PAG oil for propane/isobutane (sold as replacement gas in r134a systems)

P

payne

Joined
Jul 27, 2023
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Ive got a 2006 Hyundai Santa Fe with a/c leak. I’m in Europe where propane based replacement gas is diy legal for r134a systems. The little cans say they are completely compatible with r134a. I don’t think the gas is exactly the same as r290 but similar. I have read that r290 needs POE oil wheras PAG oil is used with r134a. The two oils can’t be mixed.
If I replace my compressor and refill gas only with this replacement product, can I use PAG in the compressor? Or must I use POE? (But I cant find POE anywhere in the EU)
thanks in advance
Ps please no comment on safety, I’ve done my research.
 
Wouldn’t the manufacturer of the product be able to tell you this?

And you might PM a moderator to move this to the mechanical section. It isn’t about cooling systems and additives.
 
it’s about air conditioning… or am I misunderstanding the meaning of the phrase “cooling systems?

I would ask the manufacturer, if I could…
 
payne said:
it’s about air conditioning… or am I misunderstanding the meaning of the phrase “cooling systems?

I would ask the manufacturer, if I could…
Click to expand...
Yeah cooling here means the engine cooling system (radiator, coolant, etc.)

And oh I see. When you said “the little cans” I thought it was a commercial product. Or do you mean they are out of business?
 
Doh of course it means cooling systems, I’m so stupid. 😖

Yes the tiny cans they sell on Amazon. I cant find a contact for the manufacturer.
 
POE is also used in hybrid cars AC with electric compressors. Even Hyundais. We used Castrol Icematic back in the day but that is discontinued.

Why not get the system repaired (it's usually the condensor on santa fe's) and refilled with R134a? a lot cheaper than rep^lacing a compressor and still having to deal with leaks
 
For auto AC a mix of propane and isobutane is needed.

It does work well for R-12 systems, not sure why one would run it in a 134a system since 134a is relatively cheap and available.

I know historically it was said not to mix certain oils. POE was part of that, but I’m not sure it’s considered the case now. Even supercool claims their ester is compatible.

supercool.ac

Ester Oil with U/V Dye Quart - TSI Supercool

Synthetic ester lubricant provides excellent lubricity and compressor protectionIncludes additive to prevent acid formation and corrosionIncludes O-ring
supercool.ac supercool.ac

IMG_6300.jpeg


I’m not sure that 290 has a miscibility issue with pag. I’d be more concerned that some 290 sellers say to not charge into a vacuum. So you then have air and moisture in there. That will break down even double end capped pag and Poe.
 
The pressure temperature curve of propane doesn't come close to matching that of R134a. Also the expansion valve or orifice tube won't be suited for it either.

At any rate hydrocarbon refrigerants like propane (R290) are compatible with any oil.
 
because it’s not legal in the EU to release r234a or work with it if you aren’t certified. The ac is broken. We are driving on holiday into a heatwave and the workshop has no open slot to fix it. So I have to do it myself.
As regards hardware compatibility, Propane works better than r134a in a system designed for r134a
 
Jetronic said:
POE is also used in hybrid cars AC with electric compressors. Even Hyundais. We used Castrol Icematic back in the day but that is discontinued.

Why not get the system repaired (it's usually the condensor on santa fe's) and refilled with R134a? a lot cheaper than rep^lacing a compressor and still having to deal with leaks
Click to expand...
Already replaced condense….
 
payne said:
because it’s not legal in the EU to release r234a or work with it if you aren’t certified. The ac is broken. We are driving on holiday into a heatwave and the workshop has no open slot to fix it. So I have to do it myself.
As regards hardware compatibility, Propane works better than r134a in a system designed for r134a
Click to expand...
It’s not legal in the USA to release 134a either. It’s also the law to fix a leak before filling.

I’m not sure propane itself works better. There are reasons why these things are blends, and if you have a leak they will fractionate and create bigger issues.
 
Ok its evident there is conflicting information out there as to the most appropriate a/c oil to use with propane. is there a date on that gasservi document? I’ll have to assume the most recent is the most accurate.
so if PAG is appropriate, which weight? 46? 100? 150?
 
Like in Europe, hydrocarbon refrigerant for vehicle use is legal in Canada. I’ve converted my system to it. There is no equipment change required but it’s best to start with a totally evacuated system and a new accumulator. I’m currently using PAG lubricant. The brand of refrigerant I use is Red Tek 12A sold by one of the largest automobile part retailers in Canada, named Canadian Tire and it’s been marketed for at least 10 years, possibly more. The temp here the other day was over 100 F. It’s true the characteristics are different and a smaller weight of product is required. The weight conversion is described on the can.

It is not subject to any regulations regarding releasing it to to the atmosphere other than don’t release it to a confined space or source of flame. Since it’s legal to release it, it works well with do-it yourself You Tube Mechanics when they are trying to fix leaks. It’s sold in those small 6 oz cans. My current vent temp is 44 F at 90 F ambient. R134A is no longer sold at the retail level to consumers in Canada AFAIK.
 
Last edited:
Snagglefoot said:
Like in Europe, hydrocarbon refrigerant for vehicle use is legal in Canada. I’ve converted my system to it. There is no equipment change required but it’s best to start with a totally evacuated system and a new accumulator. I’m currently using PAG lubricant. The brand of refrigerant I use is Red Tek 12A sold by one of the largest automobile part retailers in Canada, named Canadian Tire and it’s been marketed for at least ten years, possibly more. The temp here the other day was over 100 F. It’s true the characteristics are different and a smaller weight of product is required. The weight conversion is described on the can.

It is not subject to any regulations regarding releasing it to to the atmosphere other than don’t release it to a confined space or source of flame. Since it’s legal to release it, it works well with do-it yourself You Tube Mechanics when they are trying to fix leaks. It’s sold in those small 6 oz cans. My current vent temp is 44 F at 90 F ambient. R134A is no longer sold at the retail level to consumers in Canada AFAIK.
Click to expand...
What PAG weight are you using? And how long ago?
 
payne said:
because it’s not legal in the EU to release r234a or work with it if you aren’t certified. The ac is broken. We are driving on holiday into a heatwave and the workshop has no open slot to fix it. So I have to do it myself.
As regards hardware compatibility, Propane works better than r134a in a system designed for r134a
Click to expand...
It’s illegal to work with it here unless certified. Also illegal to release it into the atmosphere…but you have already solved that problem by virtue of the leak.

Honest question - how hard is it to get certified? I read a book, took an online test, paid $50, got certified. AC systems aren’t rocket science, but you do have to understand how they work and how to service them.

The online course was well worth it. I can buy refrigerant, and legally work on the system.

Since all my cars are R-134A, I’ve got a 14kg cylinder, manifold gauges, scale (the best way to refill is by weight) and vacuum pump. Together, they all cost about what a shop charges for work.

I just replaced the receiver/drier and some o-rings on the XC90, added 30ml of oil (recommended when replacing that part, 200 ml total capacity) pulled a vacuum, it held vacuum for an hour, so I refilled it.

It was nearly 100F here yesterday, with similar humidity, and the system is working great.

Edit: The PO stated that the shop couldn’t find the leak, so they just refilled it every year. Well, it was the receiver drier o rings. But you have to remove the front bumper to get at it...you can’t even see the top of it with the body in place. No wonder they couldn’t find the leak.
IMG_2208.jpeg
 
Last edited:
Astro14 said:
The PO stated that the shop couldn’t find the leak, so they just refilled it every year. Well, it was the receiver drier o rings. But you have to remove the front bumper to get atit...you can’t even see the top of it with the body in place. No wonder they couldn’t find the leak.
Click to expand...

curious, how did you find the o rings leak? UV light, soap bubbles?
 
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