Plan to change oil and not the oil filter?

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Originally Posted By: skyship
I think you will find if you read some of the posts before that confirm what I already knew, that a moderatly dirty oil filter does a better job than a clean one, that I am not cutting any corners.


Absolutely. When one is keeping the same filter for another OCI, there certainly are some negatives, but they do have to be considered correctly. I'm kind of old school in wanting to get as much old oil out as I can by changing the filter. In my old F-150, with a sump capacity of around five litres, changing the filter isn't a bad idea, since the FL1A probably holds close to a litre itself. On the G37, with a similar sump capacity, the filter holds less than a pint, so obviously that's not a huge issue. Then, on a car like the RX-8, which holds a couple litres in the cooler that doesn't drain, you're not getting everything out anyhow.
 
I agree, Garak. It's always a matter of "it depends ..."


I can recall some conversations over on another site where guys were ADAMANT about letting the oil drip-drip-drip from the oil pan, to get out every last drop of dirty oil from their Dmax engine. There INSIST that it's "best" to do this. Oddly - they don't seem to realize that the oil pan has a "hump" in the front of it, and that there is perhaps a quart that sits in that section ahead of the hump that never gets drained at OCI. But in their mind, they must drip-drip-drip every last drop out.


FCIs have to be looked at with a fair eye to overall performance in regard to the OCI as well. If your OCIs are 3k miles, and you want to FCI every 6k miles, I see no reason not to do so. But if you grossly extend the OCI, then the FCI might even invert, where the FCI would be needed more frequently than the OCI.

The BEST indicator of when to change oil/filter is the UOA. What are the wear metals telling you???????


As always, it depends.
YMMV.
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
FCIs have to be looked at with a fair eye to overall performance in regard to the OCI as well. If your OCIs are 3k miles, and you want to FCI every 6k miles, I see no reason not to do so. But if you grossly extend the OCI, then the FCI might even invert, where the FCI would be needed more frequently than the OCI.


That's true, and very important. Under a conservative OCI, if one wants to get all the oil out, it might be prudent to switch the filter if it's large, like the 51515. However, that filter would likely have much more dirty holding capacity than than 51365 and its ilk. So, on an extended OCI, one might have to pay more attention to the filter if it's much smaller to begin with.

And the "hump" issue in oil pans is well taken. I've never understood the desire to let every last drop drain out. I've seen far too many variations in oil pans and oil circuit geometry to worry about that kind of thing. My Town Car had two drain plugs. Removing the second one only resulted in another hole going "drip, drip, drip," so I didn't even bother removing both anymore.

When the flow is gone and I can put the plug back in without getting my hands messy, I'm happy.
 
The drip, drip idea is silly, next thing some fanatic will be taking the sump off to clean it every oil change. My oil only change might leave 10% of the old oil behind, but as the UOA is good and the oil was designed for 20K use I am not concerned. My main interest will be in the improved oil filter performance possible in the second phase.
I did alternate oil only changes in my last car, as I changed oil twice as often as recommended due to severe cycle use and only used a good quality dino oil, as that engine had no turbo, BUT it was in near perfect condition when I sold it.


Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
FCIs have to be looked at with a fair eye to overall performance in regard to the OCI as well. If your OCIs are 3k miles, and you want to FCI every 6k miles, I see no reason not to do so. But if you grossly extend the OCI, then the FCI might even invert, where the FCI would be needed more frequently than the OCI.


That's true, and very important. Under a conservative OCI, if one wants to get all the oil out, it might be prudent to switch the filter if it's large, like the 51515. However, that filter would likely have much more dirty holding capacity than than 51365 and its ilk. So, on an extended OCI, one might have to pay more attention to the filter if it's much smaller to begin with.

And the "hump" issue in oil pans is well taken. I've never understood the desire to let every last drop drain out. I've seen far too many variations in oil pans and oil circuit geometry to worry about that kind of thing. My Town Car had two drain plugs. Removing the second one only resulted in another hole going "drip, drip, drip," so I didn't even bother removing both anymore.

When the flow is gone and I can put the plug back in without getting my hands messy, I'm happy.
 
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Back to the original question-TADA. The fact is that filters become more efficient the longer they are used up to a point. This information came from testing preformed by Honda, VW, Volvo and Ford??
I will do as the manufacture recommends. If the factory testing recommends 2X oil change per filter change, then that is what I will do.
 
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I can't say I've always swapped my filter per oil change. I've been doing 5,000 mile oil changes with 10,000 mile filter changes. I've inspected the oil filter every time I changed my oil and concluded I don't even being to use the filter to its full extent. This came from cutting the filter and half and inspecting. This is for the Volvo.
 
"IF" the filter is easy to get to, and you are set on running it between oil changes.
Why not remove, drain and put it back on? Jus' think'n outloud.
oldhp
 
Draining the oil filter and re-fitting is only sensible with a drop in oil filter. You would need to change the gasket and not doing so is asking for an oil leak.
Re-fitting a used oil filter is a no go procedure for a spin on filter.
 
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It costs a marginal 40E just to change the oil filter?
Or is the difference really 20E?
What is this filter made out of?
Sintered gold?
Also, if you're in Blighty, why are you quoting prices in Euros?
Anyway, based upon your reported TBN after 10k km, you could probably safely go to 15K km for oil and filter.
This would be less expensive than your plan of doing the oil only every 10K km and the oil and filter at 20K km.
 
If 2 OCI is recommended practice and the filters are pricey, go for it if that is what you really want to do.

In all other applications, especially small gas cars, I change the filter with every OCI.

My logic is if you have a tear in the media, or the valves aren't operating properly and stuck shut, or the ADBV doesn't close well, the filter gets scrapped with each OCI.

If you have a bad filter and you do 2 OCIs each filter, you are piling on the wear if the filter isn't doing it's job, but I would guess that would be an extremely rare chance.

The downside of a UOA is if they come back clean, great. If you get a horrible one... Well, the engine took on some wear and the UOA costed you money.

Personally, I'd just spend the extra 20$ and change the filter at the same time. Engines are expensive...
 
If you read my previous posts you will find I am not exceeding the Volvo recommended oil filter change interval every 20K km, I am just changing oil every 10K km due to severe service considerations (Multiple stop starts, towing and driver abuse).

Air and oil filters only work well when they are fairly dirty and most of the debris that passes through a filter does so within the first 10 to 20% of the life of the new filter. New air or oil filters are bad news in engine wear terms, BUT you must not block an oil filter and the Volvo oil filter I use is rated at 30,000 km and there has never been a problem caused by a blocked oil filter (Less than 30K km) reported to Volvo in Germany. Blackstones have also confirmed that the recommended oil filter change period (20K) looks correct from my UOA results.

I am most interested in what other turbo diesel folks have found in UOA results when they use an oil filter correctly, so far the results I have read all show an improvement, although my own results will be interesting as nearly 20% of the old oil will be left behind in comparison with 5% from a normal oil & filter change (Never remove a filter to drain it unless the seal can be changed), BUT my UOA results at 10K km are good and the oil was designed to last 20K, so I am not too concerned by the old oil factor.

Engines are expensive and I would suggest you read up on filtration efficiency as many people have been brainwashed by reading final (Dirty filter) figures for the efficiency of an air or oil filter and not the vital initial new filter figues, which are not easy to find, but test results have shown are a horror story for air or oil filters sold in Germany that were not supplied by the vehicle manufacturer (EU or US cars only), Mann (Ford supplier) or Bosche (Only the ones sold in Germany).
The final filtration figures for a good oil filter might be 99.5% BUT the initial clean figure might only be 97.5% for a Chinese copy (Or some so called long-life ones), BUT 98.5% for a dealer supplied filter. For every 1% increase efficiency that results from the filter absorbing dirt you often get a reduction of 50% in the amount of debris passing through the filter.

So perhaps after someone finds some better figures and works out the effect of leaving 20% of the oil behind, they can calculate if I might be incorrect about my severe service oil & filter change schedule. I did consider extending to a 15K oil & filter schedule, BUT I like real high TBN figures for a diesel in severe service applications and the cost of filter changes and using a high tech additive to top up the additives at 10K is a lot more and I think the fact the filter would only be half full (Probably less) is more of a negative factor.

The quick lube shop clips on U tube are a laugh as I watched one a while back where the salesman tried to convince a well educated owner that his oldish Volvo needed a new oil filter every 3,000 miles. The owner was going to pay the extra for a good full synthetic (It would have been an HC one in fact)but the car had a Mann filter on it rated at 10,000 miles so there was no need to change it for some Chinese or Mexican made engine killer. As soon as the lube shop pulled out an oil suction pipe the owner asked for his car back and did a very funny wheel spinning departure for the nearest real garage.

PS. Only owners that know nothing about their cars engine and what effects main block life expectancy use recommended service intervals. Sometimes you can exceed them (Eg air filter in a clean invironment) and sometimes you need to change the engine AND GEARBOX OIL more often than recommended. Not every manufacturer service interval is correct, for example Volvo say there is no need to change the gearbox oil, because they are concerned a quick lube shop will use poor quality oil, BUT you should in fact change it every 100K km (For Volvo, Castrol or Liqui Moly box oil only)for normal service and every 50K km if towing a lot. Every year at least one person in my riding club burns out an expensive gearbox towing heavy 2 horse trailers and then says the manufacturer makes bad boxes, BUT the oil is always the problem as it gets fried under continous heavy loads or when topped up with something nasty every service quick lube main service interval.

Originally Posted By: Falken
If 2 OCI is recommended practice and the filters are pricey, go for it if that is what you really want to do.

In all other applications, especially small gas cars, I change the filter with every OCI.

My logic is if you have a tear in the media, or the valves aren't operating properly and stuck shut, or the ADBV doesn't close well, the filter gets scrapped with each OCI.

If you have a bad filter and you do 2 OCIs each filter, you are piling on the wear if the filter isn't doing it's job, but I would guess that would be an extremely rare chance.

The downside of a UOA is if they come back clean, great. If you get a horrible one... Well, the engine took on some wear and the UOA costed you money.

Personally, I'd just spend the extra 20$ and change the filter at the same time. Engines are expensive...
 
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skyship: I don't see a problem doing the double run thing, especially since you have assured yourself of all the filter parameters. I also don't see an issue with a little old oil left in the engine. My only comment would be that it's rather a misguided notion that you can determine much about filtration by a UOA. A particle count is the only answer there. It might not tell you a whole lot useful unless you could compare a couple of filters. Still, it might be interesting to get a particle count on the first oil change and then again on the second and compare the results. Plus, there are general standard for oil cleanliness you could compare to. You would want to match as exactly as you could the OCI for a fair comparison.

You are in Blighty and using Blackstone? Are there no labs on your side of the pond?
 
I agree with Jim overall, but I would somewhat delineate the topic into a few sub-divisions.

Inputs and outputs:
Knowing oil lube properties (PDS) and such can speak to the propensity of any lube to succeed or fail, but UOAs speak to how well the lube actually did it's job.

Direct and indirect contributors:
Knowing how well a filter performs via a PC count certainly can tell us how well the filter cleaned the oil, but it does not tell us how well the oil protected the engine. Filtration efficiency only speaks to the filters ability to do it's direct work; that of cleaning particulate from the liquid medium. But again, UOAs tell us how well the oil did in reducing wear.

I certainly agree that a UOA is not a direct tell-tale indicator of how well a filter does in efficiency performance. But then again, filter efficiency does not tell me how well a lube does in protecting the equipment. You can have a GREAT filter, but if paired with a lousy lube, the engine (tranny, gearbox, whatever) isn't going to live long. Conversely, you could have a great lube, with poor filtration, and the equipment might be compromised as well.

Generally:
PC's speak directly to filter efficiency, and cannot speak to lube performance.
UOA's speak directly to lube performance, contamination, and other fluid characteristics.

I will acknowledge that "contamination" in a UOA is seen by many different views. We would call fuel dilution contamination. But we also call coolant ingress contamination as well. Same goes for silicon, which (if it's via air ingestion) could be particulate. Contaminiation can also be soot/insolubles.

We care about the whole system, as it operates as a package. How does the oil and filter do as a team?

So - which report (a UOA or a PC) better describes the overall team performance? In my opinion, a UOA. The UOA DIRECTLY describes and tells of wear metals. The particles in a UOA a typically small; always less than 5um in size from the perspective of spectral analysis. The vast majority of wear is predicted by small shifts that become large if neglected. If given a dead-man's choice of one or the other, I would want to know how my wear is doing in a UOA before I'd call for the PC.

Essentially, the output of a PC report (filter efficiency) is an input to the UOA process. PCs are fantastic tools for deciding which filter is better or worse than another filter; PCs speak directly to the effiency of the filter media. PCs help us decide which filter to use, relative to our goals. But PCs cannot tell us about wear; they can only predict how wear might be affected.

However, the UOA is the output telling us how well the entire system performed. UOAs do not speak to the filter directly, but they do infer some acceptable level of performance, or the wear would grossly spike. The differnce? A PC has zero ability to speak to the lube performance, but the UOA at least has an indirect ability to speak to filter performance. If I want to know how well one brand of filter compares to a different brand for some application, I'll head right to a PC report. But if I want to know how well the lube system is performing as a whole, I want a UOA.

And, most UOAs show us that filter selection has little effect in a "normal" OCI. Of all the data I've collected from many differnent sources over the last several years, I cannot find a direct relationship to predict how wear can be manipulated with a filter, using a UOA as the measuring stick.


OK - blah, blah, blah ... I realize I'm noodling this down probably too far.

In a nutshell -
Use a UOA to tell you how well the lube is working.
Use a PC to help you decide which filter to buy.
You cannot use the tools to make a direct comparison of the other characteristic. But you can infer the filter is at least doing a decent job, if the UOA is admirable.

That is my logic, anyway; YMMV.
 
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To add another noodle to what Dave said above, high efficiency filters tend to mask wear metals in a UOA. To do this, I think, requires a very efficient bypass system but some of the better primary filters are beginning to approach this level of efficiency... where they might influence the wear metals in a UOA.

I concur that if you have the option of only one oil evaluation tool, the UOA is it no question. My only point was that you can't tell much about filtration efficiency from it and that kinda what we were talking about.
 
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I should not have mentioned the UOA, as I only did so to demonstrate that the professionals don't disagree with doing oil only changes. You can tell something about the performance of an oil filter without paying for a more accurate test like particle count etc. If your Silicon and insolubles go down from the first oil change to the second, when the filter is changed, the filter is probably working in a more efficient manner. The wear metals in the UOA should also decline, but obiously there can be other factors involved in those results, like the air filter getting dirtier and stopping more Silicon contamination.

The EU oil analysis labs are expensive and they are not so reliable in terms of comments or answering follow up questions. They also do not have a good data base for comparison if you have a car rather than a truck. For my first UOA after purchasing my Volvo I wanted to see how it compared with the Renault main block figures, as no one had average figures for the type of diesel in the phase 2 V40. Blackstones did a good job of finding the data without me even telling them which other car had the same main block. Obviously there might be differences in the average UOA figures because Volvo detune (Less boost) the 1.9D from 130hp in the Laguna, to 115hp, which is a real plus in engine, transmission and tyre life terms, as it reduces the driver abuse factors, like wheel spinning standing starts.

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
skyship: I don't see a problem doing the double run thing, especially since you have assured yourself of all the filter parameters. I also don't see an issue with a little old oil left in the engine. My only comment would be that it's rather a misguided notion that you can determine much about filtration by a UOA. A particle count is the only answer there. It might not tell you a whole lot useful unless you could compare a couple of filters. Still, it might be interesting to get a particle count on the first oil change and then again on the second and compare the results. Plus, there are general standard for oil cleanliness you could compare to. You would want to match as exactly as you could the OCI for a fair comparison.

You are in Blighty and using Blackstone? Are there no labs on your side of the pond?
 
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