peter daniel - If anyone leaves the rotary community, it will likely be because of attitudes people display, not the engine.
Oil related failure in the Renesis rotary engine
- Thread starter OMCWankel
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
- Messages
- 29,558
I`ve known people who`ve had the last generation RX-7 TT`s and those things are BEASTS!!!!!!!!!!! They`ve always used dino 20w50s and never had any engine problems whatsoever. I`d love to get my hands on one of those! One of my dream cars for sure!!!!
Let me be pedantic and technical just for a moment. Technically, the term "rotary engine" refers to those aircraft engines where the pistons actually rotate around the crankshaft, while a Wankel engine is what Mazda uses.
Originally Posted By: caveatipse
Let me be pedantic and technical just for a moment. Technically, the term "rotary engine" refers to those aircraft engines where the pistons actually rotate around the crankshaft, while a Wankel engine is what Mazda uses.
Wankel is the man who made the Rotary Engine. Mazda's engine has rotors that rotate around the crankshaft.
It is a Rotary engine.
Let me be pedantic and technical just for a moment. Technically, the term "rotary engine" refers to those aircraft engines where the pistons actually rotate around the crankshaft, while a Wankel engine is what Mazda uses.
Wankel is the man who made the Rotary Engine. Mazda's engine has rotors that rotate around the crankshaft.
It is a Rotary engine.
Originally Posted By: rg200amp
Originally Posted By: caveatipse
Let me be pedantic and technical just for a moment. Technically, the term "rotary engine" refers to those aircraft engines where the pistons actually rotate around the crankshaft, while a Wankel engine is what Mazda uses.
Wankel is the man who made the Rotary Engine. Mazda's engine has rotors that rotate around the crankshaft.
It is a Rotary engine.
I humbly disagree. Yes, Wankel invented the engine. However, in technical engine terminology, "rotary" refers to rotating pistons, not rotors, and is used on aircraft. "Wankel engine" refers to rotating rotors, not pistons.
Originally Posted By: caveatipse
Let me be pedantic and technical just for a moment. Technically, the term "rotary engine" refers to those aircraft engines where the pistons actually rotate around the crankshaft, while a Wankel engine is what Mazda uses.
Wankel is the man who made the Rotary Engine. Mazda's engine has rotors that rotate around the crankshaft.
It is a Rotary engine.
I humbly disagree. Yes, Wankel invented the engine. However, in technical engine terminology, "rotary" refers to rotating pistons, not rotors, and is used on aircraft. "Wankel engine" refers to rotating rotors, not pistons.
Originally Posted By: caveatipse
Originally Posted By: rg200amp
Originally Posted By: caveatipse
Let me be pedantic and technical just for a moment. Technically, the term "rotary engine" refers to those aircraft engines where the pistons actually rotate around the crankshaft, while a Wankel engine is what Mazda uses.
Wankel is the man who made the Rotary Engine. Mazda's engine has rotors that rotate around the crankshaft.
It is a Rotary engine.
I humbly disagree. Yes, Wankel invented the engine. However, in technical engine terminology, "rotary" refers to rotating pistons, not rotors, and is used on aircraft. "Wankel engine" refers to rotating rotors, not pistons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Wankel_engine
EVERY wankel engine, including the one in the Rx8 is a Rotary. As it lists EVERY engine Wankel made. NOT one uses your "Pistons"
They use Rotors, that rotate, thus the name Rotary engine.
Originally Posted By: rg200amp
Originally Posted By: caveatipse
Let me be pedantic and technical just for a moment. Technically, the term "rotary engine" refers to those aircraft engines where the pistons actually rotate around the crankshaft, while a Wankel engine is what Mazda uses.
Wankel is the man who made the Rotary Engine. Mazda's engine has rotors that rotate around the crankshaft.
It is a Rotary engine.
I humbly disagree. Yes, Wankel invented the engine. However, in technical engine terminology, "rotary" refers to rotating pistons, not rotors, and is used on aircraft. "Wankel engine" refers to rotating rotors, not pistons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Wankel_engine
EVERY wankel engine, including the one in the Rx8 is a Rotary. As it lists EVERY engine Wankel made. NOT one uses your "Pistons"
They use Rotors, that rotate, thus the name Rotary engine.
Last edited:
I say, good riddance. The world has enough problems already dealing with dingbats, morons and stupidity. If those same people want nothing to do with the rotary engine, they I say C-YA!!
Yes, the rotary does not have the same life span as a piston engine. ONCE AGAIN, if the buyer had ANY clue or mechanical knowledge or understanding, then would see an engine that produces 180 hp per liter, that produces 3 power "strokes" per crank rev and only has 3 moving parts. It also uses oil by design. It requires special care. It requires shifting at 6-7K rpm.. THAT IS PERFECTLY NORMAL!!!
And if all you want is a brain dead experience and want nothing to do with being a part of the machine, then it is not for you. Then again, the way I look at it, its not a question of if the Rotary is right for you... Are YOU right for the rotary... and you won't hurt my feelings one bit if you say or the answer is NO.
Mazda for awhile was buying back RX-8's because of peoples complaints about oil usage and flooding. They bought them back 100%. And this is straight from 3 GM's and Service Managers mouth... The cars were tested and found to be in perfect operating condition. They bought them back anyways, so that they can ( and I quote " To shut them up already.. it was worth buying back the cars, so they would stop flooding the service bay with bogus warranty claims in which nothing was ever found other than operator error. end quote.
In other words, go buy a nice boring toyota.
Yes, the rotary does not have the same life span as a piston engine. ONCE AGAIN, if the buyer had ANY clue or mechanical knowledge or understanding, then would see an engine that produces 180 hp per liter, that produces 3 power "strokes" per crank rev and only has 3 moving parts. It also uses oil by design. It requires special care. It requires shifting at 6-7K rpm.. THAT IS PERFECTLY NORMAL!!!
And if all you want is a brain dead experience and want nothing to do with being a part of the machine, then it is not for you. Then again, the way I look at it, its not a question of if the Rotary is right for you... Are YOU right for the rotary... and you won't hurt my feelings one bit if you say or the answer is NO.
Mazda for awhile was buying back RX-8's because of peoples complaints about oil usage and flooding. They bought them back 100%. And this is straight from 3 GM's and Service Managers mouth... The cars were tested and found to be in perfect operating condition. They bought them back anyways, so that they can ( and I quote " To shut them up already.. it was worth buying back the cars, so they would stop flooding the service bay with bogus warranty claims in which nothing was ever found other than operator error. end quote.
In other words, go buy a nice boring toyota.
Last edited:
I'd rather buy a SPEED3.
Last edited:
Those are sweet.. Wait for the 2010 Speed3 though..
Absolutely. Actually, I think I'm waiting for the 2011 Ford Focus, less horsepower but much better mileage???
Originally Posted By: caveatipse
Let me be pedantic and technical just for a moment. Technically, the term "rotary engine" refers to those aircraft engines where the pistons actually rotate around the crankshaft, while a Wankel engine is what Mazda uses.
FYI: Those aircraft engines are "radial" engines.
Let me be pedantic and technical just for a moment. Technically, the term "rotary engine" refers to those aircraft engines where the pistons actually rotate around the crankshaft, while a Wankel engine is what Mazda uses.
FYI: Those aircraft engines are "radial" engines.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: moklock
Originally Posted By: caveatipse
Let me be pedantic and technical just for a moment. Technically, the term "rotary engine" refers to those aircraft engines where the pistons actually rotate around the crankshaft, while a Wankel engine is what Mazda uses.
FYI: Those aircraft engines are "radial" engines.
Correct.
Radial Engine:
Originally Posted By: caveatipse
Let me be pedantic and technical just for a moment. Technically, the term "rotary engine" refers to those aircraft engines where the pistons actually rotate around the crankshaft, while a Wankel engine is what Mazda uses.
FYI: Those aircraft engines are "radial" engines.
Correct.
Radial Engine:
Last edited by a moderator:
There were rotary radials where the entire crankcase and cylinders rotated around a stationary crankshaft. They were true rotary engines.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A16EW19oR6k
Various forms of engines were manufactured such as Watt's version of a steam engine based on the workings of a vane compressor. That was a rotary engine.
Mazda's "piston" Nutates around a central crankshaft. This is not a true rotary motion.
However I still call them ring-dings...erm I mean rotaries.
As I would the rambler renault multilobe thing from the 60s/70s.
Interestingly, most "rotaries" use one more lobe in the combustion chamber than on the rotor...Felix' had three love rotor, two lobe chamber.
Unfortunately, seal length per unit swept volume dooms all of these concepts (including sarich' orbital engine) to novelty status.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A16EW19oR6k
Various forms of engines were manufactured such as Watt's version of a steam engine based on the workings of a vane compressor. That was a rotary engine.
Mazda's "piston" Nutates around a central crankshaft. This is not a true rotary motion.
However I still call them ring-dings...erm I mean rotaries.
As I would the rambler renault multilobe thing from the 60s/70s.
Interestingly, most "rotaries" use one more lobe in the combustion chamber than on the rotor...Felix' had three love rotor, two lobe chamber.
Unfortunately, seal length per unit swept volume dooms all of these concepts (including sarich' orbital engine) to novelty status.
I generally do not consider Wikipedia reliable, but since it was cited:
"The rotary engine was an early type of internal-combustion engine in which the crankshaft remained stationary and the entire cylinder block rotated around it. The design was used mostly in the years shortly before and during World War I to power aircraft, and also saw use in a few early motorcycles and cars."
"Rotary and radial engines look strikingly similar when they are not running and can easily be confused, since both have cylinders arranged radially around a central crankshaft. Unlike the rotary engine, however, radial engines use a conventional rotating crankshaft in a fixed engine block."
"The rotary engine was an early type of internal-combustion engine in which the crankshaft remained stationary and the entire cylinder block rotated around it. The design was used mostly in the years shortly before and during World War I to power aircraft, and also saw use in a few early motorcycles and cars."
"Rotary and radial engines look strikingly similar when they are not running and can easily be confused, since both have cylinders arranged radially around a central crankshaft. Unlike the rotary engine, however, radial engines use a conventional rotating crankshaft in a fixed engine block."
Originally Posted By: moklock
Originally Posted By: caveatipse
Let me be pedantic and technical just for a moment. Technically, the term "rotary engine" refers to those aircraft engines where the pistons actually rotate around the crankshaft, while a Wankel engine is what Mazda uses.
FYI: Those aircraft engines are "radial" engines.
No. Radial engines have a fixed crankcase with fixed cylinders and the crankshaft rotates, just like in an ordinary V-type, inline, or opposed piston engine. The cylinders are arranged in a circle (or multiple circles the P&W R-4360 had 4 circles of 7 cylinders each) around the crankshaft. Each "row" has one piston which attaches to the crank with a more-or-less conventional looking rod, called the "master rod." All of the other cylinders in that row use "articulated rods" which attach to the master rod via pins similar to a piston wrist-pin.
Cut-away 4-row R-4360:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW9irTeaAK8
Radial engines were used in many world-warII aircraft and in 50s airliners. B-17s, B-24s, Hellcats, Bearcats, Constellations, and P-47s were all powered by radial engines.
A rotary engine is one in which the crankshaft is bolted to the frame of the airplane, and the propeller is bolted to the crankCASE. The whole crankcase *spins* as the engine runs As weird as that seems to the modern mind, it was fairly common back in the World-War ONE time frame.
http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/rotary-theory.htm
In this video, you can see the finned cylinders rotating along with the prop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88p2xSOrEK8&feature=related
And I agree- the things Mazda builds are properly called Wankel engines, but the term rotary is common-use and since no one is building the original type of rotary engine anymore, fighting that misnomer is probably a lost cause.
Originally Posted By: caveatipse
Let me be pedantic and technical just for a moment. Technically, the term "rotary engine" refers to those aircraft engines where the pistons actually rotate around the crankshaft, while a Wankel engine is what Mazda uses.
FYI: Those aircraft engines are "radial" engines.
No. Radial engines have a fixed crankcase with fixed cylinders and the crankshaft rotates, just like in an ordinary V-type, inline, or opposed piston engine. The cylinders are arranged in a circle (or multiple circles the P&W R-4360 had 4 circles of 7 cylinders each) around the crankshaft. Each "row" has one piston which attaches to the crank with a more-or-less conventional looking rod, called the "master rod." All of the other cylinders in that row use "articulated rods" which attach to the master rod via pins similar to a piston wrist-pin.
Cut-away 4-row R-4360:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW9irTeaAK8
Radial engines were used in many world-warII aircraft and in 50s airliners. B-17s, B-24s, Hellcats, Bearcats, Constellations, and P-47s were all powered by radial engines.
A rotary engine is one in which the crankshaft is bolted to the frame of the airplane, and the propeller is bolted to the crankCASE. The whole crankcase *spins* as the engine runs As weird as that seems to the modern mind, it was fairly common back in the World-War ONE time frame.
http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/rotary-theory.htm
In this video, you can see the finned cylinders rotating along with the prop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88p2xSOrEK8&feature=related
And I agree- the things Mazda builds are properly called Wankel engines, but the term rotary is common-use and since no one is building the original type of rotary engine anymore, fighting that misnomer is probably a lost cause.
Last edited:
An interesting discourse to be sure!
I did do my homework. I studied the RX7 information and what information was available on the Renesis at the time (2004). The RX7 was a better design IMHO. Many motors lasted 150-200K before rebuild. The hot oil tip for the RX7 was 15W40 diesel oil and frequent redline use. Due to the Renesis being designed for 5W20 oil, I did not know if the oil enjection pump was capable of properly metering 15W40, or I would have used it. I chose the Renesis due to my previous experience with the Wankel engine, which was successful. The choice of automatic transmission was due to the bumper to bumper traffic in the Houston area where I lived at the time. I greatly prefer manual transmissions. I rigorously maintained the RX8 and never flooded the engine. Some of my earlier UOA’s are here on BITOG.
The Renesis design was different than the RX7 in significant ways. The ports are no longer in the rotor housing, but rather in the rotor side plates. The Renesis design was optimized for low emissions. The design changes were to make it live with less oil injection, less lubrication to the seals. My experiments with alternative oils were by choice, with the consultation of two experts. Those experts were proven wrong in my case. I accept responsibility for these choices and the failure of the motor. This thread is to inform those who are interested that there are oil choices that do not work in the Renesis.
Avelectro, I also put a muffin fan behind my single oil cooler. I wrote a thread on RX8Club describing the fan I chose and the procedure. It did help bring down oil temperatures sitting in bumper to bumper traffic.
I did do my homework. I studied the RX7 information and what information was available on the Renesis at the time (2004). The RX7 was a better design IMHO. Many motors lasted 150-200K before rebuild. The hot oil tip for the RX7 was 15W40 diesel oil and frequent redline use. Due to the Renesis being designed for 5W20 oil, I did not know if the oil enjection pump was capable of properly metering 15W40, or I would have used it. I chose the Renesis due to my previous experience with the Wankel engine, which was successful. The choice of automatic transmission was due to the bumper to bumper traffic in the Houston area where I lived at the time. I greatly prefer manual transmissions. I rigorously maintained the RX8 and never flooded the engine. Some of my earlier UOA’s are here on BITOG.
The Renesis design was different than the RX7 in significant ways. The ports are no longer in the rotor housing, but rather in the rotor side plates. The Renesis design was optimized for low emissions. The design changes were to make it live with less oil injection, less lubrication to the seals. My experiments with alternative oils were by choice, with the consultation of two experts. Those experts were proven wrong in my case. I accept responsibility for these choices and the failure of the motor. This thread is to inform those who are interested that there are oil choices that do not work in the Renesis.
Avelectro, I also put a muffin fan behind my single oil cooler. I wrote a thread on RX8Club describing the fan I chose and the procedure. It did help bring down oil temperatures sitting in bumper to bumper traffic.
Syn motor oils produce harder deposits.
So what's the plan now w/ the RX8?
Early model RX-8 engines (Renesis) (mainly 2004-2005) had oil metering pump issues (low quantity) and quality control issues, esp with clearances in the side seals.
They are now warranted for 100,000 miles/8 years.
There is talk of a larger displacement two rotor engine (1.6L) in the works that will increase torque and improve fuel economy.
Will it see the light of day with current RX-8 sales what they are (very, very low)....only time will tell.
They are now warranted for 100,000 miles/8 years.
There is talk of a larger displacement two rotor engine (1.6L) in the works that will increase torque and improve fuel economy.
Will it see the light of day with current RX-8 sales what they are (very, very low)....only time will tell.
The 1.6L should see the light of day because the RX8 is an entertaining little car.
The additional displacement is the right prescription for the competition's increased power over the past few years.
The gas mileage issue is the real deal killer.
The additional displacement is the right prescription for the competition's increased power over the past few years.
The gas mileage issue is the real deal killer.
- Status
