Oils that don't shear out of grade, shared sump

[Mackelroy]

Its real simple to run 1 bottle of the higher viscosity, for longevity.

Is a 10w/30 weight better than a 10w40 that shears to a 30 weight?

Like FK no!

30 weight is [censored] in a motorcycle no matter whether is came from shear or it doesn't. When it becomes a 30 weight ditch it.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Robenstein



Heard it more than once....still don't believe it since out of grade 5w40 has set off Triumph oil lights at a hot idle.



You still haven't mentioned what psi your Triumph oil light sets off...



And I told you it is around 4psi. One expert on the Triumph forums has seen them come on at 6 and some at 2. Either way....that is too low for an 1100rpm idle.

 

[Robenstein]

Busylittleshop said that no motor will blow if the oil is off by 3 cSt. The difference between a straight 30 and a straight 10 at 212 degrees is right about 4. And I can tell you that motor wont even survive on a 20 weight long.

 

[DrDave]

Racers run a 10wt oil all the time. I have a friend that has been racing small block chev's since the 50's. They used 10wt oil then and still do it today.

Dave

 

[DrDave]

Mackelroy:

In a word, why?

Dave

 

[sunruh]

what i have found is this:

1) DO NOT BELIEVE ***ANY*** marketing of an oil product at all!!!
2) read 1 again
3) no re-read 1 again
4) sometimes you get shocked by the performance of a product, sometimes you dont. ie when cheap produces way better results than expensive.
5) sometimes you do get what you pay for, but usually not.
6) not all motors are the same. some can kill an oil in 50 miles and some can go 5000+ on the same oil and see no issues at all
7) think about who pays the bills on what is spinning between your ankles. ie is it you and that crank is spinning 13,000 rpm?
8) i will laugh at you when you say "cost is not an object" and then you dont want to spend $14.99 a quart and dump it every weekend.
9) sometimes it takes many many tests to find the right oil for your motor. sometimes it does not - which means yours is easy on oil.
10) its just oil, what could go wrong?...read 7 again.
11) this list goes to 11!!! 2 wheels down is MUCH better than 2 wheels up. ride safe my friends.

steve - 80+ uoa tests

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: DrDave
Racers run a 10wt oil all the time. I have a friend that has been racing small block chev's since the 50's. They used 10wt oil then and still do it today.

Dave



Race engines are not made for longevity and are rebuilt often. They run thin oil to eek out every last little bit of power and experience accelerated wear. The 10wt racing oils you see in today's superstock engines are also never meant for street use for a reason. They are just packed with anti wear additives to make up for the lack of film strength. We refresh our A gasser big block after every season even using 25w50 Pennzoil GT racing oil. That is an apples to oranges difference in terms of the application. We are talking production street machines here.

 

[Spur]

Here is a thought. I am guessing the SAE certified engineers and engine designers are quite knowledgable about the shearing of oil. Especially in a shared sump environment. My guess is that when they specify a certain viscosity oil to be used, they have taken the shear stability into consideration. Lubrication is all about flow most of the time.

Just a thought. I am guessing the designers are pretty smart folks, like I find on here.

 

[Robenstein]

It is a balance between flow, film strength, and additives for wear.

If it was all about flow we would be all using even thinner oils that we do today.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein


And I told you it is around 4psi. One expert on the Triumph forums has seen them come on at 6 and some at 2. Either way....that is too low for an 1100rpm idle.



Thanks Rob...
Like my Honda RC45 most motorcycle oil lights illuminated at 0 psi...
0 psi is an instant problem and requires immediate action before
its to late because your engine is not being lubricated and wear is
soon to follow... if Triumph's oil light momentarily flicks on you still
have pressure and your engine is still under the protection of
lubrication... it requires monitoring to see if the flicking light goes
steady... if the light extinguishes with increase rpms then the problem
is low idle and not cause for alarm that your oil has sheared a grade which
is a miniscule 3 cSt in viscosity flow...


Mobil 1 0w30 at 203F Oil flowing 10 psi... at 0 psi the red oil light illuminates...

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: sunruh

7) think about who pays the bills on what is spinning between your ankles. ie is it you and that crank is spinning 13,000 rpm?



If your crank is spinning 13,00rpms then a 30w flows more oil at higher rpms which flows
more oil between the critical bearings which carries away more heat and you're not
wasting HP just pumping oil through the blow off valve...

0w30 psi
1000 10
2000 20
3000 30
4000 40
5000 50
6000 60
7000 70
8000 80
9000 90
10000 99
11000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve... perfect

0w40
1000 12
2000 24
3000 36
4000 48
5000 72
6000 84
7000 96
8000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve... too early
9000 99
10000 99
11000 99

15W50 psi
1000 15
2000 30
3000 45
4000 60
5000 75
6000 90
7000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve... way to early
8000 99
9000 99
10000 99
11000 99

You see to understand the real world relationship between pressure and flow I went to
trouble to installed a digital oil pressure gauge on MrRC45 to know... 0w30 at 8000 rpms
82 Psi close enough to perfect...

 

[Robenstein]

I disagree...if your light is being tickled and comes on at 2psi and you are running at 1,100 rpm, you are not having adequate protection and engine damage will result. And that is not me talking, that is the company that designed and built the engine.

 

[Robenstein]

What works in one example of a Honda RC45 is not a rule of thumb for all bikes. As I have said... try running 10w30 in a Twin Cam harley for a while on a hot summer day. Flow is not everything. Depending on the type of engine you have and the way it was engineered or built, you need to strike a balance between several factors such as film strength, flow, and additive package.

 

[Spur]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
It is a balance between flow, film strength, and additives for wear.

If it was all about flow we would be all using even thinner oils that we do today.


Correct, but we are finding that thinner oils can be used and we have been moving that direction for a while now. Certainly film strength and additives are part of the balance. But, hydrodynamic lubrication relies largely on flow.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein


If it was all about flow we would be all using even thinner oils that we do today.

It is all about flow because our oil was graded only by cSt flow
tester and that flow is not a measurement of thick and thin... so we
are debating oil in terms of cSt which means a quantity of oil was
heated to a standard temp and the rate of flow was recorded by a stop
watch... this flow-rate is governed by resistance of the oil flowing
under gravity through the capillary tube, this test actually measures
an oil’s kinematic viscosity. The viscosity is typically reported in
centistokes (cSt), and is calculated from the time it takes oil to
flow from the starting point to the stopping point using a calibration
constant supplied for each tube... so a drop of one grade which is
only a 3 cSt difference in flow is nothing to fear...

Visible Flow comparison among the Oil grades... you want the freest flowing Oil
recommended in your owners manual...

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
I disagree...if your light is being tickled and comes on at 2psi and you are running at 1,100 rpm, you are not having adequate protection and engine damage will result. And that is not me talking, that is the company that designed and built the engine.


Mercy Rob... If you wish to know for sure that your light ticked at 2 psi then install an
oil pressure gauge and show us the rpms in a photo... then we'll invite Trimumph to comment...

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
I disagree...if your light is being tickled and comes on at 2psi and you are running at 1,100 rpm, you are not having adequate protection and engine damage will result. And that is not me talking, that is the company that designed and built the engine.


Mercy Rob... If you wish to know for sure that your light ticked at 2 psi then install an
oil pressure gauge and show us the rpms in a photo... then we'll invite Trimumph to comment...


I defer to the man who did the testing on the Triumph forums. Unlike you sir...I do not have the extra thickness in my wallet to play Russian roulette with my toys in terms of lubrication. I trust the good people over there in Hinkley England to tell me the thinnest oil I can safely run at all temperatures.

 

[DrDave]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
What works in one example of a Honda RC45 is not a rule of thumb for all bikes. As I have said... try running 10w30 in a Twin Cam harley for a while on a hot summer day. Flow is not everything. Depending on the type of engine you have and the way it was engineered or built, you need to strike a balance between several factors such as film strength, flow, and additive package.


I've run 10-30 in my Sporty for quite a while. The UOA comes back with the lowest wear numbers of any previous oil used. I'm seeing lower wear and lower temperatures.

Dave

 

[DrDave]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
I disagree...if your light is being tickled and comes on at 2psi and you are running at 1,100 rpm, you are not having adequate protection and engine damage will result. And that is not me talking, that is the company that designed and built the engine.


Mercy Rob... If you wish to know for sure that your light ticked at 2 psi then install an
oil pressure gauge and show us the rpms in a photo... then we'll invite Trimumph to comment...


I defer to the man who did the testing on the Triumph forums. Unlike you sir...I do not have the extra thickness in my wallet to play Russian roulette with my toys in terms of lubrication. I trust the good people over there in Hinkley England to tell me the thinnest oil I can safely run at all temperatures.


If you were to employ some independent, critical thinking on your own you would see that the objective evidence in front of you is countercurrent to the "experts" that are espousing unfounded old wives tales. I think Larry has provided some nice objective evidence of his findings. The thickness of his wallet has nothing to do with it. Let's not inject class warfare into the mix, it's just oil.

Dave

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: DrDave
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
What works in one example of a Honda RC45 is not a rule of thumb for all bikes. As I have said... try running 10w30 in a Twin Cam harley for a while on a hot summer day. Flow is not everything. Depending on the type of engine you have and the way it was engineered or built, you need to strike a balance between several factors such as film strength, flow, and additive package.


I've run 10-30 in my Sporty for quite a while. The UOA comes back with the lowest wear numbers of any previous oil used. I'm seeing lower wear and lower temperatures.

Dave


A sporty is an EVO not a Twin Cam. Twin Cams are known for be harder on oil and run hotter than the EVO engines ever did. And there is no way I am going to run an oil that when sheared will trip my oil pressure warning light which is known to come on at very LOW psi's.

And thickness of a wallet does have a big part to play in why I wont do it. I cannot afford to replace the bike if I bust it. Nothing class warfare about not having a ton of disposable income.