrys at 50mph in the left lane. If you're going to pay for that much power, please have enough consideration for drivers around you to use it. I suspect if any of them ever introduced carpet to the back of their gas pedals, the drivers would suffer heart attacks and cobwebs would fly out their tailpipes. Those are the folks that should be buying 2.4 liter Camrys.
Nobody NEEDS 270 hp but when it comes time to make a run down Dallas's famous 20 yard-long on-ramps, it's nice to have, unless you're one of those people who doesn't mind entering the highway at 40mph causing hundreds of people to slam on their brakes as you merge. My 2.0 Mazda 3 had to work its a** off to be going 70mph by the end of most of the ramps in Plano, and like it or not, that's the best way to merge...by going the same speed as everyone else.
What does infuriate me is to see oldsters driving V6 Camrys at 50mph in the left lane. If you're going to pay for that much power, please have enough consideration for drivers around you to use it. I suspect if any of them ever introduced carpet to the back of their gas pedals, the drivers would suffer heart attacks and cobwebs would fly out their tailpipes. Those are the folks that should be buying 2.4 liter Camrys.
stop being mean on old drivers. the last time i check, they have much less accident than us.
to be honest, a good driver tend to stay being good driver past 70s. it's the bad one that tend to linger around and screw up our street at 60s.
i respect old drivers and on long trips, i tend to stay at behind them with 6-10 seconds between us. they will tend to brake early and give you all the warning/indication what they would do and that is music to my ears. i hate hispanic drivers as they tend to merge without looking and signal. i almost got into in with a mexican driver in a colorful 80s honda civic that decided to merge from right to middle lane without looking. i was half way in the middle lane from my merge from the left and they decide to merge. my car was in front and they were in my blind stop. luckily, i have a very large aftermarket rear view mirrow and see them. i pull back into my lane and sped up to re-enter middle lane.
since my state allow people to take driver test in spanish, i don't expect much from our amigos.
to be honest, a good driver tend to stay being good driver past 70s. it's the bad one that tend to linger around and screw up our street at 60s.
i respect old drivers and on long trips, i tend to stay at behind them with 6-10 seconds between us. they will tend to brake early and give you all the warning/indication what they would do and that is music to my ears. i hate hispanic drivers as they tend to merge without looking and signal. i almost got into in with a mexican driver in a colorful 80s honda civic that decided to merge from right to middle lane without looking. i was half way in the middle lane from my merge from the left and they decide to merge. my car was in front and they were in my blind stop. luckily, i have a very large aftermarket rear view mirrow and see them. i pull back into my lane and sped up to re-enter middle lane.
since my state allow people to take driver test in spanish, i don't expect much from our amigos.
Stop being mean on hispanic drivers, they no can help it.
125 hp v6... Still get to 65 in 10.5 secs while dargging excess of 3500 pounds, not too outdated I guess. HP data looks totally useless without its four digit amigo accompanying.
Anyone remembers the specs in the late 70's to eraly 80's for a short while as "steady 55mph with XX hp"?
Anyone remembers the specs in the late 70's to eraly 80's for a short while as "steady 55mph with XX hp"?
Originally Posted By: M1Accord
stop being mean on old drivers. the last time i check, they have much less accident than us.
Try some other sources. Accident rate per million miles driven starts to rise sharply at about age 65. By 75 it's worse than 20 year olds.
http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/1007/2/83596.0001.001.pdf
Reaction time, cognitive and vison are worse and sense of entitlement is up in old drivers.
A high percentage of old geezers accidents are caused by pulling out in front of someone at an intersection. 55 alive and other geezer driving courses stress intersection behavior because of that. I took a 55 alive driving course, the percentage of self centered old geezers and geezettes in that class who basically stated that the world should adapt to them was amazing.
stop being mean on old drivers. the last time i check, they have much less accident than us.
Try some other sources. Accident rate per million miles driven starts to rise sharply at about age 65. By 75 it's worse than 20 year olds.
http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/1007/2/83596.0001.001.pdf
Reaction time, cognitive and vison are worse and sense of entitlement is up in old drivers.
A high percentage of old geezers accidents are caused by pulling out in front of someone at an intersection. 55 alive and other geezer driving courses stress intersection behavior because of that. I took a 55 alive driving course, the percentage of self centered old geezers and geezettes in that class who basically stated that the world should adapt to them was amazing.
Good link, XS650.
That's certainly consistent with what I've observed in the local papers. Automotive deaths around here are usually the result of either an unbelted driver/occupant involved in a rollover on a rural road, or an elderly driver crossing or turning left through a high speed intersection. I blame the latter for the proliferation of all those stupid left-turn lights where you have to wait for 5 minutes so a light can give you permission to cross!
That's certainly consistent with what I've observed in the local papers. Automotive deaths around here are usually the result of either an unbelted driver/occupant involved in a rollover on a rural road, or an elderly driver crossing or turning left through a high speed intersection. I blame the latter for the proliferation of all those stupid left-turn lights where you have to wait for 5 minutes so a light can give you permission to cross!
Rated power/torque/enngine-size doesn't concern me.
In America, I want a 0 to 60 time in the 6 second to 7 second range for merging onto the freeway...while giving me at least 25 mpg for my 60 mile daily commute.
In America, I want a 0 to 60 time in the 6 second to 7 second range for merging onto the freeway...while giving me at least 25 mpg for my 60 mile daily commute.
Drove a 1985 Golf Diesel for six years.
Think it made 57 horsepower or something like that. Quite peppy in the 0-10 mph range.
It had more power than I needed.
Think it made 57 horsepower or something like that. Quite peppy in the 0-10 mph range.
It had more power than I needed.
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